Irish in England

[Plastic Paddy]

While we're in to correcting factual inaccuracies, I'd like to point out that the reference in Conor's article,

This was a time when Rangers and Celtic were far more seperated than they are even now, with both only buying protestant or catholic players respectively

is wrong. Whilst Rangers eschewed signing Catholic players because of their religion right up until the time of Graeme Souness in the late 1980s, Celtic have always had an open policy in this regard. Nowhere was this exemplified better than in the 1967 European Cup-winning side, where the team manager and five of the side were Protestant. Indeed, Brother Walfrid (the club's founder) called the club "The Celtic Football and Athletic Club" rather than "The Irish..." because he wanted the club to be as inclusive as possible in assisting all of Glasgow's poor.

There. Speaking as a Celtic fan, even I understand some of the Celtic-knocking that goes on hereabouts (see BanagherOK's comments elsewhere on this board to see why). However, the facts need to be made clear, and this particular faux pas is one of the great mistakes generally made regarding Celtic's signing policy.

PP

[Greenbod]

Correct Paddy. As Jock Stein once said, Celtic will always have an advantage so long as Rangers keep this sectarian policy. Jock could have the pick of Glasgow's young footballers, whereas Rangers restricted themselves to 50% of the population.

[S.E.P.1990]

Conor,

many thanks for the article, most of which I knew apart from the Orange Order links. I knew McKenna was a Northern Irish protestant and as it was the late 19th/early 20th century should have put two and two together!!!!

Houlding, or 'King John' as he was known, was one of ...McKenna soon forged a friendship with the equally
strong willed Houlding, and was invited to watch Houlding's
team Everton play at Anfield

Along with the point made by Paddy Ramone, surely if Houlding was involved originally with Everton (until the dispute over rent) and they were formed by Methodists then there is, in fact, no sectarian divide but merely a choice about which team u like the best????

Anyhow, to get back to the original point u were making (and apologising for the diversion along the merry road) I agree that Liverpool, Man Utd etc have done far more in a footballing sense(which is the only sense that counts!!) for Ireland than Celtic ever have. Can anyone name a League of Ireland player who was signed by Celtic?

Jim Beglin, Ronnie Whelan, Mark Lawrenson, John Aldridge, Ray Houghton, Steve Heighway, Steve Finnan all spring instantly to mind just off the top of my head.

Man Utd - McGrath, Keane, Moran, Whiteside, Best, Stapleton, O'Shea

Celtic - Bonner, Chris Morris, Cascarino, McCarthy

If we look at the list

[Paddy Ramone]

Sean Fallon who signed for Celtic in the 1950's played League of Ireland football for Sligo Rovers.

About Celtic signing only Catholic players, while in theory Celtic have always been open to Protestants, isn't true that the first few seasons of Celtic's existence, the club was almost entirely Catholic. In the very first match Celtic played in 1888 aginst Rangers the entire side were Catholic. Also traditionally Celtic usually have more Catholic players than non-Cahtolics. The first non-Catholic member of the board of directors at Celtic was only appointed in recent years when Ian MacLeod was given a place on the board.

[lopez]

Originally posted by liam88
excellent-Great to see i'm being accepted
The way I see it is you're nationality is respect for you're fellow countrymen, respect for the flag, respect for the country.
I have all of these plus an Irish accent

Born in England with an Irish accent? Are you a Plastic 'Plastic Paddy'?

Welcome aboard liam. As you see you're amongst friends.

Regarding the Liverpool/ Everton sectarian divide, I think that people are looking into too much here. It's like if we started saying that in London we have Arsenal / Chelsea or some other pointless conbination. Load of cojones: There are just as many Paddies - 'athenticos/ plasticos' - that support Liverpool as Everton.

Anyway, I always thought Everton was founded by some followers of John Wesley. (see link below)

http://www.toffeeweb.com/history/concise/1878-1888.asp

And with their animosity towards the devil's buttermilk, it's hardly the sort of club the Irish would normally join.

[Paddy Ramone]

[i]Originally posted by lopez [/]

Anyway, I always thought Everton was founded by some followers of John Wesley. (see link below)

http://www.toffeeweb.com/history/concise/1878-1888.asp

And with their animosity towards the devil's buttermilk, it's hardly the sort of club the Irish would normally join. [/B]

The Orangeman who founded Liverpool, John Houlding was a brewery owner. According to a history of Liverpool, I read that was one of the factors that lead to the falling out with the other members of the Everton board and the founding of Liverpool FC.

[lopez]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
The Orangeman who founded Liverpool, John Houlding was a brewery owner. According to a history of Liverpool, I read that was one of the factors that lead to the falling out with the other members of the Everton board and the founding of Liverpool FC.

You can take the Irishman out of Ireland but you can't take the Ireland out of the Irishman...even if he's a methodist, or an orangeman, or both.

[Macy]

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Man Utd - McGrath, Keane, Moran, Whiteside, Best, Stapleton, O'Shea

Irwin, Cantwell, Carey, Blanchflower, Gregg, McIlroy, Nicholl, Giles, Dunphy, Brennan....

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by lopez
Born in England with an Irish accent? Are you a Plastic 'Plastic Paddy'?
Anyway, I always thought Everton was founded by some followers of John Wesley. (see link below)

http://www.toffeeweb.com/history/concise/1878-1888.asp

And with their animosity towards the devil's buttermilk, it's hardly the sort of club the Irish would normally join.

When Hibernian were founded in 1875 by the Irish Catholics in Edinburgh, all their players had to pledge that they would abstain from alcohol. Hibs were the first football team to be founded and run by the Irish ever. Although this rule was get rid of in the 1890's. Hibernian are now sponsored by Carlsberg!

[liam88]

Originally posted by lopez
Born in England with an Irish accent? Are you a Plastic 'Plastic Paddy'?

I'm not into this whole 'Plastic Paddy' label so it's nice to see most of you respecting me for who I am I could have just as easily told you I live in Cork and you would have accepted me so don't think of me as any less Irish because I live in England-it's where you're loyalties lie and mine are firmly in Ireland.
Might be hard for some of you to treat me as Irish and I fully repect that because living all your life in Ireland you may easily view me as less Irish than you but PLEASE don't write any of us off as 'Plastic'.
When I take abuse in the streets for wearing my Irish shirt and have my tri-colour ripped off the roof of my house by racists during the world cup it's nice to come and and be amongst friends as you pointed out so thank you.
Regarding the Irish accent, you learn how to speak from your parents in your first year or so don't you so if your parents have an accent..........natural ain't it

[John83]

Originally posted by liam88
I could have just as easily told you I live in Cork and you would have accepted me so don't think of me as any less Irish because I live in England...

Actually, if you'd told us you were from Cork, we'd would have had a few more reservations about you

[lopez]

Originally posted by liam88
Regarding the Irish accent, you learn how to speak from your parents in your first year or so don't you so if your parents have an accent..........natural ain't it

La verdad hombre. That's why my posts are scattered with Spanish profanities.

As for Man Ure, thanx lads, I now know where I was going wrong. Should be supporting Ireland's most popular club.

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by Conor74
Celtic's record with Irish players is pretty terrible actually. Let's see, before (the still uncapped) Miller there was Tony Cascarino, Mick McCarthy and Pearce O'Leary. Oh, and Packie. Most English clubs have much better traditions. In recent years, Leeds have had up to five Irish players in squads, and clubs like Manchester United and Liverpool (for all their orange associations) have had even prouder traditions. Think players like Keane/ Irwin/ Moran/ McGrath/ Stapleton/Daly and a host of others at Old Trafford. That, more than anything, always makes me wonder if Celtic are really proud of their Irish connection or if, as I think, it's one hilarious marketing ploy to flog merchandise around the world. Ooops, sorry Banagher, I must be a foreigner...

Not at all Connor you just sound like a Hun,

The main reason many good Irish players have played in the English top league as compared to the Scottish league with Celtic is to do with tv exposure and money, only until the last few years have people over here been able to see live Celtic matches via Sky while the English teams have had much more tv exposure and more money to spend on scouting networks,,,,,,btw I see you never mentioned any players from the North but I assume you dont class them as Irishmen

[Lionel Hutz]

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Sean Fallon who signed for Celtic in the 1950's played League of Ireland football for Sligo Rovers.

About Celtic signing only Catholic players, while in theory Celtic have always been open to Protestants, isn't true that the first few seasons of Celtic's existence, the club was almost entirely Catholic. In the very first match Celtic played in 1888 aginst Rangers the entire side were Catholic. Also traditionally Celtic usually have more Catholic players than non-Cahtolics. The first non-Catholic member of the board of directors at Celtic was only appointed in recent years when Ian MacLeod was given a place on the board.

Its only recently that the baord has been opened up at all!
Before that a few familied ruled the roost (Kelly's, White's) for generations and ran the club into the ground!

The reason all the team were catholic in the first few years is because they poached most of them from Hibs

The reason most players were catholics is because most of the fans in the sorrounding areas who supported Celtic were catholics!
Even when Celtic won the European Cup and were regularly in the last eight Celtic were still a selling team.
There were very few big money deals in those days so most of those that played for the club tended to be local lads who supported the team, in general this was true for most clubs around the world before tv money arrived!

[Lionel Hutz]

I always thought racism was more of a problem at club level for Liverpool as apposed to secterianism.
There was a documentary on some time ago about the first black man to play for the club and the issues he encountered!
Although I must say I forget his name

Also werent Liverpool called "Niggerpool" in reference to their attitude to black players?

[John83]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
I always thought racism was more of a problem at club level for Liverpool as apposed to secterianism.

I was told once that Everton were once considered the Catholic club in Liverpool. I don't know if that's true, or even how long ago it refers to.

[BanagherOK!]

Originally posted by tiktok
what 'makes' an irishman.
Most of the posters here are proud of their irishness and it's great to see.
my only reservation is that the Ireland that ex-pats (generally american ones to be fair) and Celtic fans cling to bears little resemblance to the ireland of today, and hopefully less to the ireland of tomorrow.
When someone says 'we're more irish then the irish themselves' it's often because they've lost sight of what ireland currently is, the culture ex-pats cling to is often that of DeValera, rather than of 21st century ireland.

Excluding any refrence to Americans which I know nothing about your reference to Celtic fans show you dont have much grasp of the situation,,,do you honestly think Celtic supporters drinking in bars all over the Glasgow area sit misty eye gazing at their pints thinking of the old country????? jeeeeeeeeeeez ,,,Ive never heard one Celtic fan in all my years say they were more Irish (or think they were) than the Irish

If it wasnt for the anti Irish\catholic feeling in the west of Scotland by the Orange sympathisers Celtics "Irishness" would have been much diluted over the generations and in many ways the pro Irish sentiment is an act of defiance against such bigotry

[Macy]

Well there was the John Barnes incident in the scouse derby when he got banana's thrown at him from both sets of fans...... So witty those loveable scouse scallys.....

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by Lionel Hutz
I always thought racism was more of a problem at club level for Liverpool as apposed to secterianism.
There was a documentary on some time ago about the first black man to play for the club and the issues he encountered!
Although I must say I forget his name

Also werent Liverpool called "Niggerpool" in reference to their attitude to black players?

Howard Gayle was the first black player to play for Liverpool back in the early 80's. He only made five appearances for them.

Everton's Mike Trebilcock was of mixed race and scored two goals for them in the 1966 FA Cup Final.

[Paddy Ramone]

Originally posted by John83
I was told once that Everton were once considered the Catholic club in Liverpool. I don't know if that's true, or even how long ago it refers to.

That has to do with the large number of Irish Catholics who played for Everton in the forties, fifties and early sixties. A street was even called after one of their Irish players Peter Farrell.

Also in the early sixties Everton had an Irish Catholic manager Johnny Carey and ex-Celtic player Bobby Collins playing for them while ex-Rangers player Willie Stevenson was playing for Liverpool. So some people regarded Liverpool as a Protestant club and Everton as a Catholic club but both clubs have Protestant origins as I mentioned earlier.