The Collective Stupidity of the Irish

**dahamsta** · 20/10/2008, 10:37 PM

I may be having a rant at the establishment, but at least I put more time and thought into it than this redundant drivel:

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

You might as well be quoting The Star. Tax on children's shoes for god's sake, come into the present.

That's not personal abuse btw, that's calling you on your sound bytes.

**BohsPartisan** · 20/10/2008, 11:41 PM

There is hope though, I came from a staunch FF family (on my ma's side - da's English) and not only have I never voted FF, my ma hates them now as well. I know quite a few people like that, so it is changing, albeit slowly. The days of FF overall majorities are long gone. Problem is there is no credible alternative that would be much different in power.

**jebus** · 20/10/2008, 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by BohsPartisan

There is hope though, I came from a staunch FF family (on my ma's side - da's English) and not only have I never voted FF, my ma hates them now as well. I know quite a few people like that, so it is changing, albeit slowly. The days of FF overall majorities are long gone. Problem is there is no credible alternative that would be much different in power.

Yeah but you morphed into a Socialist, it's like coming off a crack addiction by self harming

**bennocelt** · 21/10/2008, 7:12 AM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

I dont vote Fianna Fail. Never have and never will.

likewise , but was thinking if there is an election in the morning I might actually vote for them - let them try and clean up their mess

By the way did anyone see the Green TD (Paul Gogarty?)on V Browne show last nite - man he was awful, Browne really ate into him, looks like the Greens don't have any backbone

**Dodge** · 21/10/2008, 8:00 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling.

And yet they got re-elected. billsthoughts has already said he doesn't vote FF, he's just pointing out that the majority of voters need more than "They can't be as bad as FF" to vote anyone else in. It wasn't like he was promoting FF.

And your rant did come off like a teenage tantrum

**Billsthoughts** · 21/10/2008, 8:42 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I may be having a rant at the establishment, but at least I put more time and thought into it than this redundant drivel:

You might as well be quoting The Star. Tax on children's shoes for god's sake, come into the present.

That's not personal abuse btw, that's calling you on your sound bytes.

.....In your opinion....

I merely chose two examples that came to my head were the opposition hardly covered themselves in glory. Sitting Governments are easy targets.

I actually think Kenny is much underated and unfairly maligned. But I dont see any major policy diffs with FF at a time when there is huge scope for them. So thats why I wouldnt be falling over myself to vote for them.

**dahamsta** · 21/10/2008, 11:38 AM

Originally Posted by Dodge

And yet they got re-elected. billsthoughts has already said he doesn't vote FF, he's just pointing out that the majority of voters need more than "They can't be as bad as FF" to vote anyone else in. It wasn't like he was promoting FF.

Seems like a perfectly logical hypothesis to me.

And your rant did come off like a teenage tantrum

Perhaps it did, but responding with sound bytes achieves nothing, as does your comment. If you disagree with the premise, rebut it.

**mypost** · 21/10/2008, 1:12 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

.....In your opinion....

I actually think Kenny is much underated and unfairly maligned. But I dont see any major policy diffs with FF at a time when there is huge scope for them. So thats why I wouldnt be falling over myself to vote for them.

We have elections, that are there to punish governments for poor performances. They're not a cosmetic rubber-stamping exercise for FF every 5 years. Continuing to vote for them, because the opposition "aren't up to much" retains the status quo, and the same failed policies. Why should it change, when the electorate just keep backing them at the ballot box?

**Dodge** · 21/10/2008, 1:20 PM

You're missing the point mypost. saying "we have to get someone better in" is all well and fine, unless there si nobody better to bring in. Whether you think there is or not is immaterial to the majority of people. The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Oh and elections aren't a referendum on whether the government is good or bad.

**dahamsta** · 21/10/2008, 2:44 PM

That's suggesting - actually it's not suggesting, it's actually saying - that the alternative is worse than the incumbent, do you honestly believe that or are you soundbyting too Dodge? I honestly can't believe that anyone could honestly believe that. The only thing the incumbents could possibly be admired for is their talent at misdirection. Is that really something we should be admiring?

Oh and elections aren't referendums on whether governments good or bad, they're referendums on whether representatives are good or bad. You could argue it's much of a muchness.

adam

**Dodge** · 21/10/2008, 2:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Thats the only comment I made. Are you saying that FG and labour aren't contributing factors in FF getting elected?

In the interest of openness, I voted Labour last time out, with lower preferences to other candidates. None of FF, FG or PD got anything from me

they're referendums on whether representatives are good or bad.

No, they're not. Its a choice between potential representatives, and their parties. What billsthoughts alluded to earlier is that while FF may be abject failures to some, if the local FFer gets enough funding for a local project (for example), he could well be elected again. Even if he didn't do much, if the other guy doesn't provide a better alternative, why would someone vote for him. It mightn't be a choice between good or bad, it could be between bad and less bad...

**pete** · 21/10/2008, 3:32 PM

I am sure it is not an Irish issue.

Everyone & I don' think I am exaggerating bitches and moans about FF but I never hear anyone actually admit they vow for them.

Irish politics has so much baggage and history that I don't think FG or Labour could grab power for more than a few years at a time as too many people will never vote for them. FG have farmers image & Labour have quasi ties to the unions so too many vested interests.

I agree with comments above that Bruton & Leo Varadkar have improved their public profile in recent weeks. Bruton has always been good on economics but Varadkar is a rising star.

It is time for a new party without the baggage of civil war politics. The PDs tried it but too much FF baggage. In Italy Berlusconi created a party from scratch so it can be done - his politics are irrelevant. Get a collection of the best independent business minds in the country together with a big enough majority to shun all the special interests.

**OneRedArmy** · 21/10/2008, 3:57 PM

Originally Posted by Dodge

saying "we have to get someone better in" is all well and fine, unless there si nobody better to bring in. Whether you think there is or not is immaterial to the majority of people. The fault lies with the opposition for not conveying their message

Oh and elections aren't a referendum on whether the government is good or bad.

As I said above, I don't know how anyone can say with any certainty that the alternatives are no better.

They may give the appearance that they may be no better, but given the turnover in TDs since the last time an alternative Govt was in power, we don't honestly know how they would fare.

Semantics maybe, but I honestly believe we are at the level where they couldn't be any worse so deserve a chance on that basis, regardless of how well they run their campaigns or are perceived.

However, all this said, I disagree with whoever above said FF would win a election in morning. When people start getting hit in their pockets (as they are now), thats when change comes. Its rarely driven by policy or ideological reasons as it should be and invariably, because it only happens when poor government runs its logical course, is inherently reactive and too late to reverse the damage done by the incumbents.

Ergo, people are stupid.....

**jebus** · 21/10/2008, 4:32 PM

Originally Posted by pete

It is time for a new party without the baggage of civil war politics. The PDs tried it but too much FF baggage. In Italy Berlusconi created a party from scratch so it can be done - his politics are irrelevant. Get a collection of the best independent business minds in the country together with a big enough majority to shun all the special interests.

Good in theory, but the best independent business minds in the country will have their own special interests. Face it people democracy doesn't work

**Angus** · 21/10/2008, 5:48 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

Good in theory, but the best independent business minds in the country will have their own special interests. Face it people democracy doesn't work

Sir, I humbly disagree - democracy works, problem is we do not live in a democracy. Us tipping up every four years to decide on a list of people where we have no control or say over how those list of people will come together to form an administration is not democracy.

Theoretically you or I could set up our own party and challenge and while that is theoretically impossible, it is deliberately made financially out of reach.

We voted on Lisbon - but our vote is accepted only as an opening offer. We have no say about what referenda are put to us - this is not democracy - it is not that far from facism

**jebus** · 21/10/2008, 6:50 PM

But this form of democracy is what we have created for ourselves throughout the past 2 centuries. Arguably democracy has been on the slide since John Mills (with help of course) conceived it in England nearly 200 years ago and Thomas Jefferson took it on in America. The majority of democracy's early thinkers all held the belief that the system needed to be reformed almost every generation (which makes people who look at original constitutions as sacred seem ridiculous). But if Democracy is to change with the ages then this is what we have given ourselves as modern democracy

**Angus** · 21/10/2008, 9:02 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

But this form of democracy is what we have created for ourselves throughout the past 2 centuries. Arguably democracy has been on the slide since John Mills (with help of course) conceived it in England nearly 200 years ago and Thomas Jefferson took it on in America. The majority of democracy's early thinkers all held the belief that the system needed to be reformed almost every generation (which makes people who look at original constitutions as sacred seem ridiculous). But if Democracy is to change with the ages then this is what we have given ourselves as modern democracy

Again, I nearly agree - I would respectfully suggest that we have not created it - it has imposed upon us - I agree that we have allowed it be foisted upon us by our collective consistent acceptance of unacceptable liberties.

You and I basically agree - this is one of those esoteric discussions over fine wines and belgian chocolates.....

**Billsthoughts** · 21/10/2008, 9:07 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

However, all this said, I disagree with whoever above said FF would win a election in morning. When people start getting hit in their pockets (as they are now), thats when change comes. Its rarely driven by policy or ideological reasons as it should be and invariably, because it only happens when poor government runs its logical course, is inherently reactive and too late to reverse the damage done by the incumbents.

Ergo, people are stupid.....

the facts dont back up the above statement at all.
in 22 elections since 1937 FF have not formed the govt in the immediate aftermath on only 5 occasions. their percentage of the vote has also remained consistent throughout that whole period even when out of govt.

In response to all the other posters...you are blaming FF for getting elected instead of blaming the two main oppostion parties for not providing a creditable alternative to voters.

In response to people saying the opposition couldnt be any worse - im sure your aware in 92 FF under haughey were just as bad. Labour did a great job of highlighting this and got a lot of extra seats(mostly FG ones) as a result. First thing they did ? go into coalition with FF.

**jebus** · 21/10/2008, 11:28 PM

Originally Posted by Angus

Again, I nearly agree - I would respectfully suggest that we have not created it - it has imposed upon us - I agree that we have allowed it be foisted upon us by our collective consistent acceptance of unacceptable liberties.

You and I basically agree - this is one of those esoteric discussions over fine wines and belgian chocolates.....

Cause if it's not fine wines

**pete** · 22/10/2008, 7:24 AM

Originally Posted by jebus

Face it people democracy doesn't work

Democracy is deeply flawed as stupid people get a vote too!

Analysis of the Stupid Voter in the US but true of every country, just swap the names.

Not sure Presidential style any better but maybe Parliamentary politics is flawed? Parliaments ensure you get someone such as Brian Lenihan with couple of years Justice Minister experience & no economic experience whatsoever apparently running the country. Is he in a position to question Department of Finance analysis?