Comparison of Irish clubs in Europe versus Scottish clubs in Europe

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 22/08/2011, 9:27 AM

It took us 13 years to move to Tallaght and 16 years to win a league title. We had to work very hard for what we have now, nothing was easy for us, but we painstakingly stuck at it and we have the rewards for doing so. Other clubs should have gone down the same road. Instead some of them went out of business and more may follow. That's football.

You ran away from your debt and had a nice little ground built for you, what hard work did you did to recify the situation? Seems to me you had it on a plate for you. Unlike you, Shels have faced up to their problems without running away from them and then looking to seek credit for it. I wasn't quoting the wrong poster, I remember the shambles and joke that was Shamrock Rovers. You cheated your creditors and were homeless until SDCC bailed you out with tax-payers money. What did you do? You deserve no slap on the back.

**mypost** · 22/08/2011, 9:49 AM

We didn't run away from our debt. We went through a 3-month restructuring process, and at the end of it, we paid the creditors the amount as per the agreement reached. Since then, everyone and everything at SRFC has been paid on time and in full.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 22/08/2011, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by mypost

We didn't run away from our debt. We went through a 3-month restructuring process, and at the end of it, we paid the creditors the amount as per the agreement reached. Since then, everyone and everything at SRFC has been paid on time and in full.

Oh since then. That's nice, what about the millions before that you never paid? You got bailed out re your ground after being homeless and a running joke for a couple of decades and then try and portray you as a model for others to follow?! You can word it how you wish, but you were irresponsible and got bailed out. I would hope others don't follow your path.

**born2bwild** · 22/08/2011, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Check the title of the thread and see why I'm talking about Celtic.

I'm not sure is the honest answer. How do you change attitudes that have been there for decades now. It's so engrained it's not even funny. I would say we need state help or some form of marketing campaign from the FAI to encourage folk to support their local team. The LOI clubs can't do it on their own. You can talk about 'drive' and 'ambition' but you need money and outside help, like the kind you got to help you get out of the shambles you were in. On your own you were the joke of the LOI. Look what you have now with some outside assistance.

You're confusing me with a Shams fan! It takes a lot to insult me, but, well done: Celtic 1 Me 0.

Look, Celtic are one of the great British clubs - they were European Champions ffs - but what you don't seem to appreciate fully is how much the LOI is competing for money, talent, loyalty and so on with the GAA.

Did you see that Colm Cooper chap for Kerry the other day? Or Henry Shefflin for Kilkenny two weeks ago? World class athletes playing in a world class stadium. Celtic would not have the tradition, success, loyalty, money and talent that they have had if they had to compete with the monster that is the GAA. The LoI would have its own European pedigree and trophies too if players and support like I've mentioned above were devoted to soccer.

In making the comparison between Irish and Scottish teams you will understand nothing if you do not recognise that Irish teams succeed in spite of the odds.

Ironically, Scottish teams are, in the wider scheme of things, getting closer to the level of the LoI but for different reasons - TV money has inflated the Sky Sports leagues into an even more grotesque and bloated monster than the GAA.

The demise of Scottish football and the constant struggles of Irish football should concern you as you are both a Shels and a Celtic fan. You're not going to change either situation by deluding yourself about the health of the Scottish game and making petty digs at the Irish.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 22/08/2011, 1:36 PM

I agree re the GAA and rugby is nowhere as popular in Scotland as it is in Ireland also. It's not digs, it's what I feel and I say things as I see them. For all the knockers I admire that such a small country has done so well and how they support their own league despite being on the same land mass as England. I know what you mean about TV money but it's only a small amount the SPL gets and even then they get it because SKY feel it's worth investing in because people will watch it. We would have a deal like that if our people even had enough interest to watch it on telly, but we don't even have a barstool support. Like I keep say if we can change attitudes we can change the league, but there needs to be a marketing campaign, be it by the state or FAI to encourage support, like as how Leinster have become massive - it was all down to advertising and marketing imo.

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/08/2011, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Look at his record for them before one good HALF season. He was awful, he had a good six months.

Yeah but the point is that he got into the team more or less straight away and he wasn't even close to the first team at Derry.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 22/08/2011, 4:04 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Yeah but the point is that he got into the team more or less straight away and he wasn't even close to the first team at Derry.

Mate the star man in the LOI was playing for a team in the THIRD TIER of the Scottish football after being unable to get a game for Hamilton, then in the second tier of Scottish football. I don't really think there's a comparison there.

Sammon scored 17 goals in three and a half seasons in the SPL and made 65 appearances in three and a half seasons. What does that work out an average of? 18 games? He was rank rotten his first three seasons and played the same amount of games on average he played for Derry in a season if Wiki is to be believed.

But again, there's no comparison with the two examples. One is a player in the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier going to the LOI and is now one of the main men for the main team. Sammon played 16 times for Derry, about the same he averaged for Killie, who are hardly the creme de la creme of the SPL. P*ss poor comparison.

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/08/2011, 4:25 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Mate the star man in the LOI was playing for a team in the THIRD TIER of the Scottish football after being unable to get a game for Hamilton, then in the second tier of Scottish football. I don't really think there's a comparison there.

Sammon scored 17 goals in three and a half seasons in the SPL and made 65 appearances in three and a half seasons. What does that work out an average of? 18 games? He was rank rotten his first three seasons and played the same amount of games on average he played for Derry in a season if Wiki is to be believed.

But again, there's no comparison with the two examples. One is a player in the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier going to the LOI and is now one of the main men for the main team. Sammon played 16 times for Derry, about the same he averaged for Killie, who are hardly the creme de la creme of the SPL. P*ss poor comparison.

Well Sammon worked on his game and became a much better player. I don't know why you won't give Twigg the same credit. The best striker in the League of Ireland would have a good shot of getting into a few SPL teams. The standard isn't that much higher.

**TiocfaidhArmani** · 22/08/2011, 4:42 PM

It took Sammon three years to up his game and he came from a top Irish team to a lower end SPL team so again I don't see the comparison of someone coming from the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier.

Maybe some players would, I don't know really if the standard is all that much higher, but there is a lot more international level footballers in the SPL and players who stay in Scotland rather than go the championship etc in England because the money is not bad in the top end of the SPL. The likes of Jody Morris and Michael Duberry while not being world beaters playing for St Johnstone would never be attracted to the LOI.

**mypost** · 22/08/2011, 5:05 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

Oh since then. That's nice, what about the millions before that you never paid? I would hope others don't follow your path.

They have. In several cases the FAI have bailed them out with ground takeovers and "donations". I suppose that's not "outside assistance" to you though.

As posted before, we paid the creditors what we were ordered to pay. Sorry it wasn't as much as you'd like, but we did what we were told. As we have ever since.

**Charlie Darwin** · 22/08/2011, 7:30 PM

Originally Posted by TiocfaidhArmani

It took Sammon three years to up his game and he came from a top Irish team to a lower end SPL team so again I don't see the comparison of someone coming from the third tier of Scottish football after failing in the second tier.

The point is that he went straight into the Kilmarnock first team - the fact he didn't score many goals is irrelevant. By the time he hit his best form he was far too good for the SPL. Twigg has likewise improved as a player since signing for Rovers and is now at his peak. It's ludicrous to suggest he'd have no hope of playing for one of the lower teams in the SPL for whom a less decorated player from the same league has already succeeded and outgrown them.

**MariborKev** · 22/08/2011, 9:56 PM

To be fair, Sammon was a regular started for us at Derry.

**Straightstory** · 23/08/2011, 9:01 AM

Originally Posted by born2bwild

Did you see that Colm Cooper chap for Kerry the other day? Or Henry Shefflin for Kilkenny two weeks ago? World class athletes playing in a world class stadium.

'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

**nigel-harps1954** · 23/08/2011, 3:56 PM

Originally Posted by Straightstory

'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

I think the point is the media regards them as world class athletes rather than them actually being world class athletes. You don't see LOI players in Lucozade Sports ad's, or running around in Liverpool jerseys with their favourite player on the back for TV. The media milks the GAA and the GAA sits and lets it happen because both of them see the benifits. This doesn't happen with LOI.

**born2bwild** · 23/08/2011, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Straightstory

'World class athletes'? You must be joking. Big fish in a very, very small pond.

Yeah...Look, I can't stand GAA but don't give me that 'big fish small pond' rubbish.

Are you arguing that the top GAA players could not make top football players?

Kevin Moran?

Point is, if these lads were living in Britain they wouldn't be gobbled up by the GAA...their obvious talents would be given to football.

What does it take to be a world-class athlete? Whatever the recipe is overall, in-built genetic ability is a basic ingredient, and the likes of Cooper and Shefflin have it, how can you argue otherwise?

If we didn't have the GAA here they'd be playing real football. Are you trying to tell me that they'd be sh1te at it?

**Acornvilla** · 23/08/2011, 4:32 PM

In fairness the only way we can compare the GAA lads as athletes is when they play the Aussies, and they get destroyed, and the lads from OZ never send their best players, I know there pro as opposed to the amateur Irish but they are still more often than not outclassed

**born2bwild** · 23/08/2011, 4:49 PM

This argument is becoming ridiculously hypothetical. Great crack.

International rules is a circus - just like that Dublin Super Cup - players playing together purely as a PR exercise. It tells you very little.

Anyway ,the Aussies are always poaching the top GAA players with the understanding that they can be made in to top Pros - remove the GAA from the basic equation and you've got a country full of blokes who want to kick a ball, what are they going to play? Rugby? Maybe, but since football is the most played game at underage in this country, you can bet they'd be playing football.

Do you reckon they'd be any good?

More to the point, do you reckon having a much larger pool of talent to draw on would improve the LoI's performance in Europe relative to say, Scotland????

**Acornvilla** · 23/08/2011, 4:52 PM

In fairness do you even need to ask that question?

**Charlie Darwin** · 23/08/2011, 4:56 PM

Originally Posted by Acornvilla

In fairness the only way we can compare the GAA lads as athletes is when they play the Aussies, and they get destroyed, and the lads from OZ never send their best players, I know there pro as opposed to the amateur Irish but they are still more often than not outclassed

Outclassed in terms of speed, strength and stamina but those are all really functions of being a full-time pro. In terms of technical ability, the Irish players always outclass the Aussies.

**Acornvilla** · 23/08/2011, 4:57 PM

Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

Outclassed in terms of speed, strength and stamina but those are all really functions of being a full-time pro. In terms of technical ability, the Irish players always outclass the Aussies.

Like I said thou the Aussies don't send their best players.

Anyhow this is hardly worth discussing