QuoteHow much better - apart from players missing who have we got - I'll agree on Andy Reid - but who else Carsley is too old, Garven untested at this level..Originally Posted by eirebhoy
It's extremely difficult to criticise Trapp given his career achievements, but if we were inhibited by our comparative lack of experience / knowledge / judgement we would not be on this site in the first place.
I was not happy with Trapp's appoinment. He's a big name with a big reputation, but was he the sort of prescription we needed after the insane chaos of the Staunton era? We seemed to be going from one extreme to the other. (to quote Yeats, "The best lack all conviction whilst the worst are full of passionate intensity".) It was more about the FAI doing public penance for the Staunton appointment rather than looking objectively at Irish football and working out what kind of direction we should be heading in. If we had had a crop of established quality Premiership players who were underperforming and needed whipping into shape then he may have been the ideal appoinment, but we didn't.
Trapp's approach is ruthlessly pragmatic. It is focused on devising a system that will get us through qualification, using players who are totally programmed to operate in that system. The system itself reflects a number of assumptions and perhaps also some of Trapp's own core convictions
The assumptions seem to be:
1) Ireland is not blessed with a wealth of creative talent so its about getting the most out of what we have.
2) Ireland's inherent stengths are commitment, physicality and a capacity to stifle and frustrate more technically gifted opponents
3) Ireland have some dangerous wide players and effective forwards. Rely on the wide channels to create scoring opportunities and set the rest of the team up to contain and defend.
I think that this analysis is flawed because the first two assumptions are not competely true.
We have more decent players than Trapp, Tardelli and Brady initially believed, but many happen to be playing outside The Premiership.
We are not a poor man's England. We have always produced good technical players and continue to do so. Our playing style should reflect and build on this aspect of our footballing tempremant. I think McCarthy is the only Irish manager of recent times who recognised this and had us playing real football.
Looking at the game on Wednesday, I think Beenhacker would have been a more sympathetic and progressive Irish manager. He would certainly not have chosen to ignore the talents of Reid, he would be looking to utilse and develop the potential of footballers like Foley, Garvan, McCann, Fahy, St Ledger, McCarthy. He would not entertain the delusion that the likes of McShane, Folan, Whelan, Bruce, etc will evet be effective international footballers. He would acknowledge that forward players like Keane and Doyle are not best served by a rigid 4-2-4 system with their supply coming almost exclusively from the flanks. Both of these strikes thrive on intelligent perceptive passes played either to their feet or into channels in front of them. He might even be able to appeal to the fragile psychology of Stephen Ireland and convince him that he would be the fulcrum of an exciting, adventurous and appealing style of play that would give him the recognition and fulfillment that he cherishes.
Trapp is a vastly experienced and talented coach, but I dont think he was or is what Irish football ideally needs. Looking ahead Owen Coyle is achieving great things at Burnley and playing open, attractive and progressive football. I think we should be keeping an eye on him for the future.
How much better - apart from players missing who have we got - I'll agree on Andy Reid - but who else Carsley is too old, Garven untested at this level..
But you've given it a lash anyways.
From what I can read your criticism is based on;
1.) the fact that you didn't fancy Trapattoni as a manager for us after the shambles of Stan and, more interesting,
2.) your assumption that Trapattoni seems to be making assumptions about Irish footballers in general.
3.) your assumption that Beenhakker would have picked a different team for a friendly game and that he could make S. Ireland's hair grow back, and finally
4.) Owen Coyle is greater than Trapattoni because Burnley are having a run of form on Sky Sports.
If Stan was given a qualification campaign to do his worse, why not let Trapattoni get on with his job and let's see where he can take us? What have we got to lose? It's not like we are regular WC or EC qualifiers. Give the man a chance and leave the OTT stuff to Dunphy.
Last edited by ifk101; 21/11/2008 at 11:28 AM.
Well said ifk101
Owen is doing a good job with Burnley at the moment but after the first two games of the season people wanted his head on a block in Burnley .
As for Dunphy well he is a clown we all know this he is just a laugh to listen to him go on .
Say what ever you want about Trap and his team they have a job to do and thank goodness they will not listen to internet know alls who no nothing about how to run a football nation ...........
i dont how u got point 4 from 3rd policemans post - from what i see he said we should look to him for the FUTURE - nothing about the him managing ireland now or being greater than trap
every1 wants and is going to give him a chance of course -but we are just questioning some of his current and past decisions that dont make sense. there is nothing OTT about doing that.
I didn't for one second imagine that my opinions would register with Trapp or anyone esle in a position of influence. I'm quite happy to share my thoughts with "internet know alls" like our goodselves.
Republic of Ireland vs Czech Republic: Henderson, Kelly, McShane, O'Shea, Finnan, Andy Reid (Quinn 72), Carsley, Douglas, Kilbane (Alan O'Brien 79), Duff, Keane.
Carsley too old and couple of players above untested too. That must be a worse lineup than last night.
Anyway, I'd be very surprised if we didn't dominate the midfield against Poland if we played Carsley, Reid and Garvan together.
I'm not so much fussed about reserves playing but I still think that we're just not using our best players even for the rigid roles that Trap wants.
If Trap has a system he insists on using that's no big deal for me but I fail to see how Andy Keogh can be seen as a right sided midfielder.
I just poseted in another thread that the best Irish midfield performance I've seen at any level in years was at St. Mary's where we played a 3 man midfield of Garvan, Stephen Quinn & JJ O'Toole. We had a pretty poor showing upfron in that game though.
I think we need to keep Duff in the side, and we need to keep Keane & Doyle in the team too.
However, I can see a 4-3-3 or 4-3-1-2 working.
You raised some valid points so don't worry about the name callers. We have yet to play our two group rivals and only then will we know how good or bad we are. If we play Italy and Bulgaria with the starting eleven that played against Cyprus (with two of our midfielders playing reserve team football)then we will struggle to get one point from the two games. The Italians especially will exploit Kilbane and McShane ruthlessly. And going a goal down to the Italians will mean game over. Hopefully Finnan will return from injury and that will make a big difference. If Whelan and Gibson improve enough in the coming months then draws at least are possible. But if both players are still playing reserve football then we are heading for null points from the two crucial games.
Last edited by Noelys Guitar; 21/11/2008 at 1:21 PM.
Hunt entering on the hour mark has the effect of giving the team a jump start. Trap has an evident reluctance in the competitive games to change things on the field even when some players are visibly running on fumes.
I hope Keogh is not ahead of Hunt in the pecking order. Duff/McGeady missing or taken off with Keogh starting/coming on as first choice sub. Hunt changed the game for us the other night.
"My intention is not to bring back Carsley or Reid because the players in those positions played well for me.
"At the moment, I know Carsley, Andy Reid, and Steven Reid. It's okay. When I took over I first learned that they were injured or other players did not want to come back so I said 'stay'.
"We built another team, another squad, they came to us with enthusiasm and they wanted to play for Ireland. They deserve respect. At the moment, I cannot go back because of my idea, I believe in the young players and I believe they are improving.
"Alex Ferguson believes in Gibson, and against Poland, Whelan was one of the best players on the pitch."
I trust him. He knows what he's doing. I've seen the keyboard warriors question consistently successful managers for years. They don't know ****. Will we qualify? I don't know. We don't have a great team. Central midfield has been a problem for a while - grey haired stopgaps or raw potential since Keane retired. Left back is a problem, for all Kilbane's effort. We've been organised, effective when we need to be. Three competitive games is nothing to judge a manager on.
Without doubt central midfield is an area for concern for Trapattoni but I still see what he is trying to do as a work in progress and I'm firmly of the belief that we are a much better side than we were under Stan.
It's understandable that there exists calls for players like Garvan, O'Toole, and McCann to come into the side. But past evidence has shown that it takes years rather than a couple of games for players of their age to settle into the national side. McGeady is the perfect example. Trapattoni doesn't have that time.
Based on the above you could further question why Trapattoni has gone for Gibson instead of other options available. But regardless he is trying different options in this position. Prior to the Cyprus, many of us, myself included, believed Miller would start because Trapattoni had previously played Miller and Whelan together against Serbia and Colombia. Knowledge of these games told him that that combination didn't work so he took a gamble on Gibson. Now that Gibson has had the chance to show what he can do in two games, maybe Trapattoni's opinion of the Whelan/Gibson combination has changed. Who knows, we could see a different midfield partnership against Georgia.
Also don't forget that Garvan, Rowlands and Potter have also been tested at central midfield by Trapattoni, albeit not in full internationals.
Despite his media quotes, I don't think he is ignorant to where our areas of weakness are. He's not going to come and publically criticised players, etc etc (although there is that youtube clip from his time at Bayern Munich).
im pretty sure we will qualify (more because of Bulgarias capitulation than much quality on our side) but i think we will be badly exposed at the finals if Trapp continues to pick these players...
i dont know, i respect Trapp and his judgement but i cant help but feel he is not making the most of what we have and he is not thinking long term.
It's more that he is thinking long term for this campaign to qualify/compete in the Finals, has faith in his current young midfield to improve to the standard he demands and just at least be capable to improve enough to do what's required as we move along the qualification campaign.
Certainly Whelan has expressed that his next task is to break into the Stoke team.
I can't say I'm convinced but more that at least it's a plan and one that the players believe in.
I will be a fan long term and this is one of my concerns which i feel i should express. And i also think a manager like Trappatoni, or any manager worht his salt, should want to leave a healthy legacy as well as achieving the more immediate goal of qualification.
Do we really want to qualify for this WC only to have to go through the whole blooding/developiong process all over again straight away after? One step forward, two steps back.
I think the next Irish manager is closely involved with the team at this moment in time
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