Bohs Court Case

[galwayhoop]

We won't know unless Dalymount is auctioned off now, will we.

Big auction. A reporter from the herald, the bohs board, you and a fook load of tumble weed….

As for the worth of Dayler - it was worth 65M at the time of the deal - at the moment it would still be worth over 40M & I'd expect that value to bounce back up to 50M quite soon after the property market stabilises.

not going to stabilize any time soon. No money around and less demand

As for that - the property market has just been through a 6-months of nothing - basically no sales, but it is now coming out the other end - sales have just resumed (in the last 3 weeks!) at both ends of the scale - ie I know of a <3M house closing and numerous >500k closing in the past weeks (none of which were moving 3 months ago). There will be another 3-4 weeks of quiet movement before Xmas & sales should resume reasonably in late Feb. (Ive been through a few of these property booms & busts & they all follow a fairly predictable pattern). Expect prices to increase in 2009 by 4%+ (could be up to 6% I think)

far from the property market bouncing into positive figures after a soft six months expect 3, 4 or 5 years of a lack of activity (at least).

Off topic - Wait for the massacre of people in retail and service industry after Christmas and then we'll start talking about recovery.

On Topic - Dalymount without the Connaught Street access and with the economic downturn is worth an enormous amount less than what it was when the deal was done with Carroll.

Agreed
Agreed

Overall Nationwide Industries –
Construction: Dead, Dead, Dead
Production: Dead
Retail: Dying
Service: Following
Agriculture: Agri-watttt???

Globally:
Credit at a premium, no-one lending. No faith in Irish markets, failing global economy, share prices worldwide effectively wiped

Property:
Reliant on all the above being solid, along with supply being inferior to demand. Secondary retail/residential property markets are absolutely non-existant. Hard to see Dalymount (even with access) being worth anything near 20m to 30m for next 5 to 10 years.

For those of ye waiting for the recovery lads wrap up warm, get plenty of canned foods and get ready for the long haul……

[Dalymountrower]

As per Galway Hoop

Overall Nationwide Industries –
Construction: Dead, Dead, Dead
Production: Dead
Retail: Dying
Service: Following
Agriculture: Agri-watttt???

Globally:
Credit at a premium, no-one lending. No faith in Irish markets, failing global economy, share prices worldwide effectively wiped

Property:
Reliant on all the above being solid, along with supply being inferior to demand. Secondary retail/residential property markets are absolutely non-existant. Hard to see Dalymount (even with access) being worth anything near 20m to 30m for next 5 to 10 years


Ease up on the tap water over there would you?

[dcfcsteve]

Originally Posted by geysir
"The judge said he had come to the view that Albion are entitled to an interest in the land involved because there was 'clear evidence of repeated promises etc"

Did the judge define the extent of the interest or is that left for another day in court?

The land sectioning was fairly complicated. The crux of it is that Albion are the beneficial owners of the land that was under dispute.

The reason for the use of the term "trust" is because Bohs are effectively the legal owners but they no longer have any beneficial interest in it.

I'll try post a copy of the judgment up on Monday.

I don't know land law in Ireland, but I suspect it's based on the British model (as the basis of most Irish law is).

Under English Law - a beneficial interest only becomes a legally acknowledgebale interest when it is registered : i.e. when it is annotated to the title documents.

If such a beneficial interest was added to the deeds of Dalymount, my question would be - how did Danninger not pick up on it ?

If the beneficial interest wasn't registered - then if Irish law is the same as English law, then it's tough titties and it doesn't have any legal force.

So - does anyone know if Albion's interest was registered or not ?

Finally - as residents, tenants and users of the section under diispute, Bohs do have a beneficial interest in the land. Their interest is subservient to Albion if they sold the land and it was registered as such, but they still retain some interest in it (e.g. if it was Compulsorily Purchased, they'd get a degree of compensation as residnets/'tenants', just like the owners would).

[Longfordian]

Deeds of Transfer usually transfer the legal and beneficial ownership of the land. If you bought solely the legal interest your name would be on the deeds but you wouldn't be able to use the land in any way as you wouldn't own the beneficial interest. I'd assume Dalymount is unregistered title as well so registration is no guarantee of proper title.

[gufct]

Im involved in the legal & Property Business and the last month is the worst ive seen in 28 years. Land Values have plummeted far worse than House prices in most cases by at least 50%.

Bohs havent a hope of seeing €45m from anyone let alone Liam Carroll so if the banks call in their overdraft and Carroll pulls out and looks for his upfront money back Bohs are looking at a firesale.

[dcfcsteve]

Deeds of Transfer usually transfer the legal and beneficial ownership of the land. If you bought solely the legal interest your name would be on the deeds but you wouldn't be able to use the land in any way as you wouldn't own the beneficial interest. I'd assume Dalymount is unregistered title as well so registration is no guarantee of proper title.

Three points though :

1) If you're sugesting there's no title registered at all for Dalymount, then Albion should've pushed the club to have BFC's ownership legally confirmed/clarified in one, and then had their name added to it as having an interest in a section of the site. Bad business by Albion ?

2) If a title does exist, then Albion should've got themselves registered on it. If they didn't - is their interest legally recognised ? Bad business by Albion ?

3) If a title exists and Albion's interest was listed on it, why did Danninger not pick up on it and foresee these problems ? Bad business by Danninger ?

[charliesboots]

Three points though :

1) If you're sugesting there's no title registered at all for Dalymount, then Albion should've pushed the club to have BFC's ownership legally confirmed/clarified in one, and then had their name added to it as having an interest in a section of the site. Bad business by Albion ?

2) If a title does exist, then Albion should've got themselves registered on it. If they didn't - is their interest legally recognised ? Bad business by Albion ?

3) If a title exists and Albion's interest was listed on it, why did Danninger not pick up on it and foresee these problems ? Bad business by Danninger ?

Your jumping ahead (or behind!) yourself Steve. Albion had no beneficial interest to register until the judgment last week. That's what the whole case was about.

Directions from the Court as to how to proceed will likely be included in the order next week.

[Longfordian]

1) There is a legal title. By "unregistered" I mean it's registered in the Registry of Deeds as opposed to the Land Registry. The Registry Of Deeds does not investigate title while the Land Registry does.

2) Albion's is an equitable interest, equitable interest are recognised by the Courts. They do not necessarily have to be on the title deeds. For security they usually would have them noted on the deeds but it's not a pre-requisite.

3) Albion's interest wasn't listed on the deeds but Danninger are protected as a "bona fide purchaser for value" and so would have recourse against Bohs in this situation. They couldn't lose out really.

[charliesboots]

1) There is a legal title. By "unregistered" I mean it's registered in the Registry of Deeds as opposed to the Land Registry. The Registry Of Deeds does not investigate title while the Land Registry does.

2) Albion's is an equitable interest, equitable interest are recognised by the Courts. They do not necessarily have to be on the title deeds. For security they usually would have them noted on the deeds but it's not a pre-requisite.

3) Albion's interest wasn't listed on the deeds but Danninger are protected as a "bona fide purchaser for value" and so would have recourse against Bohs in this situation. They couldn't lose out really.

Spot on - particularly with point 3.

If Carroll wants to walk he can unless Bohs do a deal with Albion to secure all the land that Carroll wants.

Unlikely Conroy will do that after all the sh!t that went on.

[A face]

Any more updates on this?

[Scrufil]

I don't know land law in Ireland, but I suspect it's based on the British model (as the basis of most Irish law is).

Under English Law - a beneficial interest only becomes a legally acknowledgebale interest when it is registered : i.e. when it is annotated to the title documents.

It should also be noted that the Law in Northern Ireland differs from that of the Law in England. I have a brother who is a barrister in England and he could not practise in the North due to the differences. In the rest of Ireland Law is not an exact science and tends to differ from time to time. The Bohemians case is not an open and shut one. Sometimes it just boils down to the judge and how well a case is pleaded.

[charliesboots]

I've just noticed that Bohs appeal to the Supreme Court in this appears to have been settled back in March. Generally the terms of any settlement are confidential - I'm still surprised it wasn't reported anywhere unless I missed it.

[de bowez]

I've just noticed that Bohs appeal to the Supreme Court in this appears to have been settled back in March. Generally the terms of any settlement are confidential - I'm still surprised it wasn't reported anywhere unless I missed it.

Danninger are free to complete their side of the deal (lol) if they dont Albion have first option to buy.