Irish in England

[lopez]

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
I went to the website you mentioned above, and apart from it being in need of updating, it's written with a great sense of humour and is very entertaining. I've now also seen the famous "Dublin Loyal" flag. More power to them all, so long as they're content with second place in perpetuity.

Follow Follow in Irish? You couldn't make it up!

BTW, did you ever much relations with those lovely girls on the hill from the Royal Masonic School of Nymphomaniacs?

[Éanna]

I've been observing but have resisted the urge to post up to now. This whole thing of "irishness" is a bit of a red herring as far as i'm concerned. Most people who are born in Ireland would consider themselves Irish, but there are people born in plenty of other places who are entitled to call themselves Irish too. For me, Irishness can be defined as someone knowing what it is to be Irish. its not about having a wolfe tones cd or a celtic jersey, its about not feeling out of place when you're among other Irish people. Take the Ireland team now- Kevin Kilbane was born in England, yet he lines up in Landsdowne, sings the anthem and gives 100%. Clinton Morrison on the other hand makes pathetic and lame gags about drinking guinness.

As for the whole Celtic thing- I consider myself a Celtic fan, insofar as I look out for their results. This is because i am a big fan of Martin O'Neill not because I think I'm showing solidarity with knuckle dragging neanderthals who drag this country's reputation thru the mud. What I would say is that there's no problem being a Celtic fan if its for the right reason- i.e. Anything other than the emabrassingly childish "cos they're Irish. What are you? A ****in hun?" proferred by barstoolers up and down the country. I have no objection to any real football fan supporting any team, be it rangers, celtic, bARSElona, man utd, linfield- whoever. The people I object to are the people who hijack a club for other purposes and think they have the right to strut around having a go off others over who they support. Real football fans respect each other and respect people's right to support whoever they want.

[Éanna]

that would be appalling reason to support the greatest team in the world

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by lopez
did you ever much relations with those lovely girls on the hill from the Royal Masonic School of Nymphomaniacs?

Noooooo... us proles were beneath them. Not in a literal sense, you understand. I confined my "relations" with the opposite sex to the more socially-acceptable/available (all right then, available!) alternatives at my own school and the one at the top of Scots Hill.

I did often wonder as a yoof what sort of devilish practices those Masonic women might entertain though...

PP

[lopez]

Originally posted by Éanna
For me, Irishness can be defined as someone knowing what it is to be Irish. its not about having a wolfe tones cd or a celtic jersey, its about not feeling out of place when you're among other Irish people.

What about 'Irish' people not feeling that we are out of place amongst them?

Originally posted by Conor74
What about supporting a team for purely fascist reasons or because you agree with the atrocities committed by General Franco and the German Condor Legion at Guernica...

Uh, oh. Now we are bringing in la guerra civil. Speaking as an impartial deportista, when it comes to gimmicks and a persecution complex, Barstardolona could teach Celtic a few things.

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
Noooooo... us proles were beneath them...I did often wonder as a yoof what sort of devilish practices those Masonic women might entertain though...

An ex pupil - daughter of a well known pie maker (not Mr. Kipling) - married a relative of the wife. Space cadet. Got divorced. Last heard she was helping out the Colombian economy by shifting some of its number one export through her nose.

[nlgbbbblth]

Originally posted by Plastic Paddy
I agree, and no inference was drawn about the correlation between Chris's religion, the club he followed, and certainly not about anything else like politics. I know plenty of Tims who profess no religion and plenty more from Protestant and Dissenter traditions; for these bhoys and ghirls, just as for myself, it's all about the football. As it should be.

PP

that's all fine and good Paddy
but in the pub last night some friends of mine who were shouting for Rangers against Utd were called "Protestant *******s" by a group of Celtic-shirted men.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
that's all fine and good Paddy
but in the pub last night some friends of mine who were shouting for Rangers against Utd were called "Protestant *******s" by a group of Celtic-shirted men.

Kenny Dalglish, Danny McGrain, Murdo MacLeod, Bertie Peacock, John Thomson, Bobby Collins, Bertie Auld, Willie Wallace, Ronnie Simpson, Tommy Gemmell and of course Jock Stein were all "Protestant *******s" too. And some of them were Rangers fans. Celtic are a proud non-sectarian club or so some people say.

[nlgbbbblth]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Kenny Dalglish, Danny McGrain, Murdo MacLeod, Bertie Peacock, John Thomson, Bobby Collins, Bertie Auld, Willie Wallace, Ronnie Simpson, Tommy Gemmell and of course Jock Stein were all "Protestant *******s" too. And some of them were Rangers fans. Celtic are a proud non-sectarian club or so some people say.

I know all that

but their neanderthal Irish supporters like the ones from last night are all too common

and get this for stupidity - a young lad at work who "supports" Man Utd and Celtic - didn't know about Ferguson's connection with Rangers until this week - and now since he heard that Ferguson once played for Rangers - has decided to stop following Man Utd.

he also agrees with the booing of Rangers players in Lansdowne and thinks anyone who doesn't like Celtic is "not really an Irishman"

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth
that's all fine and good Paddy
but in the pub last night some friends of mine who were shouting for Rangers against Utd were called "Protestant *******s" by a group of Celtic-shirted men.

As a Celtic fan, that's not something I'm proud of. There's plenty of nastiness and bile, much of which is sectarian and racist, exchanged between "supporters" of both teams. However, I must again state that we really aren't all like that.

I watched an interesting interview with a senior Black police officer on television here in London last night. He made the point that anyone coming across racist/sectarian acts of hatred who subsequently fail to confront the perpetrators are in effect condoning their actions. I understand the potential effects of adopting such a policy (having once myself been turned on when trying to do something similar), but if only more people would or could tackle such occurrences head-on, they'd subside in number and in time.

I don't want my kids growing up in a society where people are persecuted for their skin colour, culture, beliefs or even the football team they follow. Call me an idealist, but the alternative is resignation and acceptance, and that just won't do.

PP

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by nlgbbbblth

he also agrees with the booing of Rangers players in Lansdowne and thinks anyone who doesn't like Celtic is "not really an Irishman"

Extreme GAA fans who supported the ban once made the argument that certain "foreign games" weren't truly Irish. By that Celtic fan's logic those GAA people weren't truly Irish either because supporters of the GAA ban were unlikely to be supporting a team playing the foreign game. And could he be a true patriotic Irishman, supporting a foreign game. Is anybody really an Irishman?

[lopez]

This is at the core of what I personally dislike about Celtic. This minority - the size of which is hard to say - that sees its rival fans in purely religious terms. I think I mentioned on another thread about the Celtic 'fan' on a train between probably Germany's two most Catholic cities (Stuttgart and Munich) who spotted a bloke with a football shirt from Germany's major Catholic city (Bayern Munich) and declared in his presence: 'I smell a Prod.' Perhaps nlgbbbblth, your workmate will grow out of this stupidity, but for me, I've had a bellyful of it at my age.

But hey, just when you think that it's all Celtic, you get a wake up call. In work this morning and my Rangers supporting boss (someone I've always liked) starts complaining about his relief (bloke from Coleraine) who just happens to be Man U. Now I personally couldn't give un pajo de mono who the cono won last night, but this bloke asks me, straight faced and knowing my background: 'How can a Prod support that team (Man U)?'

[S.E.P.1990]

'I smell a Prod.' Perhaps nlgbbbblth, your workmate will grow out of this stupidity, but for me, I've had a bellyful of it at my age.

'How can a Prod support that team (Man U)?'

Now i am just getting damn confused!!! I mean i am no fan of the team from the Theatre of Nighmares but this one is going to far!!!

As for the barstool brigade, they r just too funny. When I first came to Ireland I went into a pub and Celtic v Rangers where on the t.v. so i settled in to watch it. within 5 mins i was just amazed by the abuse shouted at the t.v. I must point out that i was a newly arrived 11 year old who wouldnt have been the same religion as the men shouting the abuse - it was quite an eye opener. Now i am sure that if i went into a Rangers bar I would have felt the exact same way about the abuse being shouted.

The problem is the Celtic barstool brigade in Ireland are quite dangerous. If u remember the man on the Prime Time special on RTE a couple of weeks ago who said that he didnt hate Protestants as long as they kept their head down but he did hate Rangers fans - he is not an exception. I have a number of Celtic supporting mates in Glasgow who are just amazed and appalled when they come to Ireland and hear the comments of fellow Celtic fans.

(end of rant...... apologies for length!)

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by lopez
'How can a Prod support that team (Man U)?' [/B]

There's always been a strong Catholic connection at Man U though. They considered calling themselves Manchester Celtic before settling on their present name which was suggested by their Italian Catholic groundsman Louis Rocca.

Rocca was known as the "Father of United" and used a network of Catholic priests across England to scout for players. All their managers since 1945 have been Catholic (Busby, McGuinness, O'Farrell, Docherty and Sexton) except the last two, Fergusson and Atkinson.

Up to very recently they had a Catholic chaplain. Also Paul Scholes, Ryan Giggs, Neville brothers and Darren Fletcher in the current side all come from Catholic backgrounds. Having said that, there are probably more Catholics playing for Rangers than United at the moment.

Also United have strong Ulster Protestant connections if you take into account George Best, Sammy McIlroy, Harry Gregg,Jimmy Nicholl, Norman Whiteside and few more others. I've also heard it argued that Man Utd are a Protestant Loyalist club.

[Plastic Paddy]

Originally posted by lopez
I joined [the Underground] 20 years this friday

Happy anniversary, and - as I see from the homepage - happy birthday!

One final thought... twenty years with LUL... people serve less time for first degree murder!

PP

[lopez]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
There's always been a strong Catholic connection at Man U though.

Your information is intriguing. I don't know much about the origins of the club, apart from Newton Heath either being its former carnation or one of the parties that 'united' the side.

Thing is there is an assumption that certain clubs in England are Catholic and Protestant, which doesn't actually exist. My first visit to Old Trafford was in 1984 for a Celtic game (Lou Macari's testimonial), and there were plenty of Rangers fans out that day spoiling for a fight. Then try telling Kevin Kennedy or the Gallagher Brothers that they're following the wrong team. However, Man U has had a more than passing flirtation with RCs (including English ones such as Dave Sexton) and there was a RUMOUR in the early eighties, UNSUBSTANTIATED ANYWHERE ELSE, so lawyers watching please calm down, that two Irish players (one from the North, another from the South) had a training pitch bust up over the hunger strike of 1981, which apparently led to the former leaving the club.

In Liverpool there is LFC (Protestant) and Everton (RC)...or is it the other way round? Yet the support of both clubs is mixed. I don't follow English club football, but in London I know that the perception that Arsenal are Paddies, Chelsea are Huns, and Spurs are Yids, is cojones. Out in Croatia in 1999 a local was talking to me and some mates and suggested that Arsenal were the RC team in London with Chelsea the Prods. There wasn't an Arsenal supporter amongst us but there was one Chelsea fan. That day I went to OT, I went up with a load of 2G Chelsea fans; The few Jews I've known have all supported Arsenal; and I've seen a number of fascists at White Hart Lane.

PP, thanks mate. Even Winston Silcott went inside after me and came out before!

[Duncan Gardner]

Some quality sidestepping of the libel laws there by the lad Davros

[lopez]

Dav: My own 'deep throat' said otherwise. I've heard the story about Dave McCreery -who is the player I presume your talking about - from the Ziggy Pop lookalike we all love. Apparently he had a paramilitary brother, but otherwise got on well with papists and 'Mexicans.'

DG: You're right about libel. The story was a rumour so excuse the landmine avoiding. One player became manager of NI. The other played to a high standard in another sport before turning to the garrison game - he also went to your alma mater. Does this help?

[Duncan Gardner]

So glad it wasn't the other one- my cousin's wife's aunt is married to one of their uncles, I think.

So- which hairy-arsed GAAster went to Methodist College then?

[lopez]

Originally posted by Duncan Gardner
So- which hairy-arsed GAAster went to Methodist College then?

I was thinking more Dublin University.