derry & Cliftonville

**liam88** · 20/10/2003, 6:03 PM

Do you think Belfast Celtic should reform?
Or arn't you really bothered?
Would they fit in today?-they were an AMAZING club in their time but in a way you could say football has developed a lot since then, would the principals and the support still be there now that a shopping center stands above where 'paradise' used to stand?
I for one would like to see it, especially to see someone give L*nfield a stuffing four times a season

**Paddy Ramone** · 20/10/2003, 6:15 PM

Would they play in the Irish League or League of Ireland? They'd also have to compete with Cliftonville for the Nationalist and Catholic support in Belfast. Although many of the Catholics in West Belfast consider Cliftonville a North Belfast club and want their own side again.

**liam88** · 20/10/2003, 6:43 PM

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Would they play in the Irish League or League of Ireland?

Probably the Leagye of Ireland, return to the old hunting ground. Something to spice up the league would be very nice

They'd also have to compete with Cliftonville for the Nationalist and Catholic support in Belfast.
Although many of the Catholics in West Belfast consider Cliftonville a North Belfast club and want their own side again.

Mabye a merger like ICT in Scotland, it would solve any finance problems for both teams and unite Catholics throughout Belfast. They could even form once the peace deal goes through (hopefully very soon) and that would be great. 'Cliftonville Celtic'....like the sound?

**Paddy Ramone** · 20/10/2003, 6:57 PM

I don't know about a merger. Cliftonville have a proud tradition as the oldest Irish football club.

They have a very different history to Belfast Celtic. The Reds were originally a mainly Protestant amateur club up until the 1970's. It was only demographic changes during the troubles that changed this.

I don't think Cliftonville would like to lose their identity in a merged club.

Wallace Mercer had the same idea in Edinburgh for Hibs and Hearts but it wasn't accepted by the fans. Some of the Inverness Caledonian Thistle fans would prefer to have seperate teams as well.

**gspain** · 21/10/2003, 8:19 AM

Cliftonville are a north Belfast side as has been stated.

West Belfast does have a side in the top flight - Linfield.

Maybe their MP should go to a few games and meet his constituents.

Belfast Celtic were not a sectarian club. They had players of all religions playing for them as indeed did rivals Linfield at the time. Celtic went out in 1949 and Linfield only appeared to stop signing Catholics after that or around that time. They have of course signed plenty of Catholics since 1988.

Celtic are still members of the Irish League and could reform although Celtic Park is now the Park Shopping Centre (a short walk across the M1 now from windsor Park).

While it is easy to attach sectarian labels to clubs in Northern Ireland remember football is by and large non sectarian and played by both communities and clubs and the national team are open to all. Indeed the rivalries in football in Northern Ireland have nothing to do with religion eg Linfield v Glentoran, Portadown v Glenavon, Ards v Bangor etc and more to do with local pride. Linfield fans would always cheer for example if Cliftonville were beating Glentoran.

West Belfast does have Donegal Celtic playing in the first division of the Irish League now. Limerick are still the only club from the RoI to have played there. It would be great to see them do well and get into the premier division. They did try and join the LoI on a couple of occasions but were not welcomed with open arms. they now have the opportunity to play senior football in the Irish League.

**Paddy Ramone** · 21/10/2003, 8:34 AM

It would be great to see Belfast Celtic playing Irish League football again and a renewal of their old rivalry with Linfield. Maybe now that there is a peace process in the North, Celtic might take up their rightful place as an Irish League club.

**Duncan Gardner** · 21/10/2003, 6:17 PM

I hope you're not suggesting the team that took their place be kicked out Paddy

Adding to G Spain's post, (Lisburn) Distillery are also from West Belfast- their ground was near the present Westlink.

Both Lurgan and Donegall Celtics are prepared to play in the IL. Of course, both have some silly fans, just like everyone else. Last season, a LC fan shinned up the flagpole at Seaview and pinched the Jack. The locals weren't pleased but no serious harm came of it...

pbn · 22/10/2003, 1:02 PM

Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?

pbn · 22/10/2003, 1:07 PM

Sorry folks. Ive fecked up. this post was meant to be in the Belfast Celtic Thread

pbn · 22/10/2003, 1:08 PM

Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?

**lopez** · 22/10/2003, 2:07 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
I hope you're not suggesting the team that took their place be kicked out Paddy

Yeah, the mighty Crusaders! They've got to be a Catholic team with a name like that, DG.

May as well call them Notre Dame.

Originally posted by pbn
Why arn't Cliftonville in the LOI for the same reasons Derry City are?

Does anyone know why?

Cliftonville are a Protestant club with a large Catholic following - bit like Liverpool and Everton if you believe some people. So they were allowed to stay.

Seriously, I think the Brandywell being in Free Derry made it impossible to play there (a burnt out bus of the Ballymena team seemed to bring things to a head). They moved to Coleraine, which was bad enough in itself if you've ever been to the town, but they found that the locals were more into marching.

Financially, they were ****ed.

**Duncan Gardner** · 22/10/2003, 2:17 PM

Originally posted by lopez
Yeah, the mighty Crusaders! They've got to be a Catholic team with a name like that, DG.

Back in 1898, that name was chosen becauseof its international image. The less-favoured alternative was 'Lilliputians' (Lilliput Street being nearby)

Cliftonville are a Protestant club with a large Catholic following

Actually, they have both nationalist and unionist fans (the latter predominantly older), but few of either even by IL standards. Portadown and Ballymena get bigger crowds. The Reds have never made any attempt to leave the IL- no point, they'd take no fans with them.

Seriously, I think the Brandywell being in Free Derry made it impossible to play there (a burnt out bus of the Ballymena team seemed to bring things to a head).

No. The Belfast unionist teams could have faced exactly the same charge- that their grounds were in flashpoint areas. Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

**Plastic Paddy** · 22/10/2003, 2:26 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

Indeed, especially when you consider that the IL Premier Division now contains the Institute team from Drumahoe (in the eastern "suburbs" of Stroke City), the First Division Ballinamallard United from co. Fermanagh and the IL Second Division Dergview from Castlederg, spitting distance from co. Donegal.

Ah well, changed times. Hopefully for the better.

PP

**Paddy Ramone** · 22/10/2003, 3:02 PM

Originally posted by lopez
They moved to Coleraine, which was bad enough in itself if you've ever been to the town, but they found that the locals were more into marching.

I think it's ironic that Coleraine's most famous player ever was a Celtic player Bertie Peacock. Peacock is a Protestant and some say an Orangeman, yet saw no problem wearing the famous hoops. I wonder are there many Celtic supporting Orangeman in Coleraine.

Does Duncan know?

**pete** · 22/10/2003, 3:38 PM

Derry City are the exception & I don't know why the eL would need a small Belfast team to join them.

**lopez** · 22/10/2003, 4:53 PM

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
Unbelievable though it may sound, that DC was 75 miles away- rather than the politics of its support- was possibly the major consideration for Linfield, Glentoran etc. THe whole episode reflects very badly on the rest of the IL.

But they didn't mind visiting Coleraine? Reading between the lines DG, you say it was discrimination one minute then try to throw the red herring in that it was because the team played in the back of beyond that sunk its involvement in the Irish League when a club from a unionist town (that was why the University of Ulster was built there and not Derry) not much nearer continued to play without qualms.

While not condoning the IL, you'd hardly expect them to fight on two fronts. That is making Unionist clubs play their games away aswell if they happened to be located in a dodgy area.

**Duncan Gardner** · 22/10/2003, 5:40 PM

Derry is half as far again from Belfast as Coleraine is.

Aye, rereading that I'm exaggerating geographical distance as a factor, though it was present. Rather like Ferranti Thistle getting into the Scottish League instead of a higher-grade Highland club.

I'm not sure the siting of the New University is as illustrative of unionist bigotry as you suggest . Not as if we lack other examples, eh? If easy access for the likely student body was the main consideration, Armagh would have been a better choice small town than Coleraine. But of course, once all the constituent parts of NUU merged in the 1980s, the Belfast campuses attracted the majority of students, as you'd expect.

Derry in the 1960s was a small town and in pure economic terms not much more 'deserving' of a university than Coleraine.

[retires...

]

**liam88** · 27/10/2003, 9:42 PM

Belfast Celtic would still be playing if it wasn't for L*nfield. 5 of the men attacked that they were unionists-does this reflect on the ignorance of the fans?

Why are they still playing after such an outrage?