Comparison of Irish clubs in Europe versus Scottish clubs in Europe

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

The GAA is mostly middle class? Someone pass me the smelling salts to wake this lad up! It's mostly rural? So is Ireland as a whole mostly rural. Would-be Irish speaking? You need to get out of Dublin more, seriously! Rugby. Now there's a middle class sport. Not all, but mainly it is. Most of the top teams are fee paying schools etc. I can't say the Ireland rugby team don't represent me. Of course they do, whether I like it or not. Ireland is made up of middle class and working class people. There are urban and rural areas. It's Ireland. Some of it might not fall under my category but it's still my country and they're still my people. Such bitterness and polarisation, I feel sorry for such angry bitter people, really I do.

There will be 60,000 Dublin fans at this mostly rural sport the weekend, explain that....

I was brought up in a working class housing estate in Dublin. The only place I ever encountered the GAA and the Irish Language was in school; from teachers. I played GAA but no-one I know ever really cared about it.

And yes, the GAA is strongest in rural areas - it's the sport of the more or less rural lower middle class - Gardai, teachers, Nurses, civil servants, farmers and the children of farmers in one of the previously mentioned lines of work.

Ireland is a rural country - in the sense that it never had an industrial revolution that gave rise to the urban working class areas that give rise to great football players and teams - sure, yeah, for the purposes of understanding where support for football comes from, Ireland is historically a mostly rural country.

There are exceptions - Dublin being the most obvious - the complaints that the LoI is mostly Dublin based point to the existence of a football - following urban working class.

GAA is supported in Dublin, sure, but show me a map and I will point to you with a fair degree of accuracy where they come from in Dublin.

Ultimately, what I'm talking about are not individual fans and players at any rate - I'm talking about the institutional (schools, media, state) prejudice that results in preferential treatment for GAA over soccer - individuals left to their own devices will play and watch what they want but more often than not people will carry this prejudice against soccer around with them and it really comes into effect when decisions are made as to the allocation of resources - who gets a grant, who gets a big sponsorship deal, who gets their stadium done up, who gets reported first on the news.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 11:23 AM

The reason get the GAA get so much funding is it's the second most played sport in Ireland and the biggest spectator sport by a mile. Have you the figures of how much each sport gets? I'm pretty sure soccer gets a lot more than 25% of what GAA gets.

The GAA is the 'official' sport of the state and the 'plain people of Ireland'

They're Ireland's national games, but official? No. A second ago it was a middle class sport. Make your mind up.

not only that, it is a sport that was explicitly anti-English until very recently

The rule barring 'foreign' sports end fourty years ago.

They get the most support, great publicity, grants, gear and grounds that the LoI can only dream of.

They get the most support? Boo hoo, people like the sport and get off their backside to support. What a cry baby.

Great publicity. Maybe something to do with the above? People support it, so the people out making the news wanna make money so what do they report on?

Grants? Something to do with the amount of folk who play it and watch it being the largest? Maybe the fact their facilities are used by the community and are usually the vocal point for all rural communities.

Their grounds? They built them themselves, of course with some state support, but have a look at how much the state paid towards the Aviva towards what they paid towards Croke Park. And who built Tallaght? How much did Rovers pay? The GAA built the fifth largest stadium in Europe, with less state support than given for the Aviva, which had TWO sporting associations paying for it. That's ambition and you wanna knock them for it?! Bitter? You? Nah, not much!

The reason I say you're bitter is because of your unreasonable arguments, like those above.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by born2bwild

people will carry this prejudice against soccer around with them and it really comes into effect when decisions are made as to the allocation of resources - who gets a grant, who gets a big sponsorship deal, who gets their stadium done up, who gets reported first on the news.

Sponsorship deal? I can't be bothered with the rest of your post because I've addressed that and think the GAA represents the country just fine. Mostly rural support because Ireland is a mostly rural country. Simple. But sponsorship deal? Now companies do this to make money. They don't sponsor the GAA before anything to do with soccer because they hate soccer. The do it because GAA as a spectator sport is much more popular than soccer so that's where they invest their money. If folk aren't investing in your sport that's to do with you. Make it more attractive for sponsors and they'll come. What matters to them is the bottom line - money/profit.

Who gets reported on the news? Again, all to do with popularity. The news reports what the people want. The people, unfortunately don't want the LOI. The Irish public support the GAA championship so the news coverage reflects that. You want that to change? Then change yourself and become more popular and you'll get more publicity.

As I said, you seem very bitter and blame the GAA on everything. Take a closer look at yourself why sponsors don't want you, why the news and papers don't take an interest in you but as for grounds, the state just built Shamrock Rovers their stadium for them and they just spent €191 MILLION helping to build the Aviva!

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 11:34 AM

I know that Gaelic Football and Hurling are the most popular sports played by adults on the island I'm arguing that its popularity is built partly on decades of prejudice against soccer. It doesn't represent me, it doesn't represent anyone I hang around with, it would be happy if I just pulled up a barstool and watched 'soccer' in its place: England.

Ok, I'm bitter and I'm proud - now, I've admitted it and you can stop trying to insult me.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 11:45 AM

GAA is the second most played sport behind soccer. Soccer is the most played sport on the island yet you claim persecution. I don't need you to say you're bitter towards the GAA - your posts scream it.

Soccer is the most played sport on the island, more than gaelic football and hurling combined. Even if you added the ever growing rugby to the GAA numbers, soccer would still be top. Yet the homegrown sport is in dire straits. The media don't wanna know. Sponsors don't wanna know. All because it's popularity for the HOMEGROWN game is tiny. The reason for that is the homegrown bar stooler, nowt to do with the GAA, as much as that doesn't feed your persecution complex against them. The game itself, as in foreign soccer, gets far more coverage than the GAA, be it TV and written media, so its playing numbers reflect the coverage given to soccer as a whole, but the reason for the neglect of HOMEGROWN soccer is down to the ignorance of the Irish people, which translates to the ignorance and indifference to it by the Irish media.

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 11:57 AM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

GAA is the second most played sport behind soccer. Soccer is the most played sport on the island yet you claim persecution. I don't need you to say you're bitter towards the GAA - your posts scream it.

Soccer is the most played sport on the island, more than gaelic football and hurling combined. Even if you added the ever growing rugby to the GAA numbers, soccer would still be top. Yet the homegrown sport is in dire straits. The media don't wanna know. Sponsors don't wanna know. All because it's popularity for the HOMEGROWN game is tiny. The reason for that is the homegrown bar stooler, nowt to do with the GAA, as much as that doesn't feed your persecution complex against them. The game itself, as in foreign soccer, gets far more coverage than the GAA, be it TV and written media, so its playing numbers reflect the coverage given to soccer as a whole, but the reason for the neglect of HOMEGROWN soccer is down to the ignorance of the Irish people, which translates to the ignorance and indifference to it by the Irish media.

Look, you're completely missing the point.

In saying that the GAA is popular you're just describing the situation. I'm attempting to understand it and maybe try to think of ways the LoI could compete with it.

The GAA just didn't become popular by accident; it had to do with the antagonistic relationships between Ireland and England and between competing interests in the class structure in Ireland. History hasn't just stopped either; the GAA has a privileged position because it is not just a sport - it is a central part of the dominant story of what it means to be Irish and that's not a story that I can identify with.

I'm not alone in this.

The day when LoI teams eclipse SPL teams in Europe is coming but stealing some of the GAA's talent, money and loyalty would make that victory even more absolute!

You're a Shels fan: why not weigh in with some suggestions as to how that can happen?

Even though you seem terribly bitter against the LoI

I'm sure you can some up with something.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 12:09 PM

The LOI is not competing for the hearts and minds of the GAA public. You're competing against the EPL and all it entails. The problem isn't there are not enough soccer fans in Ireland. There's million of them. You just can't attract them to your product.

I know why the GAA was founded etc but in modern Ireland the GAA is popular because it's a fast moving sport that is also high scoring and people enjoy playing and watching it. It also plays to the tribal and clannish nature of the Irish with its county structure. It's feck all to do with the "antagonistic relationships between Ireland and England". Ireland 2011 and its people don't care about that, to them it's a sport - nothing else.

The day when LoI teams eclipse SPL teams in Europe is coming

Dream on, we can't get past the qualifer stage in Europe. Celtic/Rangers are having a few lean years but Scotland has made a European final twice in the last eight years, an unbeliveable achievement for such a small country.

but stealing some of the GAA's talent, money and loyalty would make that victory even more absolute!

The LOI can't even attract supporters from it's own sport - dream on

You're a Shels fan: why not weigh in with some suggestions as to how that can happen?

I already have on here and on a similar discussion on politics.ie. We need the FAI's and states help. It's about changing attitudes, simple as that. The sport is popular, you need to change mindsets. Now as you well know there's no way set in stone that you can do that other than trying to get into those minds with marketing. As I said also, the help of SKY would be most welcome.

Even though you seem terribly bitter against the LoI

I'm sure you can some up with something

I support the LOI, but I'm blunt about its failing and as a player/member of the GAA for the last 24 years of my 31 years on this planet, I would defend it to the last if someone wants to actually, and laughably, try and blame them for the LOI having feck all support in a country swarming with soccers fans!

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 12:33 PM

The LOI is not competing for the hearts and minds of the GAA public. You're competing against the EPL and all it entails. The problem isn't there are not enough soccer fans in Ireland. There's million of them. You just can't attract them to your product.

The LoI should be competing with the GAA. In terms of bums on seats GAA is by far the biggest sport in Ireland - in and around 60% of all attendees. Nothing comes close. Why shouldn't the LoI seek to get some of these? They're just sports fans, as you say, they'd love to go to soccer matches, wouldn't they? (Be careful, you don't want to end up agreeing with me here!)

I know why the GAA was founded etc but in modern Ireland the GAA is popular because it's a fast moving sport that is also high scoring and people enjoy playing and watching it. It also plays to the tribal and clannish nature of the Irish with its county structure. It's feck all to do with the "antagonistic relationships between Ireland and England". Ireland 2011 and its people don't care about that, to them it's a sport - nothing else.

Tribal and clannish? Who are you? Red Hugh O'Donnell? The GAA at first, was a part of a cultural revival which in turn was a part of a political movement against the British. It was deployed by the state after independence as a way of building a unifying identity in the new state, which was itself, highly divided in terms of class and religion. This survives; it's generally not played by prods and proles and the GAA is happy enough with that.

Dream on, we can't get past the qualifer stage in Europe. Celtic/Rangers are having a few lean years but Scotland has made a European final twice in the last eight years, an unbeliveable achievement for such a small country.

It's gonna happen. How will you feel when Shels beat Celtic?

I already have on here and on a similar discussion on politics.ie. We need the FAI's and states help. It's about changing attitudes, simple as that. The sport is popular, you need to change mindsets. Now as you well know there's no way set in stone that you can do that other than trying to get into those minds with marketing. As I said also, the help of SKY would be most welcome.

I agree - as I said above, large scale liaison and coordination with schools is essential. Get ready for the GAA storm troopers if that happens.

I support the LOI, but I'm blunt about its failing and as a player/member of the GAA for the last 24 years of my 31 years on this planet, I would defend it to the last if someone wants to actually, and laughably, try and blame them for the LOI having feck all support in a country swarming with soccers fans!

Its failings are obvious - it's like constantly slagging a cripple for being in a wheelchair. If only you were willing to go to the barricades for 'soccer'. Well I suppose it's a British game; everything in its place, safe, at a distance in Glasgow.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 12:55 PM

Tribal and clannish? Who are you? Red Hugh O'Donnell? The GAA at first, was a part of a cultural revival which in turn was a part of a political movement against the British. It was deployed by the state after independence as a way of building a unifying identity in the new state, which was itself, highly divided in terms of class and religion. This survives; it's generally not played by prods and proles and the GAA is happy enough with that

Those days are gone, stop living in 1922. To people today it's a sport - nothing else. The Irish are a tribal and clannish people. That's true. People are very clannish about their counties. I've been to the US and Scotland and people don't get why people are so thing about the tiny little county they're from on this tiny little island. Are you saying Irish people are not clannish? I disagree. They do be beating the off off each other in Queen's, NYC, every bleedin' Summer during the championship!

It's gonna happen. How will you feel when Shels beat Celtic?

I wouldn't know unless it happens. I would say the same maybe if Celtic won Shels, it's nothing something I would celebrate either way. It's not going to happen, LOI teams will struggle to get past the qualifiers forever until it gets the support it deserves from the people. For all the fact it's had a dip in Europe the last couple of seasons the SPL still had a representative in the quarter finals of the Europa League last season. That will NEVER even happen once for a LOI team if support for the league stays as it is.

I agree - as I said above, large scale liaison and coordination with schools is essential.

Soccer is already all over the schools. Soccer as a sport is booming, that's not the issue.

Its failings are obvious - it's like constantly slagging a cripple for being in a wheelchair. If only you were willing to go to the barricades for 'soccer'. Well I suppose it's a British game; everything in its place, safe, at a distance in Glasgow.

I'm a player/supporter, I'm not an activist for any sport. I have a son, woman, seriously ill father, and job to worry about first and I don't feel bad about that. I enjoy sports and play GAA and soccer. When I finish my 40 hours work and weekends back home looking after my da in the hospital feeding him and changing his nappy, and then trying to play for a GAA and soccer team it doesn't leave much time for my future wife and kid so I'll leave the campaigning to the custodians of the game, be it soccer or GAA, that's their job, not mine as a private citizen - and a seriously busy one at that.

Quite sad jibe at the end there re British and Glasgow. Sad, but unexpected from such a bitter angry person.

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 1:11 PM

Those days are gone, stop living in 1922. To people today it's a sport - nothing else. The Irish are a tribal and clannish people. That's true. People are very clannish about their counties. I've been to the US and Scotland and people don't get why people are so thing about the tiny little county they're from on this tiny little island. Are you saying Irish people are not clannish? I disagree. They do be beating the off off each other in Queen's, NYC, every bleedin' Summer during the championship!

So pretending as if the Flight of the Earls never actually happened while you bate the head off someone in a pub over a game that I couldn't care less about means you're Irish? I reckon I'd better hand my passport back.

I wouldn't know unless it happens. I would say the same maybe if Celtic won Shels, it's nothing something I would celebrate either way. It's not going to happen, LOI teams will struggle to get past the qualifiers forever until it gets the support it deserves from the people. For all the fact it's had a dip in Europe the last couple of seasons the SPL still had a representative in the quarter finals of the Europa League last season. That will NEVER even happen once for a LOI team if support for the league stays as it is.

I agree.

Soccer is already all over the schools. Soccer as a sport is booming, that's not the issue.

It is a central issue. I know plenty of schools where there is pressure not to push soccer.

I'm a player/supporter, I'm not an activist for any sport. I have a son, woman, seriously ill father, and job to worry about first and I don't feel bad about that. I enjoy sports and play GAA and soccer. When I finish my 40 hours work and weekends back home looking after my da in the hospital feeding him and changing his nappy, and then trying to play for a GAA and soccer team it doesn't leave much time for my future wife and kid so I'll leave the campaigning to the custodians of the game, be it soccer or GAA, that's their job, not mine as a private citizen - and a seriously busy one at that.

I'm pretty busy too, we seem to have plenty of time to have this conversation, anyway. I'm not suggesting that you go out in the streets and campaign, I am suggesting that the things you say in a public forum like this have influence, the arguments you have develop your ideas - if you can say something positive about the LoI to one person a day for a year that's Mervue's gate doubled. You say too many negative things about the LoI - that influences people too, especially since you're into the GAA. You could influence people there!

Quite sad jibe at the end there re British and Glasgow. Sad, but unexpected from such a bitter angry person.

I guess you mean expected, not unexpected. Look, you keep on with 'bitter' this and 'bitter' that...what do you expect? Compliments?

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 1:27 PM

So pretending as if the Flight of the Earls never actually happened while you bate the head off someone in a pub over a game that I couldn't care less about means you're Irish? I reckon I'd better hand my passport back.

You're making hee-haw sense now

I'm pretty busy too, we seem to have plenty of time to have this conversation, anyway

On my employers time, not mine

You should jump in my shoes for a week you'll know busy. Work during the week, flight to Dublin after work Friday and about eighteen hours in a hospital over the weekend with flight back Sunday evening to make work on Monday morning. Throw in trying to play for both a GAA team and soccer team during the week, I doubt you are as busy as myself. I don't actually have the internet at home. No point, I'd never have the time to log-on. So you go and do your bit for the league, if you don't you're a hypocrite. Those of us, like myself, who have more important things to do, will leave it to you.

BTW, I do say plenty of postives about the league, some people just get their backs up when people give an honest opinion and you end up having needless argument with people that pollute the board and make you look negative. I've written a couple of articles in the Shelbourne programme, one for the game against the Celtic XI, where I wrote about how going to Tolka was up there with going to Celtic Park for different reasons. I can't remember it all but the ending was a joke about Leo Burdock's beating anything out there in world football or something

. I'm not suggesting that you go out in the streets and campaign, I am suggesting that the things you say in a public forum like this have influence, the arguments you have develop your ideas - if you can say something positive about the LoI to one person a day for a year that's Mervue's gate doubled. You say too many negative things about the LoI - that influences people too, especially since you're into the GAA. You could influence people there!

I try and bring people to Shelbourne games with me, I don't get to many this season cause my flight doesn't land until 10:35pm on a Friday and the game is over but for me it's down to the supporter also and I'm sure everyone who does support a LOI club tries to bring folk along and tries to get their pals interested. We're only small pawns in the bigger picture. The FAI are the current custodians of the league, it's in their hands.

I guess you mean expected, not unexpected. Look, you keep on with 'bitter' this and 'bitter' that...what do you expect? Compliments?

I did indeed. I don't expect anything, as I said your posts scream bitterness when in a country swarming with soccer players and fans you blame another sport for our national soccer leagues failings. Laughable my friend, laughable.

**born2bwild** · 24/08/2011, 1:45 PM

You're making hee-haw sense now

Wha?

I did indeed. I don't expect anything, as I said your posts scream bitterness when in a country swarming with soccer players and fans you blame another sport for our national soccer leagues failings. Laughable my friend, laughable.

Keep laughing. The fact remains that if the LoI could take 25% of the GAA's monopoly on talent, funding, loyalty, fans, sponsorship and so on, the SPL would get spanked in European competition.

Could it happen?

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 2:27 PM

Soccer as a sport get a lot more than 25% of the money the GAA get. I don't know where you get this theory they get a lot more - they don't. The Aviva got €191 million from the state alone. You talk about a monopoly on talent? As I've already told you, in the lastest ERSI report, it showed gaelic football, hurling and rugby combined do not get as many players as soccer. COMBINED. So where is this monpoly on talent? Loyalty? Their support are loyal. But that's a monopoly? Fans? We have them. They support another league, that's the problem as I keep telling you. Sponsorship? That's the league fault and starts with the soccer fan in general. If they supported their home league sponsors would invest. They don't so they stay away.

If the soccer fan in Ireland supported their home league of course the LOI could be as popular and good as the SPL, Celtic & Rangers included. Of course, we're the same size as Scotland and we hopefully wouldn't have the majority of the support going to two clubs, which would be fantastic and a dream come true. But that's all it is - a dream. It's never going to happen. It's a great thought though, our clubs getting 20,000 folk at every game. We'd have a quality league

**peadar1987** · 24/08/2011, 2:39 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

It's a shame the FAI didn't strike a deal with SKY like the IFA did. Would that maybe change attitude slightly if someone like SKY was seen to be taking an interest?

I wonder would the hype and build-up Sky would bring make up for the loss of having the games free-to-air, and more accessible to everyone? I don't think it's helped the IFA too much, to be honest. On the other hand, it's hardly as if RTÉ are covering every game, or even a game every week. Perhaps if Sky were offered a few games a month, for free, at least to begin with, it would be a good start. I still think that, while investing your money directly into an LOI club might be a good way to make yourself a poor man, the potential is worthwhile for an organisation involved with advertising to run a big hype-up campaign, in return for some cut of the advertising revenue from the exposure such a campaign would bring.

Originally Posted by born2bwild

I agree with this: although I see no need for the word 'English': 'big' and 'shiny', sure, the bigger and shinier the better. Although, I certainly have no love for Sky that's where the money is.

But when the Irish are looking for things that are big and shiny, we tend to look towards one of two places, Britain, or the States. You'll find fewer people coveting a shiny German train system, than you will praying for an Irish winner of the X Factor.

**peadar1987** · 24/08/2011, 2:49 PM

With regard to the GAA, yes, there is a strong dislike for "soccer" permeating the entire organisation. To say otherwise would be to ignore things like the Thomas Davis-Shams debacle, and certain ploughed fields in Kerry. The vast majority of GAA members are decent sports fans, who probably enjoy a good game of football as much as anyone else, but the prejudice against "foreign sports" still remains for many, some of them in powerful positions.

However, this isn't 1931 any more. Irish people don't just blindly do what they're told to nearly the same degree, whether the person doing the telling is the parish priest, or the minor hurling coach. If a GAA member is interested in Man United, they are going to watch them without batting an eyelid. I see no reason why the LOI couldn't be the same. Of course, a bit of inter-club cooperation would be very nice. I'd love to see a situation where LOI clubs allow the grounds to be used for underage GAA games, GAA clubs announce forthcoming big leage games for the local LOI club, and encourage the members to go along, clubs can share fitness coaches, sessions, and training facilities, along with rugby. I think the general cooperation and goodwill would benefit everyone concerned. It's a pity that it will never happen.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 2:52 PM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

I wonder would the hype and build-up Sky would bring make up for the loss of having the games free-to-air, and more accessible to everyone? I don't think it's helped the IFA too much, to be honest. On the other hand, it's hardly as if RTÉ are covering every game, or even a game every week. Perhaps if Sky were offered a few games a month, for free, at least to begin with, it would be a good start. I still think that, while investing your money directly into an LOI club might be a good way to make yourself a poor man, the potential is worthwhile for an organisation involved with advertising to run a big hype-up campaign, in return for some cut of the advertising revenue from the exposure such a campaign would bring.

The IFA games are very irregular though, if SKY were to take it on I'd like to see them give it the time they give the SPL for example otherwise the status quo is just as good. True about investing your money in a LOI club, but look at that clown who bought Peterbrough. What return will he get and he's invested millions into a nothing club in England he didn't even support! What hope have we got?

**peadar1987** · 24/08/2011, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

The IFA games are very irregular though, if SKY were to take it on I'd like to see them give it the time they give the SPL for example otherwise the status quo is just as good. True about investing your money in a LOI club, but look at that clown who bought Peterbrough. What return will he get and he's invested millions into a nothing club in England he didn't even support! What hope have we got?

True that, if you're looking to make money (or at least, not lose money) from a football club, it's either invest megabucks in a profit machine like Man U, or Barcelona, or else go for a relatively strong, but unrecognised league, such as Austria or Belgium. If somebody was looking for a club just as a plaything to invest their millions in, I think they really could do worse than an LOI club. 10 million here could get you the best stadium in the league, a top-notch advertising campaign across the whole catchment area to build a sustainable fanbase, and the financial clout to attract a team who would win things and qualify for Europe. 10 million in England buys you a second string left back.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 24/08/2011, 3:56 PM

I agree and it's why I despaired when I heard the clowns Dublin accent. I suppose he's praying they make the EPL one day and he's quids in but they have an old ramshackle stadium and League One is their level and that's me being kind. If we could even get a TV deal like the SPL. £1.5 million a year TV money for our clubs would be a massive boost. There's a big Irish community in Britain who would hopefully watch the games boosting viewing figures, so it's worth a shot for the FAI trying to push a deal with SKY. A proper deal though with proper coverage, not the one the IFA did.