Trapattoni - Questionable?

[Splurge]

Fux sake, i hate all this debate about Trappatoni, here we have a legend of a manager but ppl cant seem to accept the fact that he prefers a Man Utd reserve to a sunderland reserve and a young water carrier (Whelean) to an older one, Carsley.

Judge him after the qualifiers, until then enjoy the show.

[galwayhoop]

I'm not calling for his head.

Some of his decisions have been good, some have been bad.

We're hardly going to praise Trap for common sense decisions like Duff, Keane, Dunne, and Given in the starting lineup.

The discussion and debate will always be related to those players who are not necessarily guaranteed a spot for various reasons.

Here is a brief look at some of Trap's questionable inclusions:

O'Shea has been much maligned over the years, and it is only really this campaign that I have noticed the criticism almost disappear completely. He doesn't always play for United, but placing O'Shea in the centre of defence has been one of Trap's best moves. Hardly mentioned in the media or this forum.

Kilbane has always had his doubters, and I have been one of them at times. I love the man's character, but if I'm being 100% honest, he still scares me ****less at times. Still, with no clearly better option, nobody has been critical of him playing at left full.

McShane is a centre-half being played at fullback for both club and country. At least he's getting games at Hull, but you really never know what you're going to get from him. There's no questioning his guts or commitment, but his questionable decision making, lack of pace, and the fact that he's playing out of position all make him hard to 100% justify when we have the likes of Joey O'Brien and Foley to choose from.

Whelan- Above average performances against crap opposition and he's now a guaranteed starter. Even if he is as good as Trap thinks, it can't be good for his match sharpness and fitness to be riding the pine with Stoke. Questions are rightly raised- not as good a tackler as Carsley, not as creative as Andy Reid...is he the better overall player, or is it just a matter of being highly effective in Trap's system?

Gibson- There's definitely potential here, but he's simply not ready for this level yet. Perhaps if he was getting regular football he could rapidly be capable of this, but going from reserve team football against Hull reserves to playing Italy is simply too big a gap so I hope he gets a loan move or breaks through at United (GOOD LUCK WITH THAT!).

Keogh- never a winger in a million years. At this stage he should be 4th or lower in the striker pecking order.

Folan- Even though he played well, his selection for the friendly was questionable given that he isn't getting much playing time with Hull. This was a gamble worth taking, and he really looks like he could be a solid option for us in this campaign. He looks a real team player, and a very intelligent footballer overall. It's only one game, but I was really impressed.

Anyway, these are some of Trap's questionable decisions.

Kilbane and O'Shea are not being questioned now, because we don't have much in the line of alternatives, and in fairness to them, they have done well apart from this Poland game.

The centre of midfield is barely functional at best, and there isn't an obvious solution. I love Andy Reid, but I don't think he can play alongside Whelan without us getting ripped apart.

In fact, with the midfielders we have, I'm not sure Reid could play as a central midfielder in a 4-4-2.

I'm hoping Trap eventually decides to use Reid on the wings instead or on a rotation basis with McGeady, and I'm hoping that Andrews is given the start alongside Whelan when our campaign resumes in the new year.

My formation for our next game:

--------------Given------------

Finnan-----Dunne---O'Shea---Kilbane (when will Finnan be back anyway?)

McGeady---Whelan---Andrews---Duff

-------Keane--Doyle---------

Would be fine with Andy Reid coming in for McGeady, or Folan coming in for Doyle.

That lineup looks pretty strong, with my only serious worry being Kilbane at left full.

have to say i agree with most, if not all of this post.

a couple more things i might add would be...

aiden mcGeady, he is playing him regularly and at last he looks like he may mature into a decent player - i for one have always had doubts about this happening.

also on his questionable decisions, namely mcshane and gibson, both of them are definitely second choice to finnan and s.reid but they are injured so imo he is looking to keep these lads playing a few games so if/when they are needed the transition is seemless.

on andy reid, well it is clear that trap doesn't see him as a centre midfielder in a 4-4-2 where he clearly only wants his midfielders to concentrate on protection duties.
and in his opinion if we are playing with 4 attacking players then the wide men need to be mobile types who run at teams - again not andy reid. therefore with keane and doyle doing well i can understand why he isn't starting as he does not fit into the managers game plan.

tbh if s.ireland ever grew up and decided to play for his country he wouldn't play for this manager in cm either, perhaps behind the front man or out wide but definately not cm.

another thing i like about trap (for right or wrong) is that he is using the friendlies to familarise players with each other and not to give the granny and her second-cousin-twice-removed a run which would make a fairly pointless get together totally meaningless. at least when games roll around we all have a fairly good idea who will start and where, not like the staunton-round--a-bout where any given player could play any given position on any given side depending on the pitch.

[paul_oshea]

You raised some valid points so don't worry about the name callers. We have yet to play our two group rivals and only then will we know how good or bad we are. If we play Italy and Bulgaria with the starting eleven that played against Cyprus (with two of our midfielders playing reserve team football)then we will struggle to get one point from the two games. The Italians especially will exploit Kilbane and McShane ruthlessly. And going a goal down to the Italians will mean game over. Hopefully Finnan will return from injury and that will make a big difference. If Whelan and Gibson improve enough in the coming months then draws at least are possible. But if both players are still playing reserve football then we are heading for null points from the two crucial games.

agreed.

[galwayhoop]

I will be a fan long term and this is one of my concerns which i feel i should express. And i also think a manager like Trappatoni, or any manager worht his salt, should want to leave a healthy legacy as well as achieving the more immediate goal of qualification.

Do we really want to qualify for this WC only to have to go through the whole blooding/developiong process all over again straight away after? One step forward, two steps back.

our last 4 managers;
charlton - most successiful but left nothing behind him, inherited very good squad and added to it.
mccarthy - was given time to develop a squad and left a bit behind to work with - although he was still hoping to stay on so wasn't creating a legacy for someone else.
kerr- didn't qualify, blooded some but had neither a good team to start with nor a good one after he left.
staunton - told us all he was looking down the line and got the boot half way through his term.

the simple fact is whoever is in charge has a mandate to win matches and not leave a better team behind than when he started, ideally you will want both but if you only have a short contract and an instruction to get us qualified then you can't be expected to. a manager will always be judged by his results. did eoin hand get any credit for the crop of players charlton got - i don't think so.

[third policeman]

another thing i like about trap (for right or wrong) is that he is using the friendlies to familarise players with each other and not to give the granny and her second-cousin-twice-removed a run which would make a fairly pointless get together totally meaningless. .

The problem with our centre midfield is not lack of familiarity its a lack of quality and match fitness. Likewise the problem with the attacking four formation is the formation itself. Keane and Doyle are not best served by crosses from the flanks, especially when the balls are played in and our centre midfield players are 40 yards behind the play. We have two mobile, intellgent but not physically imposing strikers who are crying out for the kind of service that could be provided by players like Andy Reid, Ireland, Garvan or even McGeady playing in a less orthodox wide position.

The frustrating thing about the Trapp system (in addition to the fact that it is not necessaily working on the evidence of Cyprus and Poland) is that it does not play to the strengths of our best players nor does it enable us to actually play all our best players.

Also I dont buy into this "its too late to integrate the likes of Garvan, McCann. O'Toole etc." We are not talking about callow teenagers like McCarthy. These guys are playing well week in week out in a competitive league. hey are more ready for international football than reserve team makeweights like Whelan, Gibson, Miller and even Andrews. When exactly do you propose giving them a chance? Its not as if the current centre midfield options are turning in world beating performances.

[OwlsFan]

I'll reserve my judgement until the campaign is over. Really missing Stephen Reid though.

[SkStu]

our last 4 managers;
charlton - most successiful but left nothing behind him, inherited very good squad and added to it.
mccarthy - was given time to develop a squad and left a bit behind to work with - although he was still hoping to stay on so wasn't creating a legacy for someone else.
kerr- didn't qualify, blooded some but had neither a good team to start with nor a good one after he left.
staunton - told us all he was looking down the line and got the boot half way through his term.

the simple fact is whoever is in charge has a mandate to win matches and not leave a better team behind than when he started, ideally you will want both but if you only have a short contract and an instruction to get us qualified then you can't be expected to. a manager will always be judged by his results. did eoin hand get any credit for the crop of players charlton got - i don't think so.

i see where youre coming from but i disagree to an extent.

Charlton - was in charge for 10 years, he is an exception. He continually evolved the team and squad members so i think his exit in 96 is exempt from any particular scrutiny in that regard.

McCarthy - blooded a crop of youngsters and blended them with some of the experienced left overs from the Charlton era. He was sacked before he got a chance to blood in the next group of youngsters, as you stated was his probably intention.

Kerr - agreed

Staunton - agreed

Trappatoni - win or bust scenario. Win (through qualification) and he may choose to take us to the next level. Bust and we are royally fcked for the foreseeable future.

As a fan, as opposed to a poster who is trying to see things as the manager does or from the perspective of the FAI who want to qualify and generate money, this is what worries me. There is no long term thinking and, while i agree with you that this doesnt bother Trappatoni, its not a particularly good plan. It should be part of any mandate from the FAI to a manager to develop the team and prepare the younger players for the years ahead. So i guess im actually laying the blame at the door of the FAI.

However, simply put, i dont think Trappatoni rates our players at all and i think he has based that on the opinions of Givens and Brady without having gone to the "bother" of checking it out for himself. Not going to see our players in action at club level is lazy and inexcusable and he is setting himself up for a pretty hard fall if things go t1ts up. But then again he can just walk away, back to his Italian villa and its no harm to him. But what about us?

The more i think about it the more concerned i am with the set up we have at the moment. I think we need our manager to be more involved and not rely on Brady and Givens and their agendas.

Do we know is Tardelli scouting?

Anyway, i accept your point and im just thinking out loud so i know you will probably disagree with what ive posted.

[galwayhoop]

The problem with our centre midfield is not lack of familiarity its a lack of quality and match fitness. Likewise the problem with the attacking four formation is the formation itself. Keane and Doyle are not best served by crosses from the flanks, especially when the balls are played in and our centre midfield players are 40 yards behind the play. We have two mobile, intellgent but not physically imposing strikers who are crying out for the kind of service that could be provided by players like Andy Reid, Ireland, Garvan or even McGeady playing in a less orthodox wide position.

i see this differently from you, i don't think the game plan is to have a barrage of crosses into the box but more an interchanging attacking 4. notice how often duff got into the box as the furthest man forward the last night, it is more feed the wide players and then the other 3 join in the attack, the two middle players sit and cover and the extra width comes from the full backs.

all i'm saying is i can understand the formation he wants to use and time will tell if it is successiful or not - i'm not saying i would employ it myself but he isn't looking for a midfield playmaker or one who constantly breaks forward (a lá frank lampard for e.g.).

in his system players like a. reid and s. ireland would not be considered for the central midfield positions.

Also I dont buy into this "its too late to integrate the likes of Garvan, McCann. O'Toole etc." We are not talking about callow teenagers like McCarthy. These guys are playing well week in week out in a competitive league. hey are more ready for international football than reserve team makeweights like Whelan, Gibson, Miller and even Andrews. When exactly do you propose giving them a chance? Its not as if the current centre midfield options are turning in world beating performances.

just as well i wasn't trying to sell that argument so!!

personally i know little of those players bar snippets off highlight programmes and the odd match on TV so i can't say whether they will make the grade or not. incidentially i'm not saying whelan or gibson will either. i pretty much that miller won't anyway.

personally i think that players only establish themselves at international level through experience so would have liked one or two fresh faces involved in the middle for the game this week and was a little disappointed there was not more.

all I'm attempting to say is that for once it is good to have a semblance of continuity in the team from qualifier to friendly in order to try to establish an understanding between the players that will inevitably play*, whether they are the right players is certainly open to question. however there have been so many arguments over the years over who should and should not be involved that it is fruitless bemoaning who isn't there.

*two or 3 changes per game is fine but any more and you loose the flow imo

so i know you will probably disagree with what ive posted.

no, this is a forum for us all to express our opinions

[L37Ultra]

People who are Questioning Trappattoni havn't a clue about football to be honest.

[eagleforlife]

I get the impression that Trapattoni doesn't watch games in the UK and has basically picked his selections from what he's seen himself in Senior and B internationals. I for one have pegged back my expectations anyway after the goings on of the last few months

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.

[FarBeag]

I agree with everything that Third- Policeman and SkStu say in their posts. Until Trap gets up of his lazy arse and watches players like Garvan, O' Toole, McGann, A Reid etc play for their clubs, make his assessment on their ability then I have no faith in his ability as a manager. I dont care about his past, i care about how he goes about getting us to the world cup. This is not a difficult group and is certainly easier that the one we ended up with for that last EC .

He gets paid enough to do this job. All he appears to to is just turn up in Dublin a few days before a match and go with the players that are there. He can play the formation he thinks will take us to the WC but there are better players out there than some of the players he his using to achieve that goal.

[FarBeag]

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.

Exactly. If we had to play England even with the team they put out against Germany we would be hammered.

[Irish_Praha]

Exactly. If we had to play England even with the team they put out against Germany we would be hammered.

What has playing England got to do with anything?

[FarBeag]

What has playing England got to do with anything?

Sorry its off topic. Some people were suggesting(in another thread) that we may play them as one of our first games when the new lansdowne opens.

[Irish_Praha]

Sorry its off topic. Some people were suggesting(in another thread) that we may play them as one of our first games when the new lansdowne opens.

OK no problem. My point would be that if we don't improve quickly we will struggle to compete against any half-decent team. I am still happy that we have Trap as manager but I would also voice some concern over some of his methods, as outlines above. Here's hoping that it all falls into places on time and that we make it to SA.

I also think it would make sense for the FAI to start sounding out a replacement for Trap. They already know that he will at most be Ireland manager until Summer 2010. It would be good if they could announce his replacement before he is even gone.

[Jicked]

I also think it would make sense for the FAI to start sounding out a replacement for Trap. They already know that he will at most be Ireland manager until Summer 2010. It would be good if they could announce his replacement before he is even gone.

What on earth makes you think that? I cant think of why that would help, and almost every single example shows naming a successor whilst the incumbent is in office then it leads to very bad results.

As for those questioning Trap, as someone mentioned earlier I don't know how these people know anything about football. I find it hard to fathom that people are calling one of the greatest managers in the history of football a disgrace because he picks McShane over Foley as our second choice right back, or that he gives Andy Keogh 60 minutes on the wing to have a look at him. Some people really just seem clueless.

[Manc Irish Wolf]

A great debate and some very good points from all sides. Can't quite understand the objection of questioning Trap from some as surely the only way that we will fully maximise our potential and become world-beaters (which has to be the aim of any international team) is highlighting our weakneses and addressing them. As much of a legend that Trap is and however much he has our support, he is not flawless and deserves to be questioned as much as the next man if he is potentially jeapordising our qualification chances and long term development.

Personal issues are:

1) Strategy to fit the team or a team to fit the strategy - We know that he has a defensive pedigree playing essentially a back 6 with 2 sitting defenders and a front 4, however is this really the best strategy in light of our current players? (Of the back 6 only 2 players are first team regulars - this does not say a lot about the players availaible for the basis of such a strategy), the modern game (Would we not be better suited to a 4-3-3 with a defensive midfielder sat with more attacking fullbacks which has been adopted by Holland and Croatia recently) and the national mentality (this could be questionned as romantacism, however I personally think that there is something in a country's mindset which transaltes to the style of a country's play - The Italians are defensive, German's efficient, Brazillian's attacking and we play a more fighting style which is naturally to attack the opposition irrespective of size - this doesn't fit with a defensive style of play - would we not be better off breeding an attack minded attitude which when combined with good passing and self-belief can translate into the relative success we saw in 88, 90 and 02?.

2) Static Full Backs - Since Cafu all the top teams are playing with attack minded fullbacks as an additional prong to their attack. McShane and Kilbane are playing relatively static at the moment and seem to be pre-occupied with the rigidity of the roles and the areas that they are meant to be patrolling. With two sitting midfielders, surely we need another attacking element, especially as good ball playing full-backs are increasingly required to start attacks in the modern passing football game. Appreciate that I sound like a stuck record, however am convinced that Foley and Ward as our fullbacks would do a better job both defensively and in driving us forward into attack.

3) Centre Midfield - Obviously a well-documented issue, however can't understand the reluctance to try out Garvan, O Toole or McCann. All three look the perfect model for the modern all-round centre-midfielders with Garvan and O'Toole looking brilliant against England at St Marys. If Trap does not feel that we have enough quality of player in this position, why not change the system and have Carlsey sitting so that we work with a tight back 5 allowing a more attacking midfielder like Reid to play, with duff and keane playing freer roles off Doyle in a 4-3-3.

4) Future development - There does appear to be little incentive for Trap to develop players for the future which is a worry. Naming and developing a sucessor internally would at least allow us to build a liverpool boot-room mentality and give us some consistency. Trap definitely needs to start justifying his wages and getting himself over to more matches to see these players for himself.

All in all, things do look good for the future, especially with the young talent we have comng through. Losing like we did on Wednesday is probably beneficial on the whole, as hopefully Trap will recognise the problems and appreciate the contribution that young talent with a fighting mentality from the lower leagues can make.

[irishfan86]

I don't think Trap should be criticized for not giving young players a chance per se, but rather for giving the wrong young players a chance!

Trap has faith in McShane (age 22), Darron Gibson (age 21), Andy Keogh (age 22), McGeady (age 22).

I don't look at his team and say, "I wish he brought through more youth."

I look at it and say, "why is he calling up these players (regardless of what age they are), when there are better players available?!"

[Splurge]

Since Capello took over at England he's been to 89 games. Trapattoni in contrast has been to 3.

Staunton was probably at 5 or 6 /weekend, didnt do him any good.

[danonion]

People who are Questioning Trappattoni havn't a clue about football to be honest.

This is a good debate and I probably shouldn't be picking on individual posts, but this kind of throwaway comment does not add anything to the discussion.

Why should we, the followers of the Ireland side have blind faith in the man in charge? I think people who don't question some of the obviously strange and substandard features of Trappattoni's reign "havn't a clue about football to be honest"

Yes we have 7 points from 9, but look at how fortuitous 4 of those points are .. Glenn Whelan scored a fluke goal against Georgia. If it wasn't for that goal which realistically belongs more on a goalkeeping bloobers real than anything else, Georgia would have scored an equaliser, rather than a late consolation. Against Cyprus, our central midfield (one of the things these posters who "havn't a clue about football" are criticizing) was SHOCKING.
We rode our luck and that game could have (and perhaps should have been) a draw. With those two games we were lucky to have 6 pointsl we could have easily had 2.

So bearing that in mind, how is it ignorant to question Trappattoni's methods?

Why is it wrong to question the fact that he doesn't go to football matches to see the players? If we are to avoid bizarre selection, he needs to go to games. Making that assertion is not evidence of one not having "a clue about football"