derry & Cliftonville

[Lux Interior]

Originally posted by lopez
Yeah dump them and put in a re-formed Belfast Celtic instead. While we're at it let's ditch Glentoran, Coleraine, Portadown and any other 'sectarian' team. Anyway, someone earlier said that Linfield fans have complained about Coleraine fans' sectarian chanting. Yep, I'm still having trouble getting to grips with that one.

To be fair, chum - and I ain't the biggest Blues fan (no sh.it!) - there's an assumption in your post that Linfield fans are supportive, or indifferent, to sectarian chanting when the reality is that the majority of them would like to see the back of these sickening sing-songs.

[lopez]

To be fair, chum - and I ain't the biggest Blues fan (no sh.it!) - there's an assumption in your post that Linfield fans are supportive, or indifferent, to sectarian chanting when the reality is that the majority of them would like to see the back of these sickening sing-songs.

Not really. Just this: Linfield have in the past bought players on account of their religion, a practice that they now discontinue; Linfield's fan base is similar or identical to Rangers, so they can hardly point fingers at others' own sectarianism; I agree that the bulk of Linfield's week-to-week fans are sick of sectarianism. However there is a probability that this core would be increased for 'sensitive' games - as has been proved in the past - by passive suppporters whose interest is purely sectarian.

[BannsideBoy]

Not really. Just this: Linfield have in the past bought players on account of their religion, a practice that they now discontinue; Linfield's fan base is similar or identical to Rangers, so they can hardly point fingers at others' own sectarianism; I agree that the bulk of Linfield's week-to-week fans are sick of sectarianism. However there is a probability that this core would be increased for 'sensitive' games - as has been proved in the past - by passive suppporters whose interest is purely sectarian.

That unfortunately is not just restricted to linfield however. It can be said for most teams in ireland, who has not got their thug elememt.

[Lux Interior]

Aye,BB.....but without re-visiting old ground,their fan base likes to portray or a substantial minority(If not majority!)like to portray themselves as most 'loyal',blah etc.

Unless that "loyalty" crosses over into ugly sectarian singing, then nailing your colours to a RW&B mast is hardly UN intervention material

[dortie]

This must be the longst active thread ever. Can we all just agree

Cliftonville are great.

Derry are whinging ****s.

Coleraine are fascists.

Planters out.

That is all.

You forgot Cliftonville are ****.......

3-0....and we played half of our reserves

[TommyT]

You forgot Cliftonville are ****.......

3-0....and we played half of our reserves

Ah stop whinging.

[dortie]

Ah stop whinging.

Not whinging....Im telling the simple facts of life....they are **** and so is the league they play in (as we told Jim Boyce as he walked past us)

[BannsideBoy]

Well if I remember an irish league XI beat an eircom league XI the last time they met?

[1Davy]

I have read some of the posts on this forum, however as the number of pages on this subject is quite long, i have to be honest and say i have not read all of them, but only read some of them.
The allocation of the 'New' University was raised, and don't be fooled by the comments that the old Stormont Government made this decision for any other reason than a sectarian one.
The then Government set up a committee to look into the best place to site the university, and they came up with Derry, yet there recommendations were discarded.

However it's the disgraceful attitude of the IFA towards Derry City that i want to talk about. A couple of years or so ago, i posted the message below on the ILF, as the same debate was going on there.

So let me tell you about Derry City’s exit from the IL. Here are the facts. Not a bias slant, just the facts and the events that led up to our withdrawal from the Irish League. Make of it, as you will.


Many reasons have been given as to why Derry City play their football in the eL rather than the IL. Some are close to the truth while some others are so far out you wonder where it comes from. So if you bear with me I’ll do my best to explain the reasons why we did end up withdrawing from the IL.

First let me take you back prior to the ‘troubles’. Whenever we played a cup game against a Belfast team, if it went to a replay, it would inevitably have to be played in Belfast. It took Derry years and years of arguing with the IFA about the unfairness in that before the IFA climbed down. However instead of these games being played in the obvious choice of Coleraine, the games were played in Ballymena, which is about 2/3 way to Belfast.

In 1964 we won the Irish Cup and thus qualified for Europe. In the first round we played Steaua Bucharest and were beaten 5-0 on aggregate. That same year we won the league, and that meant that the following year we would be back playing in Europe. This time we drew the Norwegian team FK Lynn. In the first game we were beaten 5-3 in Oslo. The return leg in the Brandywell was played in very bad weather. It had rained incessantly from the previous day, but that didn’t stop a full house watch Derry City win 5-1 and be the first team in the IL to win a two legged European Cup tie. The fans went home drenched, but delighted, what they didn’t know was that there were forces at work out there, who would deny Derry their night of glory.

In the next round Derry drew Belgium champions Anderlecht. As soon as the draw was made, the IFA let it be made known that the Brandywell pitch would be inspected before the IFA would allow the game to be played. Only six members of the committee turned up on the night the IFA debated the issue, and they refused to let the Derry City representative attend the meeting, The committee recommended to the European Union that Derry City be banned from playing their home games at the Brandywell. Derry of course reacted in anger and said, “No Brandywell, No match.”
Now Anderlecht visited the Brandywell and said they had no bother with the Brandywell pitch. One of their officials had claimed that in another European game, they had played on a pitch of cinders. The EU had no problems with Derry playing at home, they said it was up to the IFA. The IFA stood by their decision, and after the first leg in Belgium, where Derry were beaten 9-0, they withdrew from the competition. What was so angering was the fact that the year before when Derry played Steaua and were beaten, the Brandywell wasn’t a problem, but as soon as they won a game they were banned by their own association. Unique in the history of European football.

By 1969 trouble had erupted all over the North , British troops had entered Derry to restore calm. Because of the ban on the RUC and the British military entering the Bogside, the IFA banned all games at the Brandywell, because they couldn’t be policed adequately. Derry played 10 successive games away from home and the club lost a lot of revenue.



Harry Cavan, the IFA President, made a statement saying that there was no bias towards Derry City, and that they could again play in Europe, as soon as their ground was brought up to standard. However he was not prepared to tell anyone what that standard was.
On Sept 25th the IL vetoed a Gold Cup against Ards. The Derry Citizens Action Committee guaranteed they would provide stewards for the game, and Ards to their credit, said they would play, but the IL wouldn’t listen. On Oct 18th Derry played their first home game against Ards, in the IL. But when Derry drew Linfield in the semi-final of the cup, Derry City were amazed to be told, that they had to travel to the Oval for the game. A very low gate of £900, showed how angry the Derry supporters were. The game was marred by hooligans from a section of the Linfield support, who poured into the empty seats in the main stand, and abused Derry fans with sectarian ranting. For the record, Linfield won 2-1.
Derry’s home league game against Linfield, was moved by the IFA to Coleraine. The reason given for that was that there MIGHT be repercussions against the Linfield supporters, for their behaviour in the cup-tie. And to rub it in, the IFA ordered Derry to pay Linfield £75, guaranteed to away teams. The gate was only £70, and of course Derry lost heavily. So the disgraceful behaviour of the Linfield hooligans was rewarded by the IFA.

The following season, The Security Council banned home games against the Glens and Linfield. This again angered Derry, for they found it incredulous that they were being told, that it wasn’t safe for Glentoran and Linfield supporters to come to the Brandywell, but it was ok for Derry supporters to go to Windsor and East Belfast. Derry played six away games before they played their first home game of the season at the Brandywell.

On Nov the SC amazingly decided that Derry should play Linfield in Windsor Park. Derry refused to travel, as they said their players would be at risk, and couldn’t accept that their players were in no danger. The Irish League Rules Revision Committee (there’s a mouthful) accepted Derry’s reason for not travelling. But then ordered Derry to pay Linfield £300 and awarded the 2 points to Linfield. Amazing, but just another nail in the coffin.

Again Linfield were Derry’s opponents in the semi-final of the cup, but this time the IFA relented and played the game at Coleraine. This was Derry’s last cup game against Linfield, and for the record Derry won 1-0.
Derry faced Distillery in the final, and a major shock was, that Windsor Park was appointed as the venue. No amount of protest would budge the IFA, they were implacable, so under duress Derry went ahead with the game.
This match became known as ‘The Silent Final’. Derry sold only 150 of 2000 stand tickets. The Final was also marred by trouble, when opposing Belfast factions rioted on the unreserved side of the ground. Cars were also attacked as they tried to leave the area around Windsor Park. What a contrast from the 1964 Final when 28000 watched the game against Glentoran without a hint of trouble.
Harry Cavan also let it be known, that if Derry won the Cup they would not be allowed to play in Europe.
Again the IFA showed they had absolutely no sympathy for Derry when they ordered them to play their postponed game against Linfield at Windsor Pk.

In season 70-71, after three successive games at home Derry played Ballymena Utd. During the game, and unnoticed to those who were attending the game, a gang entered
the adjoining Showgrounds. There they took the Ballymena team bus, pushed it along the Lone Moor Road and on to Foyle Road, where they set it alight. This was to have disastrous consequences for Derry City, and was the start of the countdown to the demise of Derry City in the IL. Ballymena and their official were magnanimous in their praise of Derry City and their official who got them transport to take them home. Many then jumped on the bandwagon and demanded a ban of all games in the Brandywell. The IFA quickly accepted the ban.

City tried to arrange to have their home games in the mean time played in Limavady, but ‘other interests’ in Limavady let it be known they would not be welcome. Derry then asked if they could use Finn Harps ground in Ballybofey, but that also was turned down, by the IFA.
In the meantime Coleraine, offered their ground, and as Derry had no alternative, they accepted.

When Derry was drawn at ‘home’ against Ballyclare Comrades in the IFA Cup, the IFA acted like something straight out of the comics. Coleraine were drawn against Distillery who were also homeless. They were supposed to play the game in Seaview, But Cruasaders were also drawn at home, so Distillery had to play their ‘home’ game in Coleraine, and Derry had to play their ‘home’ game in Ballyclare, where the hostility of the home crowd was very perceptible.

On Aug 7th, the following season, the security forces and the IFA indicated they were ready to let games resume at the Brandywell. But the IL announced that it was not safe security wise. In other words, they were telling the security forces that they knew better than them. To spotlight the intransigence of the IL was the fact that the Derry City Greyhound Racing Company had commenced ‘the dogs’ and there had been no difficulty getting breeders from all over the north to participate.

SEE NEXT POST FOR FINAL PART.

[1Davy]

. On Sept 6th Derry were informed officially by the security authorities in the city that as far they were concerned competitive senior soccer could be played at the Brandywell. Derry immediately despatched a letter to the Emergency Committee of the League, informing them of the security decision. Was that the end of it, was it hell.

The Emergency Committee replied to the letter by informing Derry that their registered ground was Coleraine. What a slap in the face. Derry naturally reacted by telling them, that like seven years earlier, “No Brandywell, no match”. The IFA in returned ordered Derry to play their ‘home’ game against Bangor in Coleraine. Derry simply said “No”…..The next move is up to the League”.
Derry continued to play their away games, but it was getting more futile. Then the IL made an announcement, that a special meeting would be held by the Irish League Management Committee on Oct 7th. What had happened was, that Portadown asked the IL to rescind the ban on matches at the Brandywell

At the meeting a vote was held among the senior teams. For going back to play at the Brandywell were, Portadown (the proposers) Bangor, Cliftonville, Ballymena Utd, and naturally Derry themselves. Against the motion were, Linfield, Glentoran, Crusaders, Ards, Glenavon and unbelievably Distillery. Our neighbours Coleraine abstained.
That night we found out who really were our friends.

On Friday Oct 13th, the Derry Board met. The decision was to withdraw from the Irish League, and all it’s other competitions. The decision was unanimous.
Derry City remained out of senior soccer for 13 years, until they were welcomed into the eircom League.

I hope this clears up some of the different opinions that have been knocked around about City’s exit from the IL. I would ask you to think how would you feel if your club was treated as shamelessly as we were. Imagine being banned from playing in Europe by your own association. We the people in Derry know that the reasons for banning us not only from Europe, but also from participating in senior soccer was taken for sectarian reasons and for sectarian reasons only. Just look at the amount of trouble there has been in IL grounds over the years, and ask yourself what punishment did the clubs receive.

Now on hindsight we have to say we owe Harry Cavan and his IL a big thank you for forcing us out. Last night we played a derby game against Finn Harps. The stand was packed by Derry City and Finn Harps supporters. We stood together, we cheered our respective teams together, and we left the ground together. That could, and would not happen if we were in the IL.
Now we are being told that things have changed from those days in the IL. Maybe they have, but there is an awful lot of bitterness directed at us for no other reason, than that we are perceived to be a nationalist team

Have they IFA moved on? For years they refused entry to the League to Donegal Celtic and Lurgan Celtic. They were by-passed for inferior teams, and were only allowed entry to the IL on the week they were to go court over it. Why, was it because they also perceived as nationalist teams?
There are good people in the IL and we were treated very well By Billy Mc Cowbrey a few years ago when we played Linfield in a Charity game for one of their players. We of course would love to be playing Portadown and the Glens, but not at the expense of having to do away with our games against Shels, Pats or the Bohs. Maybe in the not too distant future this will happen, but just not at the minute.

Hope I haven’t bored you all, but I just thought there may be some thing’s here that may be of interest to some of you.

[lopez]

A good post there Davy. How did this go down on the ILF?

[Lux Interior]

A good post there Davy. How did this go down on the ILF?

I recall Davy's post on the ILF ..... and, yes, it was very informative.

Ive no particular beef with what he wrote/writes - the IFA were then, as they are now, a gaggle of halfwits - however what he omits is (was) the increasingly hazardous journeys being made by supporters to the Brandywell as pandemonium ensued all around.

Davy'll ask for 'documentary proof' but my da, as a home and away regular from the fifties right up until now, recalls some 'hairy goings-on' outside the ground and Derry city itself that made it a 'no-go' area for away support. Ive had this confirmed by other, older Glens and indeed, some Bluemen.

The incident with the Ballymena supporters bus does not portray a friendly, welcoming place soundtracked by Dana's sickly Eurovision warblings either.

PS: 'Davros' - just lovvvvvvve reading your insightful, jaundiced posts. ****.

[lopez]

PS: 'Davros' - just lovvvvvvve reading your insightful, jaundiced posts. ****.

Another friend Davros has made across the political divide.

Whilst the Brandywell may not have been a great place to visit for other Northern teams, surely the same could be said for Windsor Park re nationalist fans. Leaving aside the Belfast Celtic incident which earned Linfield what? a two match ban from the ground, one of which was turned around to make what was a home game into an away game at Ballymena, there was the cup match in February 1955 against Derry. Here the visitors were winning 2-1 but lost 3-2 after a riot halted the game. Accusations arose that Linfield fans had assaulted Derry players but that the police refused to do anything to intervene. Also a woman was threatened with a knife in the enclosure. You'd think that after the Celtic incident it was time for the IFA to 'get tough' with Linfield. Not at all. The club were 'censured.' I'm led to believe they carried on in the competition even though they didn't win it.

So there we have it. One club has a visitors team coach set on fire; it is not certain if it was by their own fans ; no one is hurt but they to move 30 miles down the road. Another club firstly has a visitors team attacked resulting in one player having his leg deliberately broken. A few years later a match is almost abandoned, players are once more attacked, a visiting fan is attacked with a knife. On both occasions the clubs' fans were involved and the incidents took place inside their stadium. They however don't have to move anywhere and on both occasions get a slapped wrist with the origins of the second incident suggested to have started by one of the visiting players taking off his crucifix to put in his pocket.

I get the feeling that the description of the IFA as 'a gaggle of halfwits' is merely a ploy to disguise the fact that both they - certainly in the post '69 period - and the Irish League have acted in a sectarian manner towards nationalist clubs. Davy has given a number of examples to strengthen this argument. I've given here two more.

[Lux Interior]

Another friend Davros has made across the political divide.

Whilst the Brandywell may not have been a great place to visit for other Northern teams, surely the same could be said for Windsor Park re nationalist fans. Leaving aside the Belfast Celtic incident which earned Linfield what? a two match ban from the ground, one of which was turned around to make what was a home game into an away game at Ballymena, there was the cup match in February 1955 against Derry. Here the visitors were winning 2-1 but lost 3-2 after a riot halted the game. Accusations arose that Linfield fans had assaulted Derry players but that the police refused to do anything to intervene. Also a woman was threatened with a knife in the enclosure. You'd think that after the Celtic incident it was time for the IFA to 'get tough' with Linfield. Not at all. The club were 'censured.' I'm led to believe they carried on in the competition even though they didn't win it.

So there we have it. One club has a visitors team coach set on fire; it is not certain if it was by their own fans ; no one is hurt but they to move 30 miles down the road. Another club firstly has a visitors team attacked resulting in one player having his leg deliberately broken. A few years later a match is almost abandoned, players are once more attacked, a visiting fan is attacked with a knife. On both occasions the clubs' fans were involved and the incidents took place inside their stadium. They however don't have to move anywhere and on both occasions get a slapped wrist with the origins of the second incident suggested to have started by one of the visiting players taking off his crucifix to put in his pocket.

I get the feeling that the description of the IFA as 'a gaggle of halfwits' is merely a ploy to disguise the fact that both they - certainly in the post '69 period - and the Irish League have acted in a sectarian manner towards nationalist clubs. Davy has given a number of examples to strengthen this argument. I've given here two more.

Lopez, I am not one for defending the Irish League (or their equally incompetent bedfellows, the IFA) and the accusation of 'institutional sectarianism' is hard to refute, certainly with the recent refusals to admit DC (and to a lesser extent, Lurgan Celtic) into the Irish 1st Division. (although the 5000 rent-a-mob DC who turned up at Windsor Park in 1990 for a cup tie, may have influenced the IL's decisions).

The Jimmy Jomes/Celtic incident happened mid-season, yet Celtic withdrew themselves at the end of that season - a loss which, arguably, the local game has never really recovered. Going further back, Celtic themselves were involved in what is probably the worst incident involving crowd disorder. The 1920 Irish Cup semi replay saw Celtic fans invade the pitch (vs Glentoran) and one supporter firing shots into the Glentoran crowd. A three month ban followed but sure it was just a 'bit of craic' ..........

'Incidents' have been happening with alarming regularity throughout the history of organised football in Ireland/Northern Ireland and it's a cosy trap to fall into to paint 'nationalist clubs' as 'perpetual victims' ...............

............ Linfield always get the verdict

[lopez]

The Jimmy Jomes/Celtic incident happened mid-season, yet Celtic withdrew themselves at the end of that season - a loss which, arguably, the local game has never really recovered. Going further back, Celtic themselves were involved in what is probably the worst incident involving crowd disorder. The 1920 Irish Cup semi replay saw Celtic fans invade the pitch (vs Glentoran) and one supporter firing shots into the Glentoran crowd. A three month ban followed but sure it was just a 'bit of craic' ..........

No this sort of sh*t - where amongst others a thirteen year old gets shot in the leg - isn't a 'bit of craic' as you - along with the lobotomised half of the ourweeminds board like to regurgitate with monotony about nationalists - so quaintly put it. Even at this point in time this wasn't the first time that there had been shootings at Irish League games: The Linfield v. BC riot game of September 1912 and the rematch two months later are good examples: the second ended unsurprisingly in a 4-0 victory for Linfield, helped not at all by revolvers being emptied in the air 'El Guapo style' by their supporters.

I thought it was perhaps pointing out the obvious that it's not all right to burn your guests' coach and you should be punished for it. My concern was how the IFA/IL has handed out punishments in a very selective manner.

'Incidents' have been happening with alarming regularity throughout the history of organised football in Ireland/Northern Ireland and it's a cosy trap to fall into to paint 'nationalist clubs' as 'perpetual victims' ...............

............ Linfield always get the verdict

You're right about the last bit at least and the first. I'm just intrigued about the middle: This 'cosy trap' that we all fall into that 'nationalist clubs' are 'perpetual victims'. Perhaps you can give us a few examples of non-nationalist clubs getting a raw deal against a nationalist club off either the IFA or IL. I mean if it's all down to pure stupidity surely there must be plenty of cases you'd care to share with us.

[Duncan Gardner]

Such cynicism for one so young, Lopez. If you aren't prepared to take at face value that the IFA can't be trusted to run a bath (or see every criticism of them as actually a half-hearted justification for sectarianism), here's their recent CV

* U-21 team abolished, even though most of the village teams in UEFA can run one

* no team colours or other merchandise available through official outlets

* almost non-existent marketing exemplified by woeful web site of barely school project standard

* contracted away fixture in Jamaica cancelled by hosts without any argument (despite fans already booking to travel), indeed without any acknowledgement for a week after the news broke

* Glentoran in will we/ won't we have points deducted farce every season now it seems. Can it be so difficult to confirm the rule book, then publicise it to clubs, fans etc.?

As for Derry 1972/ Celtic 1948, see my soon to be published thesis on medieval history. Or further up the thread

[lopez]

Such cynicism for one so young, Lopez. If you aren't prepared to take at face value that the IFA can't be trusted to run a bath (or see every criticism of them as actually a half-hearted justification for sectarianism), here's their recent CV...

What's this got to do with the the period between 1946 and 1971? Sorry, but if the organisation is just plain incompetent then the odds must favour a decision going to either Derry or Celtic. Evidence of just one such incident during the post - war stormont years (aka. the golden years ) will do, thanks!

[Duncan Gardner]

Lopez. I've already accepted that the IFA/IL have been biased against nationalist teams in the past (further up this thread I think, and with particular reference to Derry City). I've also agreed Linfield were treated leniently in 1948 though I don't read as much into this as you do.

I don't think they are any longer. Though the admision of Lurgan and Donegal Celtics was delayed longer than I'd have liked (playing record should be the only consideration), alas in NI you have to take Police advice on this sort of thing rather more than in Berkhamsted, or wherever.

In recent years we have also seen the return of Linfield to play matches at Solitude which shows some progress is being made.

Although I broadly agree with Lux I wouldn't express it in quite the same way (unless trying to wind you up obviously ). Not every incident in NI football has a sectarian source.

[lopez]

Lopez. I've already accepted that the IFA/IL have been biased against nationalist teams in the past (further up this thread I think, and with particular reference to Derry City). I've also agreed Linfield were treated leniently in 1948 though I don't read as much into this as you do. .

Then there is no disagreement. As I've said before on this thread, I believe that despite this the IFA have at least bucked the trend re discrimination in the stormont years: namely in selection of players and in the election of officials when unionist MPs were calling on Loyal Ulstermen to employ noone but Loyal protestants and were quite proud in stating this. And also discrimination is not a Protestant preserve: eg. Newry UDC post partition.

I don't think they are any longer. Though the admision of Lurgan and Donegal Celtics was delayed longer than I'd have liked (playing record should be the only consideration), alas in NI you have to take Police advice on this sort of thing rather more than in Berkhamsted, or wherever.

I'll take your word for it. BTW, I don't live in Berkhamsted. I'm not that f*cking rich, nor that cultured!

Although I broadly agree with Lux I wouldn't express it in quite the same way (unless trying to wind you up obviously ). Not every incident in NI football has a sectarian source.

I think you differ. You are willing to admit there is some discrimination. Lux likes to see any attempt at pointing to discrimination as a 'cosy trap.' Pssssssst! You don't suppose Lux is a reincarnation of the army groupie? Saw him using the 'only a bit o' craic' line yet again on ourweeminds yesterday. Seems to be a favourite of his.

[lopez]

' LI' too restrained to be 'AG'?!

I have to agree with that one. Speaks much more sense too!