The Collective Stupidity of the Irish

**dahamsta** · 19/10/2008, 3:11 PM

This ties into the Budget thread somewhat but I think it's a valid standalone topic. The fact alone that we still have Fianna Fail in power should prove my point, but I'm sure people will argue that there aren't any valid alternatives out there. (I agree that they're all much of a muchness, but a look into history will prove that FG and Lab are traditionally the party to dig this country out of a hole that FF creates for us. It would have been nice if, for once, they were allowed to try running the country from the top instead of the bottom.) However in just the past week or so we've had two non-electoral issues crop up that prove the premise on their own imho.

College fees distractions. Batt O'Keeffe fires a comment into the atmostphere about fees. It's not a policy, not even a ministerial opinion per se, just a "thought". College students are up in arms, march on the streets, 6000 students in Cork alone. A week later the budget comes out and registration fees increase by more than 50%, and all is quiet on the western front. (At other levels, subs are gone, student-teacher ratios are increased, language support is reduced out of line with requirements. We don't hear anything about that either, except from the teacher themselves, and then not loudly enough.)

Medical card misdirection. Oh shame oh shame the world is ending, people earning enough to support their own health expenses are no longer entitled to a freebie. Of course there will be exceptions, but Gov.ie will back down. (Actually they already have.) Yay us, our exhortations, indignation and protests won on the day, we're the best population ever. Meanwhile, every one of us has been hit with 1% more tax - it's not a levy, it is an income tax - by a government singularly incapable of managing it. (I don't object to more taxation per se, I object to giving it to these muppets.) They included the people least able to pay it, in fact those people will end up paying more than the rest of us. Are we out in the streets about that? No, not a one of us.

Fianna Fail pulled it off once again. They waggled the fingers on one hand and the population followed the fingers like hypnotised sheep, drooling and smiling to themselves. Meanwhile the other hand grabbed our jocks and knickers and pulled them up over our heads, in a full-blown national atomic wedgie. And they'll do it again next year, and probably the year after that, in time to start softening us up for another election.

There should have been a vote of no confidence last week. The government should have fallen. We should be facing into elections.

Collectively, we're up there with the Austrians. We're dimwits. We're retards. We should be in a home, receiving special care.

Sorry to be so negative, but seriously, god help us. We're idiots.

adam

**mypost** · 19/10/2008, 4:38 PM

In all the fiasco over the medical card, it must be remembered that it's not the only tax imposed in the budget. The airline, car parking, and income taxes are all just as damaging, and any one of them should be capable of bringing a government down on it's own.

But then again, there are too many federalists in this country, who do what they're told by the government, rather than stand up for themselves. And in another election tomorrow, they'd be "ordered" to vote FF. They would and the vicious circle continues.

**jebus** · 19/10/2008, 4:52 PM

I've been saying similar for a while now, this country and it's electorate's short term outlook will drive people out of this country I think (certainly looking that way for myself anyway). I just can't see how Fianna Fail keep getting away with this, in any other country they would have been brought down by now. Even leaving their newer policies aside you have Mary Harney attempting to move us into a two tier health system with ridiculous plans like closing the Ennis, Nenagh and St.Johns hospital in the Limerick/Clare region and increasing the numbers in the already under staffed Mid West Regional by 90,000 patients. All of this is of course to get people to go private and bump up profits, it really is enough to make you spit at Fianna Fail voters to be honest. I don't know, there's so much more to talk about with this government that it's hard to know where to start really.

They genuinely should be ashamed of themselves for what they've done in the last decade, I somehow doubt they are though

**superfrank** · 19/10/2008, 6:49 PM

FF and their voters don't care.

My grandparents are both lifelong FF voters and they'll be affected by the medical card withdrawal. Though, they'll still vote FF next time around.

The student fees one is interesting. There is a protest for next Wednesday on O'Connell Street (that's right, the smartarsed students who'll be running the country in twenty/thirty years don't even know where the Gov do their business). A lot of the complaints about the fee re-introduction are ill-informed, imo. Current students won't be affected, afaik. It'll be prospective students. If most of the protesters knew this, they'd stop protesting about it.

However, the registration issue WILL affect current students. A sharp increase, �685 in two years, has lead to some of my friends saying they won't be going back to college next year as they think they won't be able to afford it.

My problem with the fees proposal (although I imagine it'll be withdrawn soon enough) is that it'll discourage people going/sending their kids to college. Bad news, imo, with the country in recession.

I've always hated FF but the latest batch of idiots (Ahern, Cowen, Lenihan, O'Keeffe, O'Dea, et al) are really damaging this country's future.

I've also lost a great amount of respect for the Greens. They should pull out of Gov, imo.

**OneRedArmy** · 19/10/2008, 9:06 PM

Superfrank you make a good point.

I've always been mildly amused by the amount of people who, knowing I have family from the North, around the time of power sharing/Assembly elections look down their noses and make references to the naked tribalism of Northern politics (which are broadly true) as if somehow Irish politics is some kind of meritocratic utopia.

The reality is that for a not insignificant amount of the electorate, its still about Dev, Collins etc. (or similarly irrelevant issues), which when you think about it, is absolutely mindblowing in 2008.

You then have another large chunk of electorate who drank the FF Kool Aid in the good times and are now having second thoughts about free marketeerism and are searching for a scapegoat to blame for their inability to meet the mortgage payments on their investment property and the condo in Bulgaria...

The medical card farce is simply the latest symptom of incompetent government by politicians who aren't particularly bright and are allowed to legislate for short-term gain and re-election by an electorate who are very easily and repeatedly fooled.

The whole set-up of the medical system is ridiculous. We are stuck in some kind of perpetual limbo between a European universal provision system and a US fully private system, with temporary lunges to the former (generally before elections) without proper funding which are soon reversed (as we are seeing now) when someone realises the sums don't add up. The end result is a healthcare system that is poor value for money and wholly unreflective of the international economic position of the country.

Thats only one example of poor Government.

So yes, we are idiots. We get what we deserve.

**dahamsta** · 19/10/2008, 9:58 PM

Originally Posted by OneRedArmy

The reality is that for a not insignificant amount of the electorate, its still about Dev, Collins etc. (or similarly irrelevant issues), which when you think about it, is absolutely mindblowing in 2008.

I think if it was actually still about those things we might be better off. Sadly, it's more about how Mammy and Daddy voted, what some ignoramus in the pub said last week, and what lying media whores like Paul Williams and Kevin Myers say. If these people educated themselves in some way about what's really going on, we might get somewhere.

adam

**superfrank** · 19/10/2008, 10:31 PM

Agree completely with you there adam.

Although, the pro/anti-treaty psyche still dictates how my grandparents vote (I have ancestors who were members of the IRA & the "Irregulars").

I know a lot of people my age who, when voting, usually went with the family party or used one soundbyte to justify their vote.

The one thing about this attitude that I'm happy with is that a lot of my peers will more than likely vote against FF in the next election over the whole fees proposal.

**jmurphyc** · 20/10/2008, 11:43 AM

FF should definitely be facing a vote of no confidence. This budget was an absolute disgrace. If they want to generate revenue for themselves they should be taxing in the right areas and taxing the people who, whilst it may inconvenience them, can afford it. Calling the 1% thing a levy is a joke. Would people be up in arms if it was called a tax? FF seem to be getting away with preying on the most vulnerable members of our society.

As for the student fees debate at the moment, I'm beginning to think that it would be better if they're brought in and just means tested at a high threshold (and hopefully not be tweaked as time goes by). We really do seem to be focussing on the wrong areas.

Sadly, FF know that they'll get away with it. By the time the next election comes along we may well be out of the current financial crisis and everyone will have forgotten their previous incompetence and disregard for the people who voted for them. The only hope - as someone else said - is that the Greens pull out, but I'd say they're probably feeling too cosy in power right now to jeopardise their future.

**Angus** · 20/10/2008, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

I think if it was actually still about those things we might be better off. Sadly, it's more about how Mammy and Daddy voted, what some ignoramus in the pub said last week, and what lying media whores like Paul Williams and Kevin Myers say. If these people educated themselves in some way about what's really going on, we might get somewhere.

adam

Like most here, I echo the sentiment. However, I have little faith that it will change materially.

Most organised countries have political systems which arevirtually impossible to permeate - the US and UK have a 2 party system, in effect, who control everything. The US in particular is the classic cartel where the Dems or GOP control everything. There is widespread electoral fraud and aabuse in the US - just for the record, let us not pretend that this is anything to do with Fox and Acorn - the GOP invented electoral fraud - with the classic tactic of having no functioning voting machines in poorer and black areas

I can see FF being in opposition after the next election but that does not change the issue - the issue is one of the public at large being disenfranchised.

Tipping up once every four or five years to tick a box is not democracy and is certainly not representative.

The Greens got less than 5% of the vote in the last election yet are in Government - read that again - 96% of the public decided to vote other than for the Greens and they are in Government.

I know our system is what it is but please drop the pretence that this is anything other than anti democratic.

One of my favourite stats is in the UK in 2005, the Tories got more votes in England than Labour, but got 92 seats less - did anybody say anything ? No, because soon this facism will benefit the Tories

In our lifetime, the only example we have seen where true people generated change happened was the Eastern Bloc countries in the 1980's

Adam - you start the "revolution party" and I will be right behind you - but ensure you have no skeletons because they will come after us with everything they have...

**bennocelt** · 20/10/2008, 1:14 PM

I agree
What really gets my goat is all the people marching up and down the street moaning about FF, etc (like the nurses in the last election) but I would bet my bottom dollar more than half of them voted for FF in the last election

The ordinary people of ireland - the electorate - also have to take the can - how the hell did FF get in for 3 elections - the people voted them in

having said that FG make me cringe (apart from Leo Vard and bruton)

**jebus** · 20/10/2008, 1:17 PM

Originally Posted by bennocelt

I agree
What really gets my goat is all the people marching up and down the street moaning about FF, etc (like the nurses in the last election) but I would bet my bottom dollar more than half of them voted for FF in the last election

The ordinary people of ireland - the electorate - also have to take the can - how the hell did FF get in for 3 elections - the people voted them in

having said that FG make me cringe (apart from Leo Vard and bruton)

Was about to name those two FG candidates as reasons why I'd vote for them over FF any day of the week. Bruton knows his stuff, as does Leo, and both aren't afraid to stick their necks out and lay out their future plans. Remember Bertie getting upset because someone as new to the Dail as Leo had the audacity to question his integrity

**Billsthoughts** · 20/10/2008, 1:22 PM

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

**Dodge** · 20/10/2008, 1:27 PM

Its not an irish phenomenon either.

**jebus** · 20/10/2008, 1:29 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

We all know why they get elected, and we all know that the alternative isn't up to much, but at this stage what do Fianna Fail stand for (besides greed of course)? Do you not think it's time we ditch the argument of 'sure the other crowd would do the same' that has festered in this country and actually look at Fianna Fail's attempts to introduce a two tier society in Ireland, their undermining of Irish neutrality, their own personal corruption, and their utter inability to formulate a Lisbon Treaty strategy and say enough is enough? Even just to try and shake up their own party?

**Billsthoughts** · 20/10/2008, 1:35 PM

I dont vote Fianna Fail. Never have and never will.

**mypost** · 20/10/2008, 1:46 PM

Originally Posted by jebus

We all know why they get elected, and we all know that the alternative isn't up to much, but at this stage what do Fianna Fail stand for (besides greed of course)? Do you not think it's time we ditch the argument of 'sure the other crowd would do the same' that has festered in this country?

As said before, we have elections every 5 years, which is basically a ref on FF's record over the time. It ~~not~~ shouldn't be "the opposition aren't up to much", it's "have FF performed up to scratch?" If not, punish them.

Originally Posted by Angus

The Greens got less than 5% of the vote in the last election yet are in Government - read that again - 96% of the public decided to vote other than for the Greens and they are in Government.

Even less people voted for the PD's, yet who ended up in government?

**beautifulrock** · 20/10/2008, 3:31 PM

Sinmple fact is you get the Goevernment you deserve, only positive I can take from this discussion is that at least everyone seems to have voted. FF are not up to much for sure but you are having a laugh if you think FG would do any better.

**OneRedArmy** · 20/10/2008, 4:21 PM

Originally Posted by beautifulrock

Sinmple fact is you get the Goevernment you deserve, only positive I can take from this discussion is that at least everyone seems to have voted. FF are not up to much for sure but you are having a laugh if you think FG would do any better.

I think its been long enough since they've been in power at this stage to make it impossible to say this given the turnover in the parliamentary party etc.

I'm not saying they would necessarily do any better, but surely any change at this stage would be welcome?

Of course I'd never vote for the blueshirts (see my post above

)

**dahamsta** · 20/10/2008, 6:57 PM

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

Sweet Jesus!
Fianna Fail get elected because they are brilliant at the actual nuts and bolts of getting elected.
Where is the alternative?
Am no fan of FF but the other parties stand for nothing.

Originally Posted by dahamsta

(I agree that they're all much of a muchness, but a look into history will prove that FG and Lab are traditionally the party to dig this country out of a hole that FF creates for us. It would have been nice if, for once, they were allowed to try running the country from the top instead of the bottom.)

Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling. And, imho, damaging. Do us a favour - do yourself a favour - and stop throwing out the same old crap lines, we're tired of hearing them from people that should know better. Add something of substance to your post - anything - and make it worth reading.

adam

**Billsthoughts** · 20/10/2008, 7:34 PM

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Seriously Billsthoughts, the alternatives are bad, but to even suggest that they're worse than the incumbents is just mind-boggling. And, imho, damaging. Do us a favour - do yourself a favour - and stop throwing out the same old crap lines, we're tired of hearing them from people that should know better. Add something of substance to your post - anything - and make it worth reading.

adam

If history have proven anything its that the coalition govs just do the exact same as soon as they get into power. from nepotism to taxing childrens shoes.

Its a perfectly valid point to make in a thread that was reading like a 16 year olds rant against the establishment.

seriously adam, you dont have to personally abuse someone just cause they disagree with your narrow little world view.