derry & Cliftonville

[Duncan Gardner]

What are you suggesting, Lopez? That because they weren't punished in 1948, they should be now? It's accepted the Irish League acted crassly then. Sins of the fathers, and all that...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
What are you suggesting, Lopez? That because they weren't punished in 1948, they should be now? It's accepted the Irish League acted crassly then. Sins of the fathers, and all that...

I was asking if Linfield were ever punished. As you kindly answered, they weren't (I take it not even a one match ban behind closed doors or a small fine).

Perhaps liam went over the top in suggesting a life ban for Linfield, but then that is what Belfast Celtic effectively got when they were the innocent party. What would you suggest would be the appropriate punishment for a club whose fans run onto the pitch and deliberately corner and break an opponent professional's leg?

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez: an appropriate punishment, applying the rather more more rigorous standards of two generations on, would be games behind closed doors for a fixed period. This was actually considered for Chelsea in 1988, after the riot in their relegation play off with Middlesbrough. In the end they were allowed to keep the West Stand open. But in practice, leaving aside Linfield's domination of the IFA politburo at the time, any club thus punished would have been likely to sue if the punishment was too severe.

Davros: if you're suggesting it would be potentially dangerous for BC to reform and play games now, I'd disagree. In fact the relationship between Linfield and Cliftonville, and other teams with nationalist support, is now reasonably cordial, if not friendly. Blues fans are back at Solitude and this hasn't caused problems. And, as I mentioned, Lurgan Tic pinched the union jack from Seaview last term without starting a major incident.

Belfast Celtic lives on, but in practice Donegall Celtic would inherit their status as the main nationalist team if successful. Probably at the expense of Cliftonville.

[liam88]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Because it was 55 years ago. You might as well ask why are Germany or Japan still playing internationals?

Germany and Japan commited outrages in a war-Linfield commited outrages during a football match. Mabye there's a differece, mabye not, but Belfast Celtic shouldn't have had to suffer.

Mabye not a lifelong ban but by letting them go unpunished doesn't it hint that this kind of violence and ignorant biggotory is acceptable. This wasn't a riot-there was not skermish between two sets of fans, this was blantent, unprovocked assult assult-(feel free to dissagree).

Surley football should carry on without this-mabye Linfield should so they are sorry for their 'forefathers sins' by funding a belfast celtic reformation.........logical and practical

[Dodge]

A great thread is in the process of being hijacked by muppets here...

Ah well...

[lopez]

Originally posted by Dodge
A great thread is in the process of being hijacked by muppets here...

Thanks for letting us know about that Muhammad Atta. Box cutters or shoe bombs today?

[Éanna]

Originally posted by lopez
Thanks for letting us know about that Muhammad Atta.

leave Muhammed alone. Sound bloke apparently

[lopez]

Originally posted by Éanna
leave Muhammed alone. Sound bloke apparently

If you need some town planning.

Getting back to the business in hand, DG, you mention Linfield's dominance of the IFA 'politburo', (I thought this was IL territory) but I don't normally say this about your offerings, but isn't that a tad simplistic. I can't imagine one club having such power over an FA, not in a democracy (if albeit an ethnic democracy) like NI. So they have the ground that NI play on, but they also need the income. By claiming the IL 'acted crassly' suggests you are offering the stock unionist/British answer to every f**k up, from the famine to '69, in Ireland and that it is: 'Sorry. We were basically a bunch of idiots. No malice intended.'

I think things run deeper than that. It is forgotten that many Linfield fans were sickened by the attack on Jimmy Jones, some unsurprisingly vowing never to return. Looking away from Linfield we see a Senator WH Wilson, president of the North West of Ireland FA, who claimed that same season that because the IFA committee had one Catholic member, it was this that ensured a NI (all-Ireland) side that had 10 RCs. Also there is one thing that stands out reading about this match, and that was a Celtic forward's observation of policemen throwing their hats in the air at the Linfield equaliser, which convinced him that there would be little protection at the final whistle. Did Linfield run the RUC aswell?

[gspain]

A few points here before the conspiracy theories go mad.

It was Linfield supporters who attacked Jimmy Jones not the club or officials - the police actually did intervene as did his own goalkeeper to save him from a bigger beating.

Linfield were punished - can't recall exactly but I don't think they played at home again until March. Yes it probably wasn't as severe as it should have been.

Neither club adopted sectarian policies at the time - Celtic never did and Linfield almost certainly did afterwards until approx 1988.

The terms "nationalist" and "unionist" clubs are not appropriate here. this is an effort to politicise the incident

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
A few points here before the conspiracy theories go mad.

It was Linfield supporters who attacked Jimmy Jones not the club or officials - the police actually did intervene as did his own goalkeeper to save him from a bigger beating.

Who's to say they were Linfield supporters. If you mean fans who turn up every week to follow the team then perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you mean the hangers on that go to high profile inter-ethnic riots such as the Linfield v Donegal Celtic game of the early nineties, then these people can hardly be termed Linfield supporters.

Regarding Linfield's culpability, Jones himself doesn't agree with you, blaming a highly inflammatory announcement by club secretary Joe Mackey who blamed Bob Bryson's injury on Jones, for the riot. Whether there was any sectarian element to this 'announcement' is doubtful seeing that Jones was protestant, but it was in hindsight stupid.

As for the police, Jones' testimony says he saw one policemen saying to the crowd: ' If you don't stop kicking him, I'll use my baton.' Is this the same RUC that went on to international fame by kneeing peaceful demonstrators in the cojones in 1969? A journalist by the name of James Kelly wrote that he witnessed the police 'standing around' doing nothing. Still we can discount this obvious Chucky's account as a pack of lies, but not so the Linfield supporter who wrote to the Irish News saying the same thing. Once again, no malice intended, just supidity?

Originally posted by gspain
Linfield were punished - can't recall exactly but I don't think they played at home again until March. Yes it probably wasn't as severe as it should have been.

Linfield had a two match ban at WP which lasted until 22nd January. But here's the twist: One game, against Ballymena United was switched from home to away, so that the away game later that April was now to be at Windsor Park. Ballymena were far from pleased with this and denied that they 'had helped out' Linfield.

Originally posted by gspain
Neither club adopted sectarian policies at the time - Celtic never did and Linfield almost certainly did afterwards until approx 1988.

What reason does Linfield give for this?

Originally posted by gspain
The terms "nationalist" and "unionist" clubs are not appropriate here. this is an effort to politicise the incident.

A ridiculous statement. Belfast was a divided city, even in these times. Both clubs were central to their communities because of their location in South-west Belfast and their founders. Belfast Celtic were a nationalist club from the start. It was they that lent Celtic Park to Winston Churchill in 1912 when he couldn't promote Home Rule at City Hall due to demonstrators. As for Linfield how many Catholics have been on the club's board? Neither club may have wished for this scenario, but that's what they got.

As for the match, so a Protestant got his leg broken instead of a Catholic, it must mean it had nothing to do with the religious/sectarian/ethnic differences between the two clubs. This sounds like the flip coin of 'its OK2BOO'. Booing the Huns at Lansdowne Road sectarian? How can it be when the player isn't a prod? Suggesting the fact that both clubs took their support from one side or the other of the political fence had no bearing on this riot is simply naive.

[lopez]

Cheers Mr Moderator. At first I thought this was not national team stuff, but now I see we have been landed with a load of links by some nutcase from Ipswich (with links to Galway - they must be delighted) going on about his dog and her pungent culo. FFS hombre!!!!

[gspain]

Originally posted by lopez
Who's to say they were Linfield supporters. If you mean fans who turn up every week to follow the team then perhaps yes, perhaps no. If you mean the hangers on that go to high profile inter-ethnic riots such as the Linfield v Donegal Celtic game of the early nineties, then these people can hardly be termed Linfield supporters.

Regarding Linfield's culpability, Jones himself doesn't agree with you, blaming a highly inflammatory announcement by club secretary Joe Mackey who blamed Bob Bryson's injury on Jones, for the riot. Whether there was any sectarian element to this 'announcement' is doubtful seeing that Jones was protestant, but it was in hindsight stupid.

As for the police, Jones' testimony says he saw one policemen saying to the crowd: ' If you don't stop kicking him, I'll use my baton.' Is this the same RUC that went on to international fame by kneeing peaceful demonstrators in the cojones in 1969? A journalist by the name of James Kelly wrote that he witnessed the police 'standing around' doing nothing. Still we can discount this obvious Chucky's account as a pack of lies, but not so the Linfield supporter who wrote to the Irish News saying the same thing. Once again, no malice intended, just supidity?


Linfield had a two match ban at WP which lasted until 22nd January. But here's the twist: One game, against Ballymena United was switched from home to away, so that the away game later that April was now to be at Windsor Park. Ballymena were far from pleased with this and denied that they 'had helped out' Linfield.


What reason does Linfield give for this?


A ridiculous statement. Belfast was a divided city, even in these times. Both clubs were central to their communities because of their location in South-west Belfast and their founders. Belfast Celtic were a nationalist club from the start. It was they that lent Celtic Park to Winston Churchill in 1912 when he couldn't promote Home Rule at City Hall due to demonstrators. As for Linfield how many Catholics have been on the club's board? Neither club may have wished for this scenario, but that's what they got.

As for the match, so a Protestant got his leg broken instead of a Catholic, it must mean it had nothing to do with the religious/sectarian/ethnic differences between the two clubs. This sounds like the flip coin of 'its OK2BOO'. Booing the Huns at Lansdowne Road sectarian? How can it be when the player isn't a prod? Suggesting the fact that both clubs took their support from one side or the other of the political fence had no bearing on this riot is simply naive.

Point taken re Linfield supporters - agreed. I was however trying to point out that the club did not condone or do anything. I'm also not trying to justify the incident. It was sickening.

At best Joe Mackey was stupid and irreseponsible to announce that "Bob Bryson has been taken to hospital with a broken ankle" The announcement probably was a major contributing factor to the attack but a local derby with 8 men v 10 and a game that finished 1-1 with 2 goals in the last 10 minutes was a pretty passionate affair anyway.

I never justified anything based on the fact that Jones was a protestant - Bryson incidently was either Catholic or married to a Catholic (heard both) and also a former Shamrock rovers player. He only died recently aged 84 having lived in Newry.

I've no doubt the riot was sectarian but it was not a unionist/british/police conspiracy to put Celtic out of football.

Linfield did have undue influence in the corridors of power in Northern Ireland football (some say they still do). So did Shamrock Rovers for many years and indeed Dundalk for a while in the Republic not to mention Man Utd across the water. Big clubs get favours - sad but true.

It is not appropriate to pin nationalist and unionist labels on either club. They were/are football clubs albeit in nationalists or unionist areas. Many fans of one club actually went to watch the other when their won team was away as they were the big 2 at the time and Glentoran only came to real prominence when Celtic went out.

Linfield have never admitted to any sectarian policy however as they didn't have any Catholic players from approx 1950-1988 then they probably did and it is widely understood that they did. The ending of it was probably triggered by Eric Bowyer then manager i nan interview with a Linfield fanzine saying he would love to sign a Catholic but didn't think it would go down well. This was after 1988 but they probably didn't realsie that Tony Coly was catholic

[lopez]

Originally posted by gspain
I never justified anything based on the fact that Jones was a protestant - Bryson incidently was either Catholic or married to a Catholic (heard both) and also a former Shamrock rovers player. He only died recently aged 84 having lived in Newry.

Cheers Gary. I didn't suggest you did. Apologies for this. The religion of players would be lost on most of the crowd, because they wouldn't know. Would you know the religion of all the players on your club? Besides you and I couldn't give a f*ck. However the significance of the match would not be lost on these same people.

Originally posted by gspain
I've no doubt the riot was sectarian but it was not a unionist/british/police conspiracy to put Celtic out of football.

If it was, then it was an expensive one. Belfast Celtic were the golden goose, that not even Derry City or Cliftonville could replace.

Originally posted by gspain
Linfield did have undue influence in the corridors of power in Northern Ireland football (some say they still do). So did Shamrock Rovers for many years and indeed Dundalk for a while in the Republic not to mention Man Utd across the water. Big clubs get favours - sad but true.

Clearly they did, but as we will see with Ferdinand, even big clubs will not get away with everything. In 1920 the club threatened legal action against the IL over the infamous Irish Cup semi against Glentoran, which the IL caved into. They subsequently withdrew because of the civil state of Belfast.

Originally posted by gspain
It is not appropriate to pin nationalist and unionist labels on either club. They were/are football clubs albeit in nationalists or unionist areas. Many fans of one club actually went to watch the other when their won team was away as they were the big 2 at the time and Glentoran only came to real prominence when Celtic went out.

The clubs were not affiliated to any church or political party, but it is clear that they were infiltrated by politics. Harry Midgley, a former Labour MP to Stormont (he was a vociferous supporter of the Spanish Second Republic) turned Unionist, and accused of stirring Linfield players up with 'party songs' on the day of the game, was an official of the club. Celtic's post season American tour included them walking out with the tricolour.

Originally posted by gspain
Linfield have never admitted to any sectarian policy however as they didn't have any Catholic players from approx 1950-1988 then they probably did and it is widely understood that they did. The ending of it was probably triggered by Eric Bowyer then manager i nan interview with a Linfield fanzine saying he would love to sign a Catholic but didn't think it would go down well. This was after 1988 but they probably didn't realsie that Tony Coly was catholic

It seemed that a protest by an American priest who threatened to get big American corporations to boycott the club helped stop this.

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. Perhaps I exaggerated Linfield's influence over the NI football authorities in the 1940s. I mentioned this only to illustrate the likely reaction to punitive action against the club (indeed, any club), at the time.

A gentle word of advice. If you're going to imply that I'm an apologist for unionism/ the British establishment, best wait until I say something apologetic on their behalf. 'The football authorities acted crassly in 1948' is quite clearly a strong criticism of them, not a whitewash.

Your potted history above is otherwise pretty fair- Gary's is rather too generous to the Blues.

Davros. I'm pleased to say the Irish League doesn't share your cynicism. For years, Linfield couldn't visit Solitude and Cliftonville had the hassle of extra away matches. Now both sets of fans can travel, and do without too many problems. Unlike the West Ham support in N17 the other day, alas...

[lopez]

DG. As I know you off this forum, I can vouch that you are no apologist for discrimination, which I think is what you are getting at here.

This isn't about unionism or the British establishment. The British government never gave a flying f**k about Northern Ireland until the balloon went up. The people on 'the mainland' gave the place a thought only when the bombs arrived.

This is about a sporting organisation that was, in my belief, to use a succinct buzzword, 'institutionally' sectarian. Crassly is what you describe incompetent idiots, and sounds similar to the stock answer that NI society, in areas that were dominated by unionism (and it must be added, Nationalists - if we look at the employment records of Newry Council), was not deliberately sectarian. Even today, this is something that sticks in the throats of David Trimble and his posse, let alone the good reverend's jihad. I've only ever heard one politician admit this and that was David Ervine of the UVF's political wing.

I would offer that deep down many in the Irish League and the lower reaches of the Irish FA detested Belfast Celtic on religious/ethnic grounds and were glad to see their departure. The opportunity to act 'crassly' - ie: in this case, do nothing excpet a token punishment - was enough to ensure this.

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. Choice of adverb apart, I think we're broadly agreed!

Looking forward, the important thing surely is that all clubs and their supporters feel comfortable in the IL, or playing IL teams. My message to Dav above shows this is improving.

PS Can you please stop sending me pictures of Will Carling's dimple. Are you really a secret egg-chaser?

[lopez]

The time has also come to step a toe into an all-Ireland cup. This ran in the late seventies/1980 when the inevitable rent-a-bigot jumped on the bus for his sojourn down Mexico way. This I think is a move forward: Comes with no strings attached (as it has been going in many forms since partition - in fact it is a recognition of partition itself); would generate more money than Glenavon against Ballyclare for the fourth time; and is favoured by many Northern unionist fans. Poor clubs will obviously suffer as in the Champions League, but it will also give many of the outsiders something to strive for.

As for 'bum-chin', you have been making some fierce accusations in your correspondence. Firstly that I am a Celtic supporter (OK I pop into see them if they're in London, but I haven't got the Celtic Song as my ringtone) and then I don't like rugger, after mentioning that I was a youth hopeful(unhopeful) at London Irish. All that real ale is catching up, I'm afraid.

[Duncan Gardner]

Agreed. Both leagues already have a secondary cup competition; they could run separately up to the QF stage, then the eight winners go into an open draw?

[Duncan Gardner]

Quite. There's no chance of an AI league, for the reasons discussed already. The Ulster and Munster clubs wouldn't want the travelling, the unionists can't accept the politics, the Guards don't fancy busloads of yahoos travelling to and forth regularly.

So a small cup it should be initially.

[Shed End John]

Originally posted by gspain
Linfield fans would always cheer for example if Cliftonville were beating Glentoran.

No they would NOT. When Cliftonville won the League a few years back they beat Linfield 1-0 at Windsor Park in a crunch game. When they scored all the Cliftonville fans went mad and stuck their fingers up at the Linfield fans, while the players let the Linfield Kop know what it meant in no uncertain terms.
Also, both clubs banned away fans at their meetings up until about 8-10 years ago; and there was so much violence at one Linfield-Cliftonville game that Cliftonville had to play 'home' games against Linfield at Windsor for a good number of years.