Trapattoni - Questionable?

Originally Posted by Jicked

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

Jicked I meant in terms of results. The football, in terms of organisation and defence bar the poland game has improved immensely.

Originally Posted by Jicked

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?!

Of course we have faith in Trapp in relation to what he's done in the game up until now. I was only trying to say that'll me f*** all to me if he doesn't continue that with us. To be honest, if anybody else was making the decisions he's making there'd be a far bigger outrage. Nobody is looking for his head and everybody hopes he succeeds. We know the man has a system he thinks will benefit Ireland and that's fair enough but we are allowed to question some of the team selections, we could be proved wrong and I for one hope I am, I hope Whelan is a revelation in the rest of the campaign and Gibson blossoms into the player that Fergie and co thinks he's capable of.....it's a big price to pay though if they don't.

Originally Posted by irishfan86

I don't think Trap should be criticized for not giving young players a chance per se, but rather for giving the wrong young players a chance!

Trap has faith in McShane (age 22), Darron Gibson (age 21), Andy Keogh (age 22), McGeady (age 22).

I don't look at his team and say, "I wish he brought through more youth."

I look at it and say, "why is he calling up these players (regardless of what age they are), when there are better players available?!"

irishfan86 - you've pretty much summed up all of the points i've been too lazy to make and for this I doff my cap to you good sir....

Yep, good points IF86. I think McGeady may justify his place though.

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Yep, good points IF86. I think McGeady may justify his place though.

Perhaps including McGeady in there was the wrong thing to do, as I do like him.

I was just saying that those are 4 young players that Trap has faith in, so it's not as if he's playing an entire team of players near 30.

As I said before, I don't care about age, I just want the best players/team on the field, and that isn't happening right now.

Are the players being left out THAT much better than the ones that are in there? We've got a weak squad. He's only got so much to work with.

So far we've looked organised and been hard to beat. That's the basis any good team should be based off. The bells and whistles will come later...if needed at all.

I think it's obvious that Trap identifies certain attitudes in the player that he values.
Trap is putting a higher value on a players professional attitude and approach to the whole International set up. He has the right to select the players who he wants to work with.
No players has a right to a place by virtue of club form.

Trap keeps referring to these things since he took over, especially with Gibson, Whelan and Keogh and attitudes in general.

Originally Posted by Jicked

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?! He's the veteran of so many (succesfull) campaigns that he knows exactly what needs to be done to be a success. He's always worked this way, and it has always worked. Over 30 years. Its incredible that people would question him when he has proved time and time and time again that his methods work. I really don't believe that you think there was no improvement between a second string XI going down 3-2 to Poland, when you consider the depths we plummeted to against San Marino, Cyprus, Slovakia etc

Whelan has been good so far for us, and those belittling him as little more than a Stoke reserve are way off, he's done a fine job thus far. We're absolutely blessed to have him, I can't think of a realistically better alternative.

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.

2) He's always worked this way and it always worked?? I think if you ask any Italian about Trappatonis time in charge of them they'll dispute this.

3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.

4) Whelan hsa been good for us, but as with any player who is not playing regularly he is going to be struggling for match fitness and match sharpness. World cup qualifiers are not the time to be catching up on these.

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.

SuperLiga 04/05
Austrian Bundesliga 06/07

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.

and Steve Finnan and Steven Reid

Benfica have only won the league once in the last 20 years and that was in Trap's only season there.

Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

SuperLiga 04/05
Austrian Bundesliga 06/07

and Steve Finnan and Steven Reid

Superliga is on par with the Scottish league and Austrian League is like the Eircom league.

Steven Reid is out long term, so i was not counting him and McShane/Finnan are much of a muchness.

Originally Posted by eirebhoy

Benfica have only won the league once in the last 20 years and that was in Trap's only season there.

They came 2nd the two years before so it was hardly an amazing transformation. And he only lasted one year,

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Superliga is on par with the Scottish league and Austrian League is like the Eircom league.

How many Scottish teams have won the Champions League?

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

Steven Reid is out long term, so i was not counting him

Why didn't you say that so? Steven Reid is clearly in Trapattoni's preferred starting XI

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

McShane/Finnan are much of a muchness.

McShane is a centre half playing at full back. Steve Finnan was one of the best full backs in the Premiership.

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

They came 2nd the two years before so it was hardly an amazing transformation. And he only lasted one year,

From wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giovanni_Trapattoni#Coach

He resigned after the 2005 season, saying he wanted to be closer to his family (in the north of Italy)

Celtic have won it once and finished as runners-up once.

Steve Finnan was very clearly not one of the best full-backs in the Premiership. In his last three years at Liverpool he appeared in less than a third of their Premiership matches and in his last year made only eleven out of thirty eight possible appearances.

Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Celtic have won it once and finished as runners-up once.

touché

Originally Posted by Colbert Report

Steve Finnan was very clearly not one of the best full-backs in the Premiership. In his last three years at Liverpool he appeared in less than a third of their Premiership matches and in his last year made only eleven out of thirty eight possible appearances.

Premiership Team of the Year 2002: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PFA_Tea...#Premiership_3

DF Steve Finnan Fulham

Also, he was injured for quite a bit of his final season at Fulham.

2002? Stop living in the past man! It is almost 2009!

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

1) Whats he has done in the past is irrelevant because it has no bearing on our qualification hopes. He has won a lot, but he won it an awful long time ago.

2) He's always worked this way and it always worked?? I think if you ask any Italian about Trappatonis time in charge of them they'll dispute this.

3) Second string XI against Poland?? Except for Keane and McGeady both being injured this was Trappatonis first choice XI.

4) Whelan hsa been good for us, but as with any player who is not playing regularly he is going to be struggling for match fitness and match sharpness. World cup qualifiers are not the time to be catching up on these.

1) It is not irrelevant, at all. It's crazy to suggest that it is.
2) He doesn't have experience of winning a world cup, shock horror, but he does of how to go about a succesfull qualifying campaign.
3) Look at the side we had out in the second half when we were chasing the game.
4) But you admit Whelan has been good for us? So Trap should pick a lesser player, or one who goes against the system he wants us to play with, because he's played more games that season?

And I don't see how you can criticise his record, or belittle his achievements in Austria or Portugal.

Originally Posted by Jicked

1) It is not irrelevant, at all. It's crazy to suggest that it is.
2) He doesn't have experience of winning a world cup, shock horror, but he does of how to go about a succesfull qualifying campaign.
3) Look at the side we had out in the second half when we were chasing the game.
4) But you admit Whelan has been good for us? So Trap should pick a lesser player, or one who goes against the system he wants us to play with, because he's played more games that season?

And I don't see how you can criticise his record, or belittle his achievements in Austria or Portugal.

1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??

2) He was effectively hounded out of the Italian job because of his teams dour, defensive and ineffective methods and his odd selection policies.

3) Call me crazy, but weren't we 2-0 down before any substitutions were made???

4) I never said that he should pick a lesser player, Carsley is a one example of a much better player, who is playing regularly, and would easily slot into the system.

If whelan and gibson were to get injured, what would be his plan B?? He doesn't go to games, so he can hardly say Player A is in good form with his club, or i liked the look of Player B in the games i saw him p;ay.

Originally Posted by weldoninhio

1) How is anything that has happened in the past, with club teams, relevant to Irelands qualifying campaign this year??

2) He was effectively hounded out of the Italian job because of his teams dour, defensive and ineffective methods and his odd selection policies.

3) Call me crazy, but weren't we 2-0 down before any substitutions were made???

4) I never said that he should pick a lesser player, Carsley is a one example of a much better player, who is playing regularly, and would easily slot into the system.

If whelan and gibson were to get injured, what would be his plan B?? He doesn't go to games, so he can hardly say Player A is in good form with his club, or i liked the look of Player B in the games i saw him p;ay.

Your last point is ridiculous. Trap watches all pertinent games on DVD in Milan. Tell me, if you're saying Lee Carsley is playing well enough to be included despite his age, I presume you've been travelling to Birmingham week after week to see this?
You bemoan Trap for only watching players on tape, yet then complain about his team selection based on your superior knowledge from watching players on tape (and I'd love to hear how many games you've seen Carsley play this year). Plus Trap works hard with the players in training, has tried out many different players and combinations in friendlys and even goes to the hassle or organising a B international to take further look at them.

Can you really not see how his past is relevant? He's been through all of this before, he's been through every scenario possible. If we're chasing a game, closing one out, playing with 10 men, playing against 10 men, he has done it all before at the highest level and so will know exactly how we should adapt and play. That and his knowledge of working with different players means we should trust his judgement too.

I will call you crazy if you've the knives out for Trap on the back of a friendly defeat, with a weakened side and despite the fact we created more than enough chances to win the game.

Originally Posted by Jicked

Your last point is ridiculous. Trap watches all pertinent games on DVD in Milan. Tell me, if you're saying Lee Carsley is playing well enough to be included despite his age, I presume you've been travelling to Birmingham week after week to see this?
You bemoan Trap for only watching players on tape, yet then complain about his team selection based on your superior knowledge from watching players on tape (and I'd love to hear how many games you've seen Carsley play this year). Plus Trap works hard with the players in training, has tried out many different players and combinations in friendlys and even goes to the hassle or organising a B international to take further look at them.

Can you really not see how his past is relevant? He's been through all of this before, he's been through every scenario possible. If we're chasing a game, closing one out, playing with 10 men, playing against 10 men, he has done it all before at the highest level and so will know exactly how we should adapt and play. That and his knowledge of working with different players means we should trust his judgement too.

I will call you crazy if you've the knives out for Trap on the back of a friendly defeat, with a weakened side and despite the fact we created more than enough chances to win the game.

Carsley is playing ninety minutes a match for the top team in the Championship. Good enough for me, as Glen Whelan and Darron Gibson haven't played a full league match for their clubs since opening day of the season.

Sorry mate, that was not a weakened side. It was our best team available bar McGeady and Keane. Steven Reid and Steve Finnan probably won't play another match for us until September 2009. Keogh was in for McGeady and Folan in for Keane. McShane will likely be our starting right-back in place of Finnan for the next few qualifiers. Hardly a weakened team when you consider that our first choice eleven are almost never all fit at the same time. When was the last time Trap's first choice eleven have actually all started the same match? By that I mean the following team:

Given
Finnan-Dunne-O'Shea-Kilbane
McGeady-S.Reid-Whelan-Duff
Keane-Doyle

I doubt this team will take the field to start any match, competitive or not, at any time in the future. By this I mean you'll always have two or three injuries to deal with. Say Whelan or Gibson were to get injured? Who would go start in their place? Carsley fits Trap's system perfectly as an uncreative, tough-tackling physical presence in the middle of the park. Why discriminate against him on the basis of his age? He plays alot more first team football than Gibson, Welan, Steven Reid, Andy Reid, AND Keith Fahey combined.