when is an irish man an irish man

**London Irish** · 13/10/2003, 6:48 PM

What a sterile debate. How many of those who call us plastics were in Basel??????????

just back from Basel and proud to say hundreds of us plastics there suporting the boys in green and playing silly money to do so (�350). Having great time with all IRISH Fans. Met lads from Dublin, Mayo, London, Nottingham and Birmingham.

Our parents never chose to leave the land of their birth for fun. Some weren't 'lucky' enough to have the choice to stay. Why should we ever forget that???????

**lopez** · 13/10/2003, 10:59 PM

To be fair to Matt Holland, the man has one English parent. As someone with a non - Irish parent, I can understand his love of both his parents' countries.

The thing about Irish fans born in England is that they mostly have two Irish parents, or as in my case and a couple of others, one Irish parent and one non-British. It is rare that you find an Irish fan (with or without one English parent) that also supports England. In my time (22 years) abroad I've met only one who confessed to this (before Romania 1990) and I suppose he went back to watching England, because that was the first and last I saw him.

Yet the same can't be said of the players. I never saw someone like Andy Townsend, John Aldridge or Michael Robinson as Irish, great 'servants' they all were, and I think it is laughable that anyone ever did themselves. How can anyone born in England, brought up in England, with three English grandparents say that honestly. These three showed their true loyalties (as did Clinton) when they were first approached and all have 'histories' of either supporting England against Ireland or desperately wanting to play for England. They just put the rest of us in the same boat as themselves.

As for the attitude about the 'plastics' good to see there is still some of the old w ankers at Irish games who have yet to get their head around us...not! Met one eejit on Saturday who asked for my passport when he heard the accent say that the owner had a ticket. My reply of course mentioned both tosser and f uck off.

**lopez** · 14/10/2003, 9:19 AM

The above players mentioned qualified for Irish citizenship purely on legal grounds set out by legislation. There are people who go to watch Ireland with no Irish blood whatsoever. There were St Pauli fans in Basel on Saturday. There was also this young lady from Japan who was recently made an honorary member by the London RISSC.

The point is that one minute Michael Robinson was wanting an interview with Ron Greenwood, the next he's greener than the cast of The Quiet Man. Replace Greenwood with Sven and you've got Morrison. I'd defend their right to Irish citizenship (therefore making them eligible to play for Ireland) but I'm not going to do an impression of the kid with Emperor and his new clothes and claim people are Irish who, football caps apart, know little about the place.

**Dodge** · 14/10/2003, 9:53 AM

Agree with everything Lopez said...

**S.E.P.1990** · 14/10/2003, 9:57 AM

B]The thing about Irish fans born in England is that they mostly have two Irish parents, or as in my case and a couple of others, one Irish parent and one non-British. It is rare that you find an Irish fan (with or without one English parent) that also supports England.[/B]

Sorry to disagree with this statement but, as an English fan with one Irish parent, I know many English supporting Irish fans. The problem is in Ireland they dont think they can tell anyone. As Conor might know this is especially true down in the wilds of Kerry (where i was resident for a number of years). Just to mention that 7 of us went to the England v Germany game in Munich, all of us have at least one Irish parent and 3 of them where born in Ireland.

I agree especially with the John Aldridge comments from earlier because I used to live 5 doors down from him in Liverpool and his family where not particularly Irish (unlike other families in the area). Everyone knows he only did due to continuously being snubbed by Bobby Robson (though he was in competition with Beardsley, Barnes, Lineker etc).

**lopez** · 14/10/2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Sorry to disagree with this statement but, as an English fan with one Irish parent, I know many English supporting Irish fans. The problem is in Ireland they dont think they can tell anyone. As Conor might know this is especially true down in the wilds of Kerry (where i was resident for a number of years). Just to mention that 7 of us went to the England v Germany game in Munich, all of us have at least one Irish parent and 3 of them where born in Ireland.

I was talking about fans that follow Ireland and also follow England. Sounds like you just follow England to me, if you decided to go to Munich on the same day as Ireland's most important game for years.

As for not being able to tell people you support England in Ireland, well you can thank your scummish compadres who wrecked Lansdowne for that one.

**max power** · 14/10/2003, 10:34 AM

lopez there is no need to start that sort of thing, everyone knows the average english supporter had nothing to do with the trouble in landsdown, its when you bring other things into football that the trouble starts, its game, not a religion.

**lopez** · 14/10/2003, 11:29 AM

Originally posted by max power
lopez there is no need to start that sort of thing, everyone knows the average english supporter had nothing to do with the trouble in landsdown, its when you bring other things into football that the trouble starts, its game, not a religion.

This average supporter I keep hearing. I've yet to meet one.

Yeah, the poor misunderstood darlings. Its always Johnny Foreigner looking for a row, the local police, the meeja. Get a grip! With the exception of parts of Eastern Europe, I've found local fans and police OK. I sat in the Swiss end on Saturday, no probs. If it was just a 'handful' of Irish fans causing trouble, then they'd be either lamped or pointed out to the police, and they sure as hell would be too embarrassed to go to another game again.

It wasn't Combat 18 that started the Dublin riot, but ordinary England fans. You could call them average ones.

By the way S.E.P. I'd imagine you're 'Irish' friends would find it just as hard telling some of the scummeros they're England fans as the residents of Kerry.

**petef** · 14/10/2003, 12:09 PM

To me if someones willing to declare themselves for Ireland and there good enough then I dont see why not.

**fergalr** · 14/10/2003, 12:39 PM

I fully agree that declaring early and playing underage should be enough to silence doubters.

However, we have to face up to the fact that we've never achieved anything without a liberal smattering of bona-fide brits in the team - from the really top class ones like Lawrenson, Houghton and Aldridge to the lesser lights of Robinson, Cascarino, Galvin, etc.

The glory years of 1987-1994 would never have happened without these imports. Looking at the debates about squad clearouts I fear that we're doomed to mediocracy until we start finding irishmen again.

Sad but true?

**max power** · 14/10/2003, 12:41 PM

well i have met a lot of normal english supporters who have no interest rioting and the like and i have also met a lot of irish supporters who have probem with england either, i for one have no problem with english people, i have a friends from england and have family there and they don't riot at every given chance, why i've even met a rovers fan who doesn't riot !!!

**max power** · 14/10/2003, 12:52 PM

ah conor you can make even the worst day worth while, well said to all of the above !!

**Junior** · 14/10/2003, 12:59 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
You've yet to meet an Englishman who is not a hooligan? You've yet to meet a fellow from England who just goes to watch a game, maybe have a few pints and go home? You've yet to meet the standard, run of the mill fan who enjoys football? Every week, the hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of English people who go to games can be fairly represented by a group of Combat 18 thugs? Come on, let's not get too hysterical. I must have been to a fraction of the games in England that you have been to, but I've been to games in Manchester, Leeds, Coventry, London and I can honestly say I've never met anything other than an average supporter. After years of documentaries and books, I was downright disappointed with how boring and normal it all was. I can honestly say I've sen far worse at eircom League games, though I will accept that I have not sampled the delights of Milwall, Stoke, Bristol or Cardiff.

I must admit to seeing thousands of 'your average' supporters up in Glasgow.... fancy that eh Connor??????

**S.E.P.1990** · 14/10/2003, 1:39 PM

I was talking about fans that follow Ireland and also follow England. Sounds like you just follow England to me, if you decided to go to Munich on the same day as Ireland's most important game for years.

Sorry Lopez, 5 of the lads were Irish supporters who couldnt get a ticket for the Holland game, but knowing what a big game England v Germany was, decided it would be a good game to go to. We actually ended up watching the Irish game on German TV before heading off to the Olympic Stadium.

As for your point on the hooligans - dont do the usual generalisation about England fans. As u r not an England fan and have never been to an England match u wouldnt know what the average supporter is like. Surprisingly (for u that is) they are pretty much the same as Ireland supporters. Unfortunately there are some gobsh*tes and hangers on who want to be the so-called tough men - these ppl arent fans just thugs. Much like all Shamrock Rovers fans arent scumbags because of the act of a few of there supporters.

As for ur point about not being able to say u r an Irish fan in parts of England I totally agree - but it doesnt make it right. The problem r ppl who, once they see an England fan, automatically think scumbag (or in England, once they see an Ireland fan think IRA).

**max power** · 14/10/2003, 2:33 PM

when do i get my badge and newsletter ???

**Schumi** · 14/10/2003, 3:31 PM

As far as I'm concerned, someone who grew up in England (or anywhere else) with Irish parent(s) and considered themselves Irish has every right to play for Ireland but should have to make the decision at a certain age (18 maybe) that they'll only play for Ireland.

**lopez** · 14/10/2003, 9:16 PM

Originally posted by Conor74
You've yet to meet an Englishman who is not a hooligan?...

What you are talking about is club football where hooliganism is watered down. Its like comparing low alcohol beer with poteen. I am talking about the England team. You know, three lions etc.

In 1991, I was in the Black Lion pub in Kilburn when it was attacked by a load of the scum. There, a couple of dozen Irish fans joined by a family with a baby for a drink were bombarded through the window with, amongst other things, a lead bottomed dustbin. My mate almost had his jugular cut - he made the inside of the Daily Express - and I had a gash on my forehead by a pint glass thrown in through the door, which thankfully clotted without the need of stitches, so I could go to the match. I still have a scar as a souvenir. This happened at about 2pm. Had they come at five, with more fans and additional 'Paddy builders', they would have had a proper battle, but the chaps as portrayed by that fat w anker Brimson are not so brave in real life.

1995, I'm sure you know about that.

1990 Dublin. Almost came to blows with a well known Chelsea 'fan' Terry Last - he who spent a couple of years at one of Her Majesty's hotels, after being 'framed' - and his firm, at Heathrow Airport after their constant UDA chants got a bit irritating. Almost, but after seeing that both sides were a bit too even, the pussy Last, as they say in his 'manor', 'bottled it'. You won't find that episode in 'Everywhere We Go.'

1990, Italy. Decided to go straight to Sicily, too much bother.

1988 Stuttgart. Left the city early for same reason.

1985 Wembley. The Scum bit off more than they could chew here, getting a bit of a pasting, which probably explains their superb return performance in 1991.

So forgive me if I'm not aquainted with the Nick Hornby set.

Funny Connor how you are quick to defend the scum while being so critical of Celtic fans for singing the odd party song and booing opponents.

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
As for your point on the hooligans - dont do the usual generalisation about England fans. As u r not an England fan and have never been to an England match u wouldnt know what the average supporter is like.

I've mentioned six above. Went to Spain (mother's country) in 1981 & 1996 at Wembley and Villa in 2001. Weren't much improvement there either. Must be Gibraltar eh?

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
Surprisingly (for u that is) they are pretty much the same as Ireland supporters.

You are joking? You have got to be ****ing joking?

Originally posted by S.E.P.1990
As for ur point about not being able to say u r an Irish fan in parts of England I totally agree - but it doesnt make it right.

In England I can say I am an Irish fan with no problems. I just wouldn't go to an England match and speak with an Irish accent.

**gustavo** · 14/10/2003, 11:25 PM

>>In England I can say I am an Irish fan with no problems. I just wouldn't go to an England match and speak with an Irish accent.>>

Because of course if a guy with an english accent went in amongst our fans as a mere anthropological experiment at an ireland match he would be made to feel most welcome especially if he produced a rangers shirt cos he heard that the irish have a great love for some team in glasgow

thecorner · 14/10/2003, 11:28 PM

vey interesting indeed

an article saturday morning with brian kerr

"we have a great chance of beating the swiss,cos our forefathers were always up for a batlle when our country was been invaded and it has been passed down family traditions thru the years"
"our players will battle like they did"

one thing u forgot brian

some of our team were descendants of the w@nkers that invaded us

**Macy** · 15/10/2003, 8:12 AM

Originally posted by fergalr

However, we have to face up to the fact that we've never achieved anything without a liberal smattering of bona-fide brits in the team - from the really top class ones like Lawrenson, Houghton and Aldridge to the lesser lights of Robinson, Cascarino, Galvin, etc.

The glory years of 1987-1994 would never have happened without these imports. Looking at the debates about squad clearouts I fear that we're doomed to mediocracy until we start finding irishmen again.

Doesn't make it right, and certainly does take away from the achievement, IMO....

Boll0xs to all this anyway - clubs are far more important than international teams.... Far more important to me that Town win the Cup Final than Ireland winning last Saturday...