when is an irish man an irish man

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 1:55 PM

don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

**Feech** · 13/10/2003, 2:00 PM

Originally posted by max power
don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

it has been covered ad nauseum before!

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 2:02 PM

looked around and didn't see anything and after the weekend and talk of changes in the squad, should changes be made to the selection process is what i'm wondering ??

**Paddy Ramone** · 13/10/2003, 2:22 PM

Originally posted by max power
don't know if this has been covered before, but i'm just wondering on where people stand on the area of players who were not born in Ireland not playing for the country, is it ok to have an irish parent and consider yourself irish or is it ok to have an irish granny and consider yourself irish.

or are these players not good enough to make it into the international team in the country they were born and see Ireland as an easy way to get international caps,

so what do yee think ????

Of course, it's o.k for players with Irish roots not born in this country to play for Ireland. Most of these players have a genuine affinity with Ireland. In fact many of the Irish living in England and Scotland have more pride in Irish culture and traditions than the Irish who stayed in Ireland.

**Feech** · 13/10/2003, 2:26 PM

ok, fair enough.

personally, I think if someone has an Irish parent and has retained links to the country, ok.

Otherwise no.

It's funny that people born in Ireland to asylum seekers are somehow not really regarded as being properly Irish, but I am always being told that some of the English muppets who line out for Ireland are unquestionably Irish, up to 110% in fact! Despite them knowing nothing about the country and sometimes having never even been to Ireland.

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 2:27 PM

agreed with all you said paddy, but you have to agree that there are certain players who see Ireland as an easy international cap and don't play with the pride of the others involved.

**Shed End John** · 13/10/2003, 2:43 PM

Originally posted by max power
there are certain players who see Ireland as an easy international cap and don't play with the pride of the others involved.

Totally, but, the opposite side to that coin is Ray Houghton. What a player and an excellent servant to Irish soccer. What really brought it home to me about Razor was watching him in the Gottlieb-Daimler Stadium (formerly the Necker Stadion) before the Stuttgart-Manchester Utd game still glowing with pride at having scored THAT goal.

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 2:48 PM

yeah but does every scot not want to score the winner against england ????
he is a good man and had never forgotten who he played for, some players play the game and that is the last you hear of them, meet them in the pub and ask them what country are you from, what answer will you get ????

**Keely** · 13/10/2003, 3:05 PM

Originally posted by Paddy Ramone
Of course, it's o.k for players with Irish roots not born in this country to play for Ireland. Most of these players have a genuine affinity with Ireland. In fact many of the Irish living in England and Scotland have more pride in Irish culture and traditions than the Irish who stayed in Ireland.

Agree entirely, those (especially) with Irish parents are just as entitled to play for Ireland as any 'irish' man born over.

As someone London born, to Irish parents, i'm quite used to being told i'm not 'irish'; often by those in Ireland. I don't classify myself as English and as rightly mentioned above, the London Irish often (from my experience) show a greater affiliation to Ireland than many of the Irish that are over here...

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 3:09 PM

keely you know where your coming from and from talking to you i know how proud your are to be irish and its not in a stupid way either, take for example i'm just back from the states where i got the usual my granny was irish rubbish, hey guess what my granny was irish too !!!!

**Macy** · 13/10/2003, 3:15 PM

It's not as cut and dried as where someone is born, more their state of mind (not really right but you get my drift)....

I was born in Manch to Irish parents and never considered myself anything but Irish when it came to nationality, others in the same boat thought of themselves as English...

C*nts that decide they might be Irish when an international cap comes calling at a stage when they won't get called up for England are infruiating and do the genuine "Irish" players and people a great disservice. People like Kilbane, Breen etc have always considered themselves Irish and there is no problems, Players like Matt "God Save The Queen" Holland and Clinton "Wait and see" Morrison should never have been capped....

Incidentally Ray Houghton said on that "Green and Red" series that he still looks for Scotlands results first rather than Irelands. An example of everything that is wrong with trawling the family tree for players. I'd also include Cascarino in my hate list, after his "revelations" that he had no Irish roots at all because he was adopted (despite it clearly being the case that as an adoptive child he has the equal rights!).

**max power** · 13/10/2003, 3:17 PM

macy to we agree on a topic ????

**Keely** · 13/10/2003, 3:33 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Macy
[B]It's not as cut and dried as where someone is born, more their state of mind

Precisely, just because an individual isn't born in a country, doesn't mean they genuinely cannot be passionate about that place/culture. You're exactly right when you say it's more a frame of mind, if you paramountly consider yourself Irish and appreciate what that entails you've as much right on the squad as the next irishman.

However, when it comes to a question of nationality, if you're not prepared to call yourself Irish, are not familiar with Ireland and so on, then Irish parents or not you shouldn't be playing...

**Macy** · 13/10/2003, 3:38 PM

Well the first thing I would do is ask a player once, and if he says no or even has to think about it then they should never be asked again...

That would at least remove the likes of Morrison from the equation.

Also players like that no-mark (Pretty sure Alan Lee, but not 100%) who threaten to declare for someone else should be told to fook off if their nationality means so little....

pbn · 13/10/2003, 3:52 PM

Matty Holland sang GSTQ before the Ipswich v Barnsley playoff final at wembley a few years back.
The camera went along the line as that anthem was being played & there was good old matty singing away. I saw it with my own eyes.

I too was born & bred in England of 2 Irish parents
& Macy has already said everything i have ever thought about
the issue of non irish born ( or plastics, and tans which we are also referred to as) players turning out in the green shirt.

People like Matty, Clinton, Carsley etc ruin for the likes off Breen,Kilbane, John Sheridan etc who always wanted to play for ireland. Unfortuneately many lob the likes of Breen & Kilbane in the same category as Clinton & co which shouldn't be the case

**Ozymandias** · 13/10/2003, 3:53 PM

Alan Lee was born in galway..He made that comment after Dongivens didn't even consider him for the greek game even though he was banging in the goals at Rotherham last season adn half the team weren't available........Alan Lee has been capped at youths level as well....

Being Irish is a state of mind..and my mind was in some state in Basell.....go raibh maith agat Fraulein

**Dodge** · 13/10/2003, 4:06 PM

Originally posted by pbn

People like Matty, Clinton, Carsley etc ruin for the likes off Breen,Kilbane, John Sheridan etc who always wanted to play for ireland. Unfortuneately many lob the likes of Breen & Kilbane in the same category as Clinton & co which shouldn't be the case

Why is Carsley in there? He played for Ireland U21s and afaik is very proud to be Irish. Agree re Breen, Kilbane

Also there is nothing to say that people with dual nationality shouldn't be proud of both. I have no problem with any irishman born in England being proud of their English side. I have a huge problem with journeymen Pro's looking for to use ireland to make more money though.

I think any foreign born players should have to declare for Ireland by the age of 19. If they don't know they are irish by then, they'll never know

**Keely** · 13/10/2003, 4:23 PM

It's a complex debate that's fuelled by the England/Ireland history/proximity. We know that they're allowed to play for Ireland by law, but, even i who grew up in England would have reservations about someone who stood and sang english anthem and then played for Ireland, dual nationality or not.

I'm irish and appreciative of the upbringing i've had in England, yet would never call myself half irish and half english. Back to the spirit thing again, that's what some people find difficult to comprehend - in some eyes you've to be one or the other, you can't be both!

**yur man** · 13/10/2003, 4:44 PM

ive always thought that 16/17/18 would be a good age to declare and then be unable to change

remember that butler guy tryin to play for ireland after bein married to an irish girl. that was fairly embarressin. glad he didnt last long

gettin around the rules like that takes away from the special status it is to play for your country

a lot of people have different nationalities in them, but u can only play for one country, and u shud decide early

**Beavis** · 13/10/2003, 5:58 PM

Defo should bring in a restriction on this by asking young players to declare before success(or lack of it) decides for them.Breen and Kilbane genuinely want to be in the green shirt.Include recently retired 'keeper Dean Kiely in this.He played when he was young for an irish side set up by his oul fella called Lancashire Harps(I think this was the name) and talks about how he was always an irishman born in England.He knew who he wanted to play for just a pity for him Given was round too.