derry & Cliftonville

**gspain** · 21/11/2003, 12:20 PM

Originally posted by Shed End John
No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.

Cliftonville fans probably hate Linfield more than anyone else (Crusaders and Portadown would be close as would Derry City) however Linfield's main rivals are Glentoran and yes they do cheer when the Glens lose to Cliftonville.

There is a deep and bitter rivalry between the Blues and the Glens and no love lost. These games attract the biggest crowds of the season and are more passionate than Bohs v Rovers for example.

BTW I don't recall Cliftonville fans ever being banned from Windsor certainly not for a protracted period. The Reds were not able to play home games at Solitude v Linfield for 28 years. This was because of police advice although many Reds feel Linfield could have done more to help end it.

**Leviathan** · 21/11/2003, 11:51 PM

At the end of the day, those dark days are now well and truely fading. The loss of Belfast Celtic can never be measured, and remans to this day, one of the biggest travesties of IL football. We all grew up with the old stories of Linfield/BC games, the players, the atmosphere.. things that give the oul man a twinkle in his eye.. things that we never had the chance to experience.
As I said, we have moved on from that, and our main aim now is to improve the stndards at IL clubs, both stada and on the field.

DC made a self imposed exile, and are now quite content in the EL, that is their choice. I woukld love to see them back,ut most of their supporters asure me that won't be happening. What I (and others) want thm tod now, is to withdraw their membership of the IL and totally devote themselves to the EL. It isn't fair on any of the rest of the clubs on the Island thhat theyhave their finger inboth pies, wheras we have to mke do with what our Governing bodies give/offer.

We have all been talking about some sort of cup competition between both leagues, and I think that now would be a good time to try and instigate something. Even if it was the top 8 from each league, split into 4 groups of 4 .. the winners playing in semi finals. I think it could be a great occasion, and a great second cup competition, behind our FA cups.

The last thing is, we all know the past and what has happened, but it seems that too many are trying to politicise everything.

**ghosty** · 22/11/2003, 12:09 AM

No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.

Show me any rival fans who do not bait the opposite team whenever they score.

We have never been banned from Windsor while playing Linfield, in fact it's was the other way around linfield fans were banned from Solitude for 28 years. The reason for the ban? Linfield played Ballymena at Solitude in an Irish Cup semi-final, it ended up in a riot and in a roundabout way Cliftonville got punished, no Linfield fans for 28 years, no more big gates from the blues.

So i suggest you do a little research before you post.

**ghosty** · 22/11/2003, 12:20 AM

Originally posted by gspain
Cliftonville fans probably hate Linfield more than anyone else (Crusaders and Portadown would be close as would Derry City) however Linfield's main rivals are Glentoran and yes they do cheer when the Glens lose to Cliftonville.

There is a deep and bitter rivalry between the Blues and the Glens and no love lost. These games attract the biggest crowds of the season and are more passionate than Bohs v Rovers for example.

BTW I don't recall Cliftonville fans ever being banned from Windsor certainly not for a protracted period. The Reds were not able to play home games at Solitude v Linfield for 28 years. This was because of police advice although many Reds feel Linfield could have done more to help end it.

Very True, we do dispise Linfield more than any other club, Portadown are a very close 2nd though and the Crues, well no gives a **** about them to be honest.

Linfield could've ended the ban a lot sooner that is true m8, it was actually more dangerous for us to go to places like Lurgan to play Glenavon and Portadown in the late 80s and early 90s. But we never complained about it, even when a crowd of over 400 wrecked our buses outside Shamrock park vs portadown. But hey that's in the past and it's time to move on.

**Shed End John** · 24/11/2003, 2:46 PM

Originally posted by ghosty
[B]Show me any rival fans who do not bait the opposite team whenever they score.

So i suggest you do a little research before you post.

Certainly NOT us. We REALLY rub it in on Rovers when we score/win a game against them. Especially the home game back in August, down to 10 men, enter John O'Flynn and a famous 1-0 win.
Snide comments like your other point aren't helpful. I DO actually keep track of IL soccer mostly on BBC NI on a Saturday, and mostly to keep track of ex-eL players eg Pat Fenlon- Rovers, Pats, Bohs, Shels + 2 seasons with Linfield, Alan Gough- Shels, Derry, Glentoran, and Vinny Arkins- Shels, St Johnstone (SCO), and Portadown. Not a bad knowledge of the IL I'm sure you'll agree.

**James** · 24/11/2003, 2:58 PM

Originally posted by Shed End John
I DO actually keep track of IL soccer mostly on BBC NI on a Saturday, and mostly to keep track of ex-eL players eg Pat Fenlon- Rovers, Pats, Bohs, Shels + 2 seasons with Linfield, Alan Gough- Shels, Derry, Glentoran, and Vinny Arkins- Shels, St Johnstone (SCO), and Portadown. Not a bad knowledge of the IL I'm sure you'll agree.

i can name 5 or 6 players playing in Germany / Scotland / Italy / Spain yet i dont think that would qualify me as having 'not a bad knowledge' of the league. far from it..

anyway isnt pat fenlon managing shelbooooorne ?
alan gough is also in the EL playing away !
u might want to keep a better track of those 'ex-eL' players john when you're watchin BBC NI

**Shed End John** · 25/11/2003, 4:48 PM

Originally posted by James
anyway isnt pat fenlon managing shelbooooorne ?
alan gough is also in the EL playing away !
u might want to keep a better track of those 'ex-eL' players john when you're watchin BBC NI

A world class display of your undoubted ignorance/utter stupidity once again James. I wouldn't be on the same planet as everyone bar yourself if I didn't know that Nutsy has just managed Shels to the title two years after giving up his playing career to take the job, or that AG is in fact playing away with Derry. Idiot.

**James** · 25/11/2003, 5:08 PM

i'm sry john you're right
you naming those players in the Irish League section as a shining example of your knowledge of the game up their is perfectly right

i give up on this one

**Shed End John** · 25/11/2003, 5:28 PM

Originally posted by James
i'm sry john you're right
you naming those players in the Irish League section as a shining example of your knowledge of the game up their is perfectly right

Never said that, James, but, i'm sure that even my limited knowledge of IL soccer is more than 99.999% of football fans around Europe. Besides, you'll always see at least one goal that would deserve a feature in Eurogoals 'Goal of the Week'; and it IS half way enjoyable, especially when the Norths answer to Rangers - Linfield lose.

TheRealRovers · 25/11/2003, 7:01 PM

Originally posted by Shed End John
Certainly NOT us. We REALLY rub it in on Rovers when we score/win a game against them.

Well Cork and Shams isn't anywhere near as big as Cliftonville Vs L*nfield and I don't think Shams really see Cork as one of there biggest rivals

**Duncan Gardner** · 29/11/2003, 10:07 AM

Originally posted by ghosty
Very True, we do dispise Linfield more than any other club, Portadown are a very close 2nd though and the Crues, well no gives a **** about them to be honest.

Certainly not the three cars making up the wee reds' typical away support

**TommyT** · 09/12/2003, 10:36 PM

Originally posted by Shed End John
No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.

If ghosty drops back in he could confirm this but I thought Cliftonville lost their crunch match at Windsor that season (second last game) with Glen Ferguson scoring a belter from outside the box. I was at the game, I can't have been that ****ed.

Away fans have never been banned at the fixture, though Cliftonville fans were the only fans in the IL not allowed any seats at Windsor for a long period of time. Banning Linfield fans from Solitude for their antics on their way home from a game not against Cliftonville would've been a lot fairer, than banning Cliftonville from playing home games against Linfield on their home ground.

**TommyT** · 09/12/2003, 10:40 PM

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
They have a very different history to Belfast Celtic. The Reds were originally a mainly Protestant amateur club up until the 1970's. It was only demographic changes during the troubles that changed this.

I don't think Cliftonville would like to lose their identity in a merged club.

I think too much is made of the Reds past ''unionism''. They were and are a ''non-sectarian'' club but it should be remembered that the first president of the FAI was a Cliftonville man and in the 50s they played their 75th anninversary gameagainst Glasgow Celtic.

**Paddy Ramone** · 10/12/2003, 10:52 AM

Originally posted by TommyT
I think too much is made of the Reds past ''unionism''. They were and are a ''non-sectarian'' club but it should be remembered that the first president of the FAI was a Cliftonville man and in the 50s they played their 75th anninversary gameagainst Glasgow Celtic.

Cliftonville were founded in 1879 as an almost entirely protestant middle class amateur club. The founder James McAlery was inspired by Scottish amateurs Queen's Park the original anti-catholic club in Glasgow before Rangers. Demographic changes in the 1970's saw protestants moving out and Catholics moving in. Cliftonville also became professional attracting more support, most of it Catholic.

I remember reading somewhere too about crowd trouble between Cliftonville and Belfast Celtic supporters in the 1900's. Glasgow Celtic would have been more acceptable visitors to Belfast back in 1954 because it was before the troubles and also the famous Bertie Peacock, a protestant from Coleraine was playing for them at the time.

There is also a hockey club called Cliftonville who moved from the area to a protestant area. I read that local youths burned down the clubhouse because of "nationalist" associatons with the Cliftonvile name.

**gspain** · 10/12/2003, 3:24 PM

Originally posted by TommyT
I think too much is made of the Reds past ''unionism''. They were and are a ''non-sectarian'' club but it should be remembered that the first president of the FAI was a Cliftonville man and in the 50s they played their 75th anninversary gameagainst Glasgow Celtic.

Agreed. there is far too much made of unionist/nationist clubs. football is watched and played by both comminities in NI and in many cases they follow the same clubs. No club practises sectarian policies now and only one probably ever did.

Cliftonville were an amateur club with a small (mainly protestant support) until the late 60's when the demographics in north Belfast changed.

Cliftonville did play Celtic in 54/5 although I wasn't aware that it was their 75th anniversary celebration and I do have the programme at home and don't recall seeing it on the programme but that means nothing. BTW a Peter Doherty Coleraine/Crusaders select met Celtic twice in the 50's too.

**Paddy Ramone** · 10/12/2003, 3:51 PM

Originally posted by gspain
BTW a Peter Doherty Coleraine/Crusaders select met Celtic twice in the 50's too.

Wasn't Peter Doherty a Catholic? He was the successful manager of NI before Billy Bingham.

Celtic players have certainly been more prominent than Rangers in Northern Ireland sides. Celtic players to play for NI include Charlie Tully, Bertie Peacock, Anton Rogan and Neil Lennon.

**ghosty** · 10/12/2003, 4:33 PM

Linfield beat us 3 -0 to move within 4 points with 2 games to go.

We were not allowed to use the North Stand for years even though 2 of the games at Windsor were supposed to be our 'Home' games. We went to windsor that year and had 3 1-0 victories. Our last home game against Glentoran was made to kick off 1 hour earlier than Linfields away game with Coleraine....wonder why that was

Anyway we drew 1-1 and a Wesley Lamont inspired Coleraine held the blues to a 0-0 draw for us to win the league with a game to spare. Ironically Wesley lamont was an ex Linfield keeper, so how good was that.

Oh and Duncan i'd look at your own travelling support b4 you slag anyone else about theirs.

**gspain** · 11/12/2003, 7:10 AM

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Wasn't Peter Doherty a Catholic? He was the successful manager of NI before Billy Bingham.

Celtic players have certainly been more prominent than Rangers in Northern Ireland sides. Celtic players to play for NI include Charlie Tully, Bertie Peacock, Anton Rogan and Neil Lennon.

I believe Peter Doherty was protestant but I don't think discussing a player's religion is particularly relevant.

Plenty of players from NI have worn the light blue of Rangers

Among them

Bertie Manderson made over 450 appearances between the wars. - Began his career at Cliftonville btw and also played for Belfast Celtic.

Sam English probably best remembered for the tragic accidental death of John Thomson. He was also capped for Ireland on a few occasions.

Bily Simpson was a legend in the 50's former Linfield great too - missed the 58 world cup due to injury.

John McClelland and Jimmy Nicholl in more recent times and I think Lee Feeney also made the first team.

**Paddy Ramone** · 11/12/2003, 8:15 AM

Originally posted by gspain
I believe Peter Doherty was protestant but I don't think discussing a player's religion is particularly relevant.

In Martin O'Neill's biography Terry Neill is quoted as saying that Peter Doherty was Catholic. While normally this wouldn't be relevant, I think it is in the context of Northern Ireland where there are allegations of anti-catholicism.

I keep hearing for instance from Celtic fans that Martin O'Neill was the first Catholic to captain Northern Ireland. Also, I read in Celtic fanzine "the Alternative View" that Bertie Peacock and Charlie Tully were booed by Northern Ireland fans constantly. But Peacock in an interview in the Celtic View said he never had any trouble playing for NI.