Trapattoni - Questionable?

[paul_oshea]

I like this post. It makes far more sense looking at it this way than having a glance at a very misleading group table. Having said that psychology is a big thing in football and it might serve us well running into an early lead. It puts massive pressure on Bulgaria not to slip up again and gets us into a winning habbit. True though, the only difference really between ourselves and Bulgaria so far is the 3 points we picked up in an empty stadium in Germany compared to their 1 point in the far more difficult Tblisi, we'll take what we can get though.

Thats what i said not what neil said.

[DeLorean]

Thats what i said not what neil said.

I may have been guilty of not reading every post in the thread!!! sensible point though regardless of who said it first.

[DeLorean]

Is that a monks one or an acquired behavior pattern regularly followed until it has become almost involuntary?

Not sure what u mean?

[Irish_Praha]

I agree that our position in the table only looks so healthy because we have only played the lower seeded teams until now. However, it's good to have the points on the board and get off to a good start. This puts all the pressure on Bulgaria to pick up a some wins in their next few games.

Also, if I was to choose the 5 easiest games on paper from the possible 10 games I would choose the first 4 games as they are plus Montenegro at home instead of Bulgaria. At the start of the campaign I thought this easier start was perfect because it would give Trap the time to get to know the players and let the team take its shape before the serious business of playing Bulgaria, Italy and Cyprus away. Stephen Reid getting injured has put a spanner in the works and some of Traps decisions have been strange but hopefully they can keep picking up points and start improving their performances because they will need it for these three key games.

[DeLorean]

Exactly. It's ideal having the easy matches first once you get the points on the board. A win against Georgia at home is vital. Anthing less than 10 points from the 12 available would be borderline crap. The next 5 matches are going to be hugely difficult with Bulgaria/Italy providing the opposition in 4 out of the 5 and Cyprus away is arguably more difficult than Bulgaria at home.

[Qwerty]

I'm just wondering am I the only one who thinks Trapattoni isn't what he's cracked up to be? His decisions so far have been very strange and mind boggling at times. His football is negative and team/squad selections more than questionable. Andy Reid/Joey O'Brien aside, the fact that Darron Gibson is starting is an absolute joke. Glenn Whelan is not international standard. Andy Keogh is poor and again, not good enough to be anywhere near the team. Far better players are being left out of not only the team, but the squad.

Yes we have 7 from 9 points but all against C/D class international sides. I'd love to be enthusiastic about the guy but I've been around the game long enough to see through the cracks. He's no Jack Charlton I'm afraid. I think our current group position is false and going on current team selections and performances, I fully expect us to be exposed next season by Bulgaria and Italy. I cannot see this side getting results there, or in Cyprus for that matter.

So far I don't rate the guy and I fear that the stuff that the Redbull Salzburg fans were saying about him are beginning to ring through. Anyone else worried about some of the stuff that's going on?

I think the only really questionable decision has been that to exclude Lee Carsley given the other ( lack of ) options available.

Besides that our table position is accuarate, we've won 2 and drawn 1. Bulgaria have drawn 3. They didn't beat Georgia we did ( thank you FAI ). They couldn't do any better against Montenegro that we did. They clearly settled for a point at home to Italy before the first kick. Bulgaria are in crisis mode and hopefully they'll keep their coach and contnue that crisis a bit longer.

We usually play better against better teams so I'm not afraid of Italy or Bulgaria. We have a real shot this time around.



Our away game to Cyprus could be out hardest...

[paul_oshea]

Gibson came on for the last 15 minutes including injury time today, he was decent in fairness whenever he got the ball. Great to see he looks up and tries to hit a pass on the ground no matter what the distance.

[NeilMcD]

Thats what i said not what neil said.

I make good points too, listen to me

[DeLorean]

I make good points too, listen to me

Now Neil, Mr O'Shea did make the point first and it was outrageous behaviour on my part to suggest otherwise!!!

[irishultra]

I think the only really questionable decision has been that to exclude Lee Carsley given the other ( lack of ) options available.

Besides that our table position is accuarate, we've won 2 and drawn 1. Bulgaria have drawn 3. They didn't beat Georgia we did ( thank you FAI ). They couldn't do any better against Montenegro that we did. They clearly settled for a point at home to Italy before the first kick. Bulgaria are in crisis mode and hopefully they'll keep their coach and contnue that crisis a bit longer.

We usually play better against better teams so I'm not afraid of Italy or Bulgaria. We have a real shot this time around.



Our away game to Cyprus could be out hardest...

do we?

[mypost]

Last year, Andy Maradona was playing (poorly) for Ireland, under a poor manager. But, at least said manager went to watch his players' matches. It led to him getting sacked 2 years early, and finishing 10 points behind the qualifiers. This year, we're 3 points behind the group leaders with a game in hand.

Even Brazilians question the selections of the Brazil coach. Trappattoni has won everything in football, Andy Maradona has won f'all, whilst playing for the glamourous Charlton Athletic, the world beaters of Nottingham Forest, and is currently struggling to get into a mediocre Sunderland side. Go figure.

[Qwerty]

do we?

I think we do, not many wins mind you but if Bulgaria lose points to bottom seeds then draws will probably suffice. It is early days, we have a 2 pt advantage over Bulgaria right now IMO, it's not much but they are not a happy outfit.

[paul_oshea]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

[DeLorean]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

Stating the obvious but it would completely depend on who we get.

[Qwerty]

qwerty so lets say monty finish ahead of them and we finish second we still have a play-off to play. Can we win one? Well at least we got there I spose, but I find it hard to see us winning over two legs. At home we were always very solid and gave very little away but even that has changed over the last 2 years.

Our record is poor in the play-offs results-wise but apart from Holland all the rest were pretty close. It all depends on who we get and how the team develops between now and then, if there is a then. Trapp appears to have stopped the slide but now we have to improve and build on what we have done.

[Jicked]

Yes exactly Neil, and thats only because of circumstance.

In the same way people are jumping on Trap after the poland result, people jumped on saying how great a return 7 from 9 etc etc was. They were relatively easy games in teh group and I explained them above. If we came away with 7 from 9 from bulgaria twice and italy once then we could start jumping up and down celebrating. However this isn't going to happen. We have done absoloutely nothing yet(given the opposition i mean), and very little more than we did with Staunton, bar a terrible result against cyprus away.

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

[DeLorean]

Remember the argument earlier in the thread that some people must not know anything about football?
If you actually think that there hasn't been a big improvement then you've been watching a different team. We are way, way, way better than we were at any stage under Staunton, and now actually resemble a football side. At times quite a good one. At all times a hard to beat one.
Sometimes I think that the barstool army get used to seeing Gerrard score last minute screamers every week and think that if Whelan isn't pinging them in or making a 30 yard break then he must be rubbish.

Because a lad might have a different opinion to your all knowing self doesn't necessarily mean they don't watch any football and don't have a clue. Maybe some of us are being a bit harsh on Trapp but basically the jury's out for me. What he's done in the game up to now is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, that meant a lot when we made the appointment first but it rests there. It's all about gettin it right for Ireland now. If Staunton was judged on the Czech Rep and Slovakia home matches in the last campaign he would have looked to be doing a decent job, of course this would have been completely deluded but if you take Trapps first 2 qualifiers I'd say fair enough we're going in the right direction but if I was to just take the last 2, Cyprus in particular and Poland then I would find it difficult to see any improvement at all.

[irishfan86]

I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.

Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?

Do I have to like everything he's done?

I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.

There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:

-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).

There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.

Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.

[Jicked]

Because a lad might have a different opinion to your all knowing self doesn't necessarily mean they don't watch any football and don't have a clue. Maybe some of us are being a bit harsh on Trapp but basically the jury's out for me. What he's done in the game up to now is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned, that meant a lot when we made the appointment first but it rests there. It's all about gettin it right for Ireland now. If Staunton was judged on the Czech Rep and Slovakia home matches in the last campaign he would have looked to be doing a decent job, of course this would have been completely deluded but if you take Trapps first 2 qualifiers I'd say fair enough we're going in the right direction but if I was to just take the last 2, Cyprus in particular and Poland then I would find it difficult to see any improvement at all.

What a crazy take on things that is though. Why is it irrelevant?! If we're to make it to the WC we'll need every drop of experience that a wily campaigner like him has accrued. He's the veteran of so many (succesfull) campaigns that he knows exactly what needs to be done to be a success. He's always worked this way, and it has always worked. Over 30 years. Its incredible that people would question him when he has proved time and time and time again that his methods work. I really don't believe that you think there was no improvement between a second string XI going down 3-2 to Poland, when you consider the depths we plummeted to against San Marino, Cyprus, Slovakia etc

I don't mind his system (at least we have a system now!), I'm just not sure he's using the right players in that system.

Jicked, is it not fair to agree and disagree with certain aspects of Trap's reign?

Do I have to like everything he's done?

I prefer to talk about individual decisions and evaluate those, as opposed to saying he's a messiah or the worst manager ever.

There are more positives than negatives at this point, but some of those negatives are very worrying indeed, such as:

-persisting with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership
-using Keogh as a winger
-excluding Andy Reid from the squad altogether (not convinced he should be automatic first choice, but there's no question he should be in the squad).

There are a few other problems I have, but they are minor and non-controversial.

Just because Trap is doing some things right, doesn't mean he's doing all things right.

I too am a fan of his system, it's one that will get the best out of resources, making best use of our talented wide players and the guile of our two front men whilst giving our oft-troubled defence a little extra protection. Its common sense not to be pretending that we have Maradona in the middle of the park who can pull the strings for us, we've tried Reid in that role before and its failed consistently, why stick with it?

First off, using the word 'persists' is really tabloid/sensationalistic/Dunphy-esque talk. He played him against Cyprus (who others have thought we should have beat easily and so hardly a great test supposedly), and then picked him again in a friendly. Considering Trap has already used a few other players in the CM position Gibson now holds, how can you honestly say he is constantly persisting with it?!
I fail to see how its 'very worrying' that he persists with Gibson and Whelan as a partnership. Whelan has been good so far for us, and those belittling him as little more than a Stoke reserve are way off, he's done a fine job thus far. Gibson hasn't been as effective. But he's young, obviously has the qualities that Trap likes and thinks he can mould in to a player of some worth for us. Considering what I said above about his experience being key, its great that he's now ear marked Gibson to play a role in this team. It wont happen overnight, or over two games, but by the end of the campaign he could be quite a good player for us. What do we get from chopping and changing to a new in vogue player each week, when the alternatives are hardly offering a different class (and Trap is right about Carsley, there's absolutely no chance of him being around in 2010)


Then there's Andy Keogh as a winger. As said before, this guy is a veteran campaigner of 30 years. If he decides to look at a player for 60 minutes, in a friendly, and that player is realistically the third choice right sided midfielder, is it really worth getting our knickers in a twist? Come on, giving him an hour in a friendly to see if he can cover in the result of two injuries, before hauling him off, how is that anything other than a minor, uncontroversial and instantly forgettable selection.


It really worries me how the knives are out for Trap. We're absolutely blessed to have him, I can't think of a realistically better alternative. People moaning about the team, and second guessing Trap over trivial things such as whether or not Andy Keogh should be third choice winger or not just adds to a negative air around the whole squad, and the games/weeks they are over for.

[Colbert Report]

Great post by the lad above me there. I do have to disagree with you about one thing though. Carsley is putting in ninety minutes for Birmingham every match and is their main player, from what I've read anyway. South Africa 2010 is really only what, nineteen months away? He won't lose his legs that fast. Certainly I can see your point about him not being around by 2010, but if we continue playing the young Gibson in the middle we won't get to the world cup finals anyway. I think Gibson is a good player, don't get me wrong, but he's not ready for this stage quite yet. He needs to go out on loan to a Championship team and get ninety minutes a week for an extended period of time before we start penciling him in for the starting central midfield role.

It worries me too that the knives are out for Trap already. In fairness to him, Steven Reid is done for the season and who else can he pick for the central midfield role? Andy Reid is a great great player but clearly not the defensive, tough tackling midfielder needed in Trap's system. Carsley, however, fits this role perfectly. If he were ten years younger he'd be in the starting line up, no question about it.