Another Nordie thread

[FarBeag]

Yeah but NI is a loyalist team. Ireland are not a republican team. That is the difference!

KK, you leave yourself right open all the time with comments like this one. EalingGreen can put up more than a good argument single-hand against the more articulate guys on this forum with his football knowledge .I would not argue with many things he writes even if I wanted to as I would not be able to compete with him. So I would suggest you do the same before you embarrass yourself further.

[philliyk]

You really haven't a clue, do you?

I think he (P O'Shea)is quite spot on there because on Sunday I had the misfortune of having to work & my workplace is quite close to the Sein Fein/loyalist(loyalist hate mob)protest. The majority of the hate mob were kitted out in either Rangers or mostly NI merchandise. Yes there were loads of union jacks but not one army flag(the whole point of the parade was the army - no)on show & this mob where on the hunt for trouble as they encouraged people to chuck something at the Fenién Bas****s - i had misfortune of having to walk by them. Now a work colleague who is a big NI fan said they the mob had been told not to be caught firing the first dig(stone/firework) but if anything was to happen then they had free reign to do what they want.

The great NI fan base ehh - the best non bigoted lot in europe

[SkStu]

thanks Paul...

[geysir]

KK, you leave yourself right open all the time with comments like this one. EalingGreen can put up more than a good argument single-hand against the more articulate guys on this forum with his football knowledge .I would not argue with many things he writes even if I wanted to as I would not be able to compete with him. So I would suggest you do the same before you embarrass yourself further.

It's pretty clear that NI is a mixed team, with a vast majority Loyalist/Unionist support, (Unionist as in union with Britain).
While the OWC board have a 'spot the NI shirt' thread, I doubt if the NI tops on display at aggro corner on Sunday got much of a mention

[EalingGreen]

I think he (P O'Shea)is quite spot on there because on Sunday I had the misfortune of having to work & my workplace is quite close to the Sein Fein/loyalist(loyalist hate mob)protest. The majority of the hate mob were kitted out in either Rangers or mostly NI merchandise. Yes there were loads of union jacks but not one army flag(the whole point of the parade was the army - no)on show & this mob where on the hunt for trouble as they encouraged people to chuck something at the Fenién Bas****s - i had misfortune of having to walk by them. Now a work colleague who is a big NI fan said they the mob had been told not to be caught firing the first dig(stone/firework) but if anything was to happen then they had free reign to do what they want.

The great NI fan base ehh - the best non bigoted lot in europe

So if that scummy lot you describe were e.g. wearing Burberry caps, you hold the Saville Row Tailors Association responsible? If they were drinking Buckfast, it is the Benedictine Order of Monks who are to blame? Or if they snacked on Sausage Rolls on their way to the riot, it's all the fault of Greggs the Baker?

You really don't seem to get it, do you?

If you want to see NI fans, and how they behave, go to an NI game, then you can say what we are like. I could tell you myself, but I am pretty sure you are so determined to believe otherwise, that you wouldn't take a blind bit of notice.
So instead, I shall quote you what one of your best known and most widely travelled fellow ROI fans, Gspain, has posted on this very forum:
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green"

P.S. I presume from your avatar that you are an ROI fan. Does this mean that in future, I should consider every ROI fan I meet to be a prejudiced, ill-informed idiot, who lacks either the will or the ability (or both) to understand how the big wide world really works?

[paul_oshea]

thanks Paul...

No worries SkStu!

must admit, wasn't sure that you would actually see the comment

So if that scummy lot you describe were e.g. wearing Burberry caps, you hold the Saville Row Tailors Association responsible? If they were drinking Buckfast, it is the Benedictine Order of Monks who are to blame? Or if they snacked on Sausage Rolls on their way to the riot, it's all the fault of Greggs the Baker?

You really don't seem to get it, do you?

he isn't saying its NI fans fault, he is saying they are - some at least - NI fans.

[janeymac]

So if that scummy lot you describe were e.g. wearing Burberry caps, you hold the Saville Row Tailors Association responsible? If they were drinking Buckfast, it is the Benedictine Order of Monks who are to blame? Or if they snacked on Sausage Rolls on their way to the riot, it's all the fault of Greggs the ..... etc. etc.

Your analogy is nonsense. Do you not see there is a difference between wearing a Nike tracksuit and wearing a Manchester United branded Nike tracksuit?

Are you suggesting that those guys that were filmed hanging out of the scaffolding, singing their sectarian songs, don't go to NI matches and if they do go, forget all that sectarian stuff once they go into Windsor Park?

Pull the other one.

[EalingGreen]

Your analogy is nonsense. Do you not see there is a difference between wearing a Nike tracksuit and wearing a Manchester United branded Nike tracksuit?

Are you saying that everyone who wears a Man U branded Nike tracksuit is a Man U fan? They might call themselves such, on the basis that they've watched a few games on TV in their living room in Manchester. Or in Belfast. Or New York. Or Seoul. It doesn't mean they've ever actually been to Old Trafford, though.

Are you suggesting that those guys that were filmed hanging out of the scaffolding, singing their sectarian songs, don't go to NI matches and if they do go, forget all that sectarian stuff once they go into Windsor Park?

Pull the other one.

I don't whether they do go to NI games or not. More to the point, neither do you.
But what I do know is that I go to NI games and there is no longer any of the sort of behaviour you describe, nor has there been for years.

Or do you not believe Gspain when he posted:
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green"

Time and again, when confronted by people like you, who accuse me and my fellow fans of being bigots, I quote these and similar accounts by objective eyewitnesses. Yet not one of you has the basic honesty even to acknowledge it, never mind accept it.

Then again, as Kenny Archer, chief soccer correspondent of the Irish News, and no natural friend of the NI football team, wrote after one visit to Windsor:
"Those who wish to live in the past and apply outdated labels to all Northern Ireland fans, are the real bigots" (14/09/05)

If the (Burberry) cap fits...

[third policeman]

For the record EG I dont think anyone on this site would entertain the belief that you are a bigot. You are clearly a rational, articulate and passionate NI fan. I think that you do however have a slight blind spot that prevents you seeing the extent to which the NI team has been appropriated as an emblem of hard line unionism and why this alienates potential Catholic / nationalist supporters.

Maybe overtly sectarian chanting and songs have been stamped out, but you are wrong to suggest that the current fans favourites (GSTQ and Rule Brittania) are being sung "ironically." I suggest that they are being sung because they are current fans favourites at Ibrox, and because they are unequivocal assertions of unionist identity. You argue that the antics of loyalist thugs wearing NI shirts is nothing to do with the IFA. Well I think that the IFA could do a great deal more to wrestle back ownership of its brand if it really wants to. They could do what I previously suggested and adopt a neutral anthem and flag. They could ban union flags and banners with overtly unionist and partisan slogans from Windsor Park. They could ban the singing of other obviously partisan / anthems or songs and enforce that with the same zeal that has seemingly been successful in stamping overtly sectarian chants. The reason that they will not do this is because they dont really think it needs to be done. This would alienate and antagonise too many existing NI fans, and anyway what's wrong with "our" flag and "our" anthem, this is Northern Ireland and we are part of the Uk at the end of the day. Well maybe that's fine and dandy, but then accept the fact that most nationalists will never identify with the NI team and some of them will probably not want to play for it either, and dont pretend that the IFA is somehow trailblazing a new and inclusive culture that respects and embraces the nationalist community. It does n't and because of that it is perfectly natural and inevitable that hard line loyalists should rally to the NI team as one of the last fading symbols of supremacy. As the banner said, "Our culture is not a crime" - God bless Sir David!

[EalingGreen]

For the record EG I dont think anyone on this site would entertain the belief that you are a bigot. You are clearly a rational, articulate and passionate NI fan.

Thank you. For the record, I am also someone who is sick to the back teeth of being found "guilty by association" by people who have not been to an NI game in years (if ever), but still seem to feel they are entitled to comment, even on the basis of nothing more relevant than watching TV pictures of a gang of spides at a political demonstration, in Belfast City Centre, on a Sunday morning.
Simple question: did you read the account by Gspain of his actual experience of attending Windsor?
If so, have you anything to say on this?

Anyhow, whilst I am waiting for you or any other of our detractors actually to address the fcuking point, I shall amuse myself by Googling some of the following:
1. ROI fans booing Rangers players when they represnt their National teams in Dublin;
2. ROI fans stoning NI fans as they departed Lansdowne the first time the two teams ever met;
3. ROI fans abusing the Israel team and fans over Palestine etc, when they came to Dublin (How did the thread on this forum go? "Today I felt ashamed to be Irish"?);
4. ROI fans singing "anti-Brit" songs when out in Germany;
5. ROI fans wearing Celtic tops and adding "Up the Ra" to TFOA.
That way, when you or somebody else returns with the next spectacularly misplaced piece of "whataboutery", I shall have plenty of ammunition with which to respond in kind.
Of course, my reply is likely severely to p1ss off the overwhelming majority of entirely decent ROI fans who do not engage in such actions, in fact who deplore them roundly.
But hey, why should I worry about them? After all, not only are we (NI) the only team in the entire history of football to have attracted fans whose actions disgrace us, but those are the only kind of fans we have, because we have never even attempted to clean up our act, so proud are we all in our advanced state of bigotry and denial.

I think that you do however have a slight blind spot that prevents you seeing the extent to which the NI team has been appropriated as an emblem of hard line unionism and why this alienates potential Catholic / nationalist supporters.

Maybe overtly sectarian chanting and songs have been stamped out, but you are wrong to suggest that the current fans favourites (GSTQ and Rule Brittania) are being sung "ironically." I suggest that they are being sung because they are current fans favourites at Ibrox, and because they are unequivocal assertions of unionist identity. You argue that the antics of loyalist thugs wearing NI shirts is nothing to do with the IFA. Well I think that the IFA could do a great deal more to wrestle back ownership of its brand if it really wants to. They could do what I previously suggested and adopt a neutral anthem and flag. They could ban union flags and banners with overtly unionist and partisan slogans from Windsor Park. They could ban the singing of other obviously partisan / anthems or songs and enforce that with the same zeal that has seemingly been successful in stamping overtly sectarian chants. The reason that they will not do this is because they dont really think it needs to be done. This would alienate and antagonise too many existing NI fans, and anyway what's wrong with "our" flag and "our" anthem, this is Northern Ireland and we are part of the Uk at the end of the day. Well maybe that's fine and dandy, but then accept the fact that most nationalists will never identify with the NI team and some of them will probably not want to play for it either, and dont pretend that the IFA is somehow trailblazing a new and inclusive culture that respects and embraces the nationalist community. It does n't and because of that it is perfectly natural and inevitable that hard line loyalists should rally to the NI team as one of the last fading symbols of supremacy. As the banner said, "Our culture is not a crime" - God bless Sir David!

Same old same old.

Listen, here's the deal. Why don't you attend an NI game, report back on what you experience, then we can debate what needs to be done?

I know it's a long shot, but who knows, it might even get us somewhere.

P.S. If you're looking out for Neil Lennon at the game, he'll be the wee fat ginger one in midfield, dodging the fireworks from the Rangers fans, as they take a break from barbequing Catholic babies...

[paul_oshea]

Eg, Ill agree with all of the above points, if you agree with the points raised earlier, howse that for a comrpromise?! Ye(the all inclusive before you get on your high donkey) lads up north love compromise after all

[geysir]

Lads you'll bankrupt the OWC fightback fund, I don't know how much longer they can afford to retain the services of EG.

[janeymac]

Are you saying that everyone who wears a Man U branded Nike tracksuit is a Man U fan? They might call themselves such, on the basis that they've watched a few games on TV in their living room in Manchester. Or in Belfast. Or New York. Or Seoul. It doesn't mean they've ever actually been to Old Trafford, though.

I don't whether they do go to NI games or not. More to the point, neither do you.
But what I do know is that I go to NI games and there is no longer any of the sort of behaviour you describe, nor has there been for years.

I'm not making any comment about 'fanship' or degrees of 'fanship'. I'm making a point that if you wear the shirt of Liverpool, Man United, Linfield, Barcelona, Shamrock Rovers, Northern Ireland or the ROI you are attaching yourself to that particular 'tribe'/'family' which has particular values that the shirt wearers identify with (uniform) and by wearing them, they can identify each other when they 'go to war' and not get caught in 'friendly fire'. From what I saw, those guys wearing the NI shirts weren't there to welcome home the troops, but rather use the opportunity to chant sectarian songs, and generally make a nuisance of themselves. The same applies to the Celtic shirt wearing Dublin langers that attacked the 'Love Ulster' parade. They didn't do the image of Celtic any good as it would put off most normal people from ever wanting to go to a match in case you might end up sitting near any of those thugs.

I suppose we should be grateful that they chose not to wear their ROI shirts! Or maybe, they know that most ROI fans wouldn't stand for that kind of carryone, although I'm sure we have a fairly large number of fans who would fall into the sectarian bigot category.

Or do you not believe Gspain when he posted:
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green"

Time and again, when confronted by people like you, who accuse me and my fellow fans of being bigots, I quote these and similar accounts by objective eyewitnesses. Yet not one of you has the basic honesty even to acknowledge it, never mind accept it.

Then again, as Kenny Archer, chief soccer correspondent of the Irish News, and no natural friend of the NI football team, wrote after one visit to Windsor:
"Those who wish to live in the past and apply outdated labels to all Northern Ireland fans, are the real bigots" (14/09/05)

If the (Burberry) cap fits...

What do you mean, people like me? I'm not judging whether you are a bigot or not (though, for the record, I'd second what third policeman has written in his post above).

Most non-unionist*/loyalist people would be put off attending a NI match after viewing that last week.

*There is probably a fair few unionists who would be put off going to Windsor Park to support NI after viewing that!

[gspain]

I think people should go to Windsor Park and make their own mind up.

I think you'd be pleasantly surprised. You'd see a lot more green, a lot more noise and a lot more passion than our home support at the moment. Away from home we are probably on a par noisewise.

The NI fans received a UEFA award in 2006 for their support.

They had a problem with sectarianism and have taken steps and made huge strides to eradicate it. Ironically many of the uberprods now support England.

Picking holes and slagging off the efforts of other fans does nothing to help our reputation either.

[paul_oshea]

KK, you leave yourself right open all the time with comments like this one. EalingGreen can put up more than a good argument single-hand against the more articulate guys on this forum with his football knowledge .I would not argue with many things he writes even if I wanted to as I would not be able to compete with him. So I would suggest you do the same before you embarrass yourself further.

He has plenty of experience

[Stuttgart88]

For what it's worth, anything I've seen on TV would back GSpain up. It looks like a bunch of lads in green shirts enjoying some of the good results they've been getting.

The 2-2 draw in Cardiff was when I first noticed that there seemed to have been a sea-change.

[EalingGreen]

From what I saw, those guys wearing the NI shirts weren't there to welcome home the troops, but rather use the opportunity to chant sectarian songs, and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

I don't know how many of those lowlifes were at the Parade, but even the highest estimate by people whose judgement I trust, was that we are talking maybe a hundred, or two hundred (max).
That was out of an estimated 30,000 "genuine" well-wishers, whose whole behaviour, appearance and demeanour was entirely acceptable. I know for a fact that these 30,000 included many genuine, regular NI fans, some of whom may have worn NI gear, most of whom will not. Anyhow, since they weren't kicking up a row, these people were entirely ignored by the media. Consequently, they were also entirely ignored by our detractors, on this forum and others.

The same applies to the Celtic shirt wearing Dublin langers that attacked the 'Love Ulster' parade. They didn't do the image of Celtic any good as it would put off most normal people from ever wanting to go to a match in case you might end up sitting near any of those thugs.

Which is exactly my point. Celtic FC can hardly be blamed for what happened in Dublin, so can someone please tell me what the IFA is supposed to do about spides in NI gear, when they try to cause trouble in Belfast City Centre on a Sunday morning?
Obviously the IFA are responsible for not encouraging such behaviour (they don't) and also for effectively preventing/punishing such behaviour at NI matches (they do).

Most non-unionist*/loyalist people would be put off attending a NI match after viewing that last week.

*There is probably a fair few unionists who would be put off going to Windsor Park to support NI after viewing that!

Of course people, from all backgrounds, will be deterred from attending NI matches if they fear that they will be seated alongside thugs like those.
And I understand that many ordinary people, who gets their information from the media, do think like that.
But there is no excuse for people who know a bit about football generally, to fall for the prejudiced, outdated and often propagandist distortions which are frequently repeated about Windsor etc.
Still less when they are regular followers of teams which themselves suffer occasionally from the antics of a hooligan minority.
And less again when they have the opportunity to go and see for themselves, but decline to do so.
Worst of all is when these people ignore point blank testimony from impeccable sources such as Gspain*, and still trot out the same, tired old "whataboutery".

The facts are simple. We used to have a serious problem, partly because too many of us ignored it. However, we are now addressing that problem on a number of levels, so that the actual experience of following NI has improved almost beyond measure. That is not to say that the problems have been eradicated completely, but they are now no worse than comparable teams; in fact the whole atmosphere is a hell of a sight better than most. (And that's not me saying so, but any number of objective, qualified observers).
Consequently, no-one who may be interested in watching NI need be in any way made to feel threatened or excluded by reason of race, religion, colour or disability etc.
In fact, the only problem is that due to the Block Booking scheme - which played no small part in excluding the scumbags, btw - it is rarely possible for such people actually to get tickets.
Which means the best eyewitnesses to the changes which have occurred in recent years are long-term fans, who stuck with the team through thick and thin and renewed their Bookings accordingly.
And when such people try to tell it like it is, they don't get believed, on the basis: "Ah, well, you would say that, wouldn't you?"

But hey, even as we speak, some spides somewhere in Belfast are probably starting their regular weekend riot/joyride/glue-sniffing early, and what do you know, some of them might even be wearing NI gear?

That's it. Ban the team and close the ground, for it's all the fault of themmuns in the IFA. Again.


* - Or do none of our critics possess the basic integrity to come out and say: "Fair enough, EG, maybe it's not now anything like it was in the bad old days"?

[geysir]

It's true, it's nothing like it was in the bad old days.

[lopez]

For the record EG I dont think anyone on this site would entertain the belief that you are a bigot.

I don't know who you think you're speaking for, but it isn't for me.

...Simple question: did you read the account by Gspain of his actual experience of attending Windsor?
If so, have you anything to say on this?

I don't need you or GSpain to wax lyrical about the Windsor Park experience. I visited it in June 2003 for the Spain game. The positives were a good continuous support. The negatives were much the same as the previous visit which is this: a culture which does little to make it confortable for 45% of the O6C population to attend. Here they are: GSTQ. GSTQ interrupted by NS. Scarves with a Dutch homosexual on horseback. That's without going into Rangers shirts and Union Rags. While NI were playing a country with probably the highest percentage per head of baptised Catholics in the world, I'd love to see whether the 'friendly' WP experience would be the same had we turned up. Oh yes, friendly neighbourly rivalry not withstanding.

Anyhow, whilst I am waiting for you or any other of our detractors actually to address the fcuking point, I shall amuse myself by Googling some of the following:
1. ROI fans booing Rangers players when they represnt their National teams in Dublin;

I'd boo anyone connected with any team that has a history of discrimination against the Irish. And before you ask, I couldn't give a f*ck about Celtic.

2. ROI fans stoning NI fans as they departed Lansdowne the first time the two teams ever met;

LOL. Now I know from a wee Ballymena mate of mine it wasn't all one sided that day. P*ss off and grow up!

3. ROI fans abusing the Israel team and fans over Palestine etc, when they came to Dublin (How did the thread on this forum go? "Today I felt ashamed to be Irish"?);

More b*llsh*te!

4. ROI fans singing "anti-Brit" songs when out in Germany;

NI fans singing anti-Catholic songs in Cardiff anyone?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3Divl_I-pyg

5. ROI fans wearing Celtic tops and adding "Up the Ra" to TFOA.

Yet to hear the one of the 'up the ra' at Ireland games. Maybe youtube have it in the archive.

[paul_oshea]

whose Darren NISC?!