Another Nordie thread

[EalingGreen]

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke
one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted.
In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland.
I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue.
It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go.

I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker?

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.

[ifk101]

Double Standards if ever there were.

The FAI asserts its right to pick any player born anywhere on the island. Fine. Yet it flies a flag and plays an Anthem with which a significant minority (1 million) does not identify.

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.

Therefore, if the FAI truly wants to be accessible to everyone in Ireland, this must mean adopting a neutral flag and anthem, plus the suppression of all divisive behaviour (e.g. booing of Rangers players, "Up the Ra" during FOA, "Stand Up if you hate the Brits" etc) by their fans.

The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.

Otherwise, if they are not prepared to do so, then they are clearly not genuinely interested in attracting support from every Irish person, presumably because their definition of "Irishness" is essentially a political one.

Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time.

Are you familiar with the phrase "Bloody Hypocrites"?

Familiar with the phrase you can't teach an old dog new tricks. You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.

[ifk101]

Which would, of course, explain why the FAI operates a clear policy of only approaching players from one community in NI, a policy the effect of which is to reinforce the sectarian divide in Ireland, not break it down.

Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

[seanfhear]

I posted a clip which included highlights from the game in question. Amongst these was a fingertip save by Jennings from a "Hoddle Special" and an equally wondrous save by him where he tipped a Kerry Dixon effort over the bar. The Harlem Globetrotters could not have contrived such a conjuring trick.

Plus you have completely ignored the victory which England had previously achieved in Belfast, which meant that in order to achieve second place in the Group, NI needn't not only a draw at Wembley, but victories home and away against the Romania of Georgie Hagi etc.

Moreover, you overlook the fact that having already qualified, the England players will have been desperate to book their place in the squad for Mexico. Are you really contending that Kerry Dixon would deliberately miss chances for the sake of the NI team, when the battle for the centre forward spot in the England team was between him and Gary Lineker?

There is no point in arguing with you on this. I said before that anyone who professes to know anything about football and genuinely believes that this game was a fix, must be an idiot.

I don't believe you to be an idiot. Sadly, it is worse than that; by your persisting with your conspiracy theory, even in the face of all the evidence, I can only conclude that you are prejudiced, either against the English, the Northern Irish, or both.

Ealing green I fear you protest too much.
Don't take it so seriously its only another man's opinion about some football games.
I will just ignore the personal abuse(oops)
Three games three right results for the teams that needed to qualify including the republic of Ireland.
If I am winding you up I do not mean to.I think you might be winding yourself up.
Northern did well in the other matches and did deserve to qualify but if you could find a neutral(on these boards) I believe they would be a bit suspicious of the result always working out.

On another point I would say that the present NI team would be as good (or nearly)as the team that qualified in 82/86 and I wonder does this show that it is harder to qualify for tournaments now

[Gather round]

You might as well have shoved your degree because IMO you will never again see the loyalist team in the World Cup finals

Given that we qualified three times when it was difficult, I reckon we've a decent chance of doing so again when it becomes easier (ie with 24 Euro places to scrap for). And maybe 48 in the WC?

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

Almost all fans wear green; most banners feature the red hand. Sadly, despite searching high and low through the Maribor stadium, I couldn't see a single tricolor to reassure TP.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yLZQaL7eS3s

I would respectfully suggest that you are guilty of much greater naivity if you think that the behaviour of your supporters is in any way welcoming and inclusive. Never mind the grass roots initiatives, if you are in any way serious about attracting more nationalists to the NI team, get yourselves a neutral flag, a neutral anthem and enforce a ban on any emblems, flag, chants and songs that are explicitly partisan. If that is beyond you then maybe we should have an All Ireland team with neutral flag and anthem as the only means of banishing divisive and sectarian posturing at what should be sporting events

I would respectfully suggest that you stop stirring the sh*t. We're not interested in an all-Ireland team nor scratching anyone else's team. Nobody is posturing bar you and some other comedians on this thread. Most of whom clearly haven't been near an NI game in years, if ever. Even if their mammy knows Pat Jennings and their anonymous mate's a journalist.

Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out

Thanks for your post, the content of which has been noted. Got a problem with "lassies"?

Ealing I watched the england /northern ireland game and in my opinion kerry dixon did a good job of missing those chances and if by some fluke one of them had gone in I have no doubt NI would have got(been given)an equaliser.I think that neutrals are just a little bit less biased when commentating on how some of these games are conducted. In the three games that we have disscussed the right result was achieved for the home nation or republic of Ireland. I think that is as near to scientific proof as we are going to get on this issue. It would be interesting to look at bookies odds on the teams that needed the result as this might also give an insight as to how the bookies thought these matches were going to go and how they did go

Ha ha. Are you on drugs? Even by the obsessive, wind-up standards on this thread, really...

[EalingGreen]

I could see only one green banner being displayed by NI supporters during the Slovenia game but plenty of Union Flags and Red Hand of Ulster emblems (many bearing explicitly unionist slogans)

Really? And who were this lot in Maribor? Nigerians? You seem to misunderstand the difference between "Loyal" - as in "Loyal Supporters", a chant heard wherever football fans gather - and "Loyalist". The below picture is only one half of the NI tribune (I couldn't get a clear photo of the other end), but I see all sorts of banners there, with the overall impression of the fans themselves being a Sea of Green...
http://www.rtvslo.si/sport/upload/sport/tribuna1_1.jpg

[EalingGreen]

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.



The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.



Like I said the FAI represents the country of Ireland. The fact that the FAI can pick players born in NI does not diverge from the fact that it represents the country of Ireland.



The FIFA eligibility issue was only recently resolved. Give the FAI time.

"Ireland", "island", "country", "national" etc - it's all semantic flim-flam.

The simple fact is that as far as the Irish Government is concerned, anyone born anywhere in Ireland is entitled to citizenship/Passport. Which the FAI then uses as the pretext for eligibility for the ROI side - which its supporters now assure us is a de facto All-Ireland side.

Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.

You see the FAI as the root of evil attached to NI football, an opinion that has been long ingrained in your mind.

Where did I ever apply the epithet "evil" (or anything like it) to the FAI? I think they've got a cheek, granted, but that's someway short of labelling them "satanic" etc.

[EalingGreen]

Clear policy? Alan Kernaghan?

First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.

[paul_oshea]

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

BTW, seanfhear, actuary is not a case of thought, but statistics, and its certainly not based on 3 games only. We got a draw, which wasn't a right result at the time, only in the end after the Denmark game was it "the right result". I can't say about the other games as I was too young but to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond beleif, perhaps and this is perhaps, it came about by certain individuals but thats the closest you could realistically claim.

[seanfhear]

First, Kernaghan was born in England, not NI.

Second, he was not wanted (stupidly, imo) by the IFA.

Third, in his desire to play international football, he is as likely to have approached the FAI as the other way round.

My point was that the evidence shows the FAI only approaches youngsters from the Nationalist community in NI, not from the Unionist community.

And the net effect of such a clearly discriminatory (true sense of the word)policy must be to reinforce further the divisions on this island, especially in NI.

In my opinion, this is disgraceful.

You have left a bit of an open door here Ealing Green and I might as well walk in.
I hearby invite all players from whatever backround to avail of the present ruling from FIFA to exercise their right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they choose to do so.All are welcome.
My own preference is for a united Ireland team but nobody can have it all for the moment at any rate.

[geysir]

The FAI picks players that are eligible to represent the football team of Ireland, the country. The team represents the country of Ireland, its national anthem, its national flag and its people.

....The FAI represents the country of Ireland, not the island of Ireland. It can pick players from the whole of the island of Ireland - thanks to the IFA's initiatives, and FIFA's ruling.

That's about it.
Looks like some NI soccer fans in the 6 counties have still got a lot of growing up to do.

FIFA is satisfied with the full Irish nationality automatically given at the time of birth to people born in the 6 counties.
That same 100% Irish nationality has already been accepted by the people of NI in a plebiscite and moved into NI constitution, a formal recognition that you can be born in the 6 counties and only regard yourself as 100% Irish.

Long before the FAI selected any NI born youngsters, as far back as when research was first done, the vast majority of NI Nationalists (who are soccer fans), identify first with the Republic. This identity was not in the least affected, one way or the other, by the selection of any number of nationalists on the NI team.

Is there one fan in the Republic who gives the slightest whohaw what religion Darron Gibson or Marc Wilson has?
While on the OWC board it caused some deal of consternation, how could Marc Wilson declare for the Republic? look where he grew up - he must have been a protestant etc etc.

[Not Brazil]

My own preference is for a united Ireland team

Unlucky.

[EalingGreen]

EG, for those that bring union jacks and display them, lets say some nationalist supporters brought a tri-colour, would you object to it being hung along with, and beside those Union jacks?

Well I honestly can't imagine why any NI fan should want to bring a Tricolour to an NI match (at least where the ROI weren't the opposition).
If it were meant as a provocation, then i would condemn it, just as I have condemned the idiot who brought a King Billy flag to an NI game on one occasion, or those ROI fans who brought Palestinian flags to Lansdowne for the visit of Israel.
If, however, it were brought by someone who was genuine enough in his motives, but somewhat confused(!), it should be tolerated.
Anyhow, my point is that NI fans tend to bring four types of flag to NI games.
1. (Specially commissioned) Supporters' Club flags;
2. Green and White, or IFA, flags;
3. NI flags;
4. Union Flags.
As regards numbers, I would estimate that Union flags are by some way the fewest (and decreasing?). Personally, I think them inappropriate for a number of reasons, although technically the Union Flag is the official flag of NI.
As for NI flags, though no longer possessing official status, this is the flag which FIFA and UEFA both use, and it is uniquely Northern Irish. Of course, I accept it is also one flown e.g. by Loyalist paramilitaries etc, but that should not be an excuse for us not to use it (imo). Otherwise, the ROI should not use the Tricolour, since that is used by Republican Paramilitaries, or England fans should not fly the Cross of St.George, since Combat 18 etc fly that one.
Anyhow, I would estimate the first two categories outnumber the third, which far outnumbers the fourth. Which, combined with the ubiquitous wearing of green (home) and white (away) replica tops, creates the overwheming impression of a Sea of Green (and White) wherever we go.

BTW, seanfhear, actuary is not a case of thought, but statistics, and its certainly not based on 3 games only. We got a draw, which wasn't a right result at the time, only in the end after the Denmark game was it "the right result". I can't say about the other games as I was too young but to try and suggest that the right result was agreed on and executed is beyond beleif, perhaps and this is perhaps, it came about by certain individuals but thats the closest you could realistically claim.

Glad to see you've not lost your senses completely, Paul!

Something else which the conspiracy theorists overlook is the fact that if it ever got out that the English FA had connived in fixing the result, they (and NI) would have been thrown out of the Finals and heavily fined, suspended etc.
Indeed, such a disclosure would be used as an excuse by those who resent the UK having 4 separate teams to insist on a single UK team in future (and with good reason, i'd have to admit)
Or if it had been individual England players who fixed it by going easy (e.g. Kerry Dixon deliberately missing sitters), not only would they have been doing harm in the eyes of the manager to their chances of getting picked in the World Cup itself, but if it emerged that they had so cheated, that would have been the end of their football career - both country and club.
Does anyone credibly believe that the likes of Glenn Hoddle would take such a risk, on behalf of e.g. Pat Jennings?

[EalingGreen]

You have left a bit of an open door here Ealing Green and I might as well walk in.
I hearby invite all players from whatever backround to avail of the present ruling from FIFA to exercise their right to play for the Republic of Ireland if they choose to do so.All are welcome.

Although I personally regret that FIFA tolerates such a situation, you must be entitled to make such an invitation. However, whilst the FAI insists on only using the emblems and symbols of one of the two main communities on this island, also only one of the two political jurisdictions, then it will never be acceptable to a sizeable minority of the very same Irish people it purports to attract.
Unless, of course, the FAI is not actually interested in attracting those Irish people from the Unionist community on the island, in which case that is a disgracefully prejudiced and hypocritical attitude to take.

My own preference is for a united Ireland team but nobody can have it all for the moment at any rate.

You could have it tomorrow if the FAI realised the error of its ways, accepted they were misguided to split back in 1921, and asked to be readmitted to the IRISH Football Association ("Original and Best"). All are welcome.

For myself, unlike a seemingly large percentage of ROI fans, I am not so unhappy with, or lukewarm about, my international team that I would want it to disappear, whether that be into a United Ireland team or a United Kingdom team (or a United Nations team, for that matter)

[EalingGreen]

That's about it.
Looks like some NI soccer fans in the 6 counties have still got a lot of growing up to do... ...you can be born in the 6 counties and only regard yourself as 100% Irish.

Aside from the fact that it is hardly very grown up to insist on typing out "the 6 counties" when NI is both quicker and more accurate, it is you whose understanding is somewhat limited. For you see, opting to play for the NI team does not make someone more British/less Irish, or automatically a Unionist/no longer a Nationalist.
Gerry Armstrong, for instance, was brought up on the Falls, with a Nationalist background. As a boy, he was proud to represent with distinction his local GAA club when they played at Croke Park under the Tricolour, to the sound of the SS etc.
Later as an adult, he was equally proud to represent NI with similar distinction, under the NI flag and anthem.
Certainly, when he scored the winner the first time NI played the ROI in his home city, I didn't sense any less joy in his celebrations than when e.g. he scored the winner over Spain in Valencia in 1982!
He had no problem in maintaining a sense of perspective over such matters, nor did any of his teammates, managers, supporters etc, so why cannot everyone else?
In the end, if other people insist on ascribing overriding political significance to a sportsman representing his own wee patch of land in a sporting challenge against someone elses patch, then that is their problem, not the sportsman's.
P.S. I am Irish and I daresay as Irish as you - regardless of our respective political affiliations. This is because I was born in Northern IRELAND. As it happens, my maternal grandparents were both born in what is now the Irish Republic. However, had I been good enough, there is no question of which of the two Associations for which I was eligible I would have preferred to represent: it would have had to have been that in whose jurisdiction I was born and brought up. Simple, really. (Of course, in doing so I would have had to tolerate standing up for GSTQ before NI games, but I would have found this no greater hardship e.g. than when I stood up for the Soldiers Song at Lansdowne before Ireland rugby games)

Long before the FAI selected any NI born youngsters, as far back as when research was first done, the vast majority of NI Nationalists (who are soccer fans), identify first with the Republic. This identity was not in the least affected, one way or the other, by the selection of any number of nationalists on the NI team.

I don't know when this research you refer to was first conducted, but I doubt whether it predated the first rolling of Big Jack's Bandwagon. In which case it is hardly a definitive guide to the attitude of NI nationalists towards the NI team. After all, it would postdate 65 (arguably 106) years of the actual experience of supporting the NI team. These are years which, inter alia, include the appointment of Nationalist/Catholics as President of the IFA, or manager or trainer or captain of the NI team etc, all factors which would have encouraged Nationalists to support, as well as participate in, the team - as I well remember from my own direct experience.
It would also postdate e.g. the period in the 60's/70's when the ROI went six years without a home win, a time when I don't recall anyone in NI giving a flying fcuk about football south of the border...
P.S. I don't know when you imagine the FAI first selected NI born players, but you might Google "Tommy Donnelly" or "Mick Hoy", for example. Or any of the number of NI-born players who represented both Associations. You might even further your education by researching those ROI-born players who agreed to represent the IFA - sometimes even in preference to the FAI. Of course, these were all before 1950, when both Associations came to a Gentleman's Agreement not to pick players born in each other's jurisdiction. So while you're at it, you might then Google "Gentleman's Agreement" and forward your findings to the fine Gentlemen (and Ladies) of the FAI...

Is there one fan in the Republic who gives the slightest whohaw what religion Darron Gibson or Marc Wilson has?
While on the OWC board it caused some deal of consternation, how could Marc Wilson declare for the Republic? look where he grew up - he must have been a protestant etc etc.

Re Gibson, whilst I regret the precedent he represents, I have no practical regrets whatever that he is no longer available to us, not least since at the last count, we now have at least 8 midfielders (6 of them central midfielders) whom I would pick before him.
As for Marc Wilson, I have seen it written that he is Protestant. That said, he was brought up in Aghagallon, which is apparently 96.6% Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aghagallon )
Either way, I couldn't give a flying one what religion he is. Moreover, I don't care that he represents the ROI, for two reasons. First, it was he who approached the FAI, not the other way round, following a falling out by him with the IFA. And if he doesn't want to play for us...
Second, I am led to believe by a seemingly reliable source that one of Wilson's grandfathers is from Dublin.
You're welcome to him.

[third policeman]

"
Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.
.

Ingenious argument EG but I can think of one crucial difference. The people that are being "excluded" by the national emblems of the ROI team dont actually live in the ROI and dont identify with its politics or culture (Although it could be argued that their tradition is represented fairly prominently on its national flag). The people who are excluded by the overtly unionist iconography that surrounds the NI team are your neighbours and fellow citizens.

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI. I also think its lame to suggest that if the politicians cannot manage it, then its not up to football to resolve this. Football is potentially one of the things that could unite people in NI and transcend historic communal loyalties. It's just sad that the IFA and evidently most NI fans either cannot grasp this.

PS Yes I do choose to take your testimony about the inclusiveness of the culture at NI games with a pinch of salt, because it conflicts with the evidence of someone who I have known for many years and whose profession requires him to be objective and accurate.

[ifk101]

Yet the flags, anthems and emblems for that side do not include or represent one million Irish people. Therefore, if you urge that the IFA should adopt "neutral" emblems etc, on the basis that the present ones do not include or represent everyone in NI, then you should do the same, so as to include everyone in Ireland (i.e. the country, nation, island etc, or however you wish to term it).

If not, then it must be clear by the reasoning you apply to the IFA/NI, that you are not "interested" in attracting support from everyone within your country, thereby making you prejudiced and hypocritical.

And what I wrote was

EG - the onus is on the IFA to make the NI football team more accessible for everyone in NI as a large minority of the population does not identify with the team. Whether this means adopting a neutral flag/ a neutral anthem/ neutral party tunes/ neutral tolerable behaviour it's up to you wee lassies to sort out.

Where exactly am I urging the IFA to "adopt" neutral anything?

Prejudiced and hyprocritical

Your opinion is so coloured that you are assuming and reading things that aren't there.

[EalingGreen]

Ingenious argument EG but I can think of one crucial difference. The people that are being "excluded" by the national emblems of the ROI team dont actually live in the ROI and dont identify with its politics or culture (Although it could be argued that their tradition is represented fairly prominently on its national flag). The people who are excluded by the overtly unionist iconography that surrounds the NI team are your neighbours and fellow citizens.

Straw Man. It is not for the people of NI - Nationalist or Unionist - to dictate to the FAI what emblems it may/should use, only the FAI can/may do so.
And if the FAI is going to exploit the Irish Government's Nationality provisions for the purposes of footballing eligibility, neither can any of us stop them doing so, even in a manner which discriminates (proper sense of the word) in both practice and imagery in favour of Nationalists from NI and against Unionists. (Even though I think it disgraceful, since it is effectively creating a sort of "sporting Apartheid" in NI).

My point, however, is that any supporter of the ROI team who points the finger at NI for employing partisan symbols and images etc is being a prize hypocrite.

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI.

I think part of the problem here is one of terminology. When you (and others) say "neutral", I think you mean non-partisan.
I do not see why the NI team should use "neutral" imagery (e.g. the flag of FIFA, or the United Nations etc), when no other of the 208 FIFA Members are required to do so.
As for the fact that out of political considerations, a section of the NI population doesn't not like the NI symbols which we currently employ, then that is hardly anything unique. Many countries have a minority (e.g. Spanish Basques or Catalans) which don't like the nation which they live in. However, I don't hear anyone demanding that the Spanish FA e.g. cease using the Spanish flag because it has a Crown on it.

If there was an All Ireland team then I would certainly expect its emblems and anthems to be neutral and inclusive. It's sad that you cannot manage to do this with respect to the obviously divided community in NI.

Any all-Ireland team should be non-partisan (imo), since it would be representing two jurisdictions ("parts") of the island. I think that goes pretty much without saying - though the IRFU has recently managed to ignore that.
No matter, there is not an all-Ireland football team, there is not going to be one in the foreseeable future (imo), so I fail to see what such a hypothetical example adds to the debate.
Btw, I also think it sad that many Nationalists in NI cannot set aside their political prejudices when it comes to their choice of football team, now that there is no effective barrier to anyone joining in in support of the team. By the same token, I find it highly disappointing that certain Loyalists cannot do so, either, when they prefer to follow England, on account of the NI team not being "British" enough for them...
Anyhow, you cannot force people; just as it is their choice, it is also their loss...

I also think its lame to suggest that if the politicians cannot manage it, then its not up to football to resolve this. Football is potentially one of the things that could unite people in NI and transcend historic communal loyalties. It's just sad that the IFA and evidently most NI fans either cannot grasp this.

Let's be honest about this. If the flag and anthem were changed, what barriers (if any) would remain to prevent NI Nationalists supporting NI?
And while you're pondering this, let me state my views on these factors. I have long wanted to see GSTQ replaced, essentially for two reasons. First, it is the Anthem of the UK, but we are not a UK team. Therefore I would like it replaced by something like Danny Boy - not because such a tune is "neutral", or even "non-partisan" (though it is both), but rather because it is distinctively "Norn Iron". Second, because it is a dreary and uninspiring dirge (imo), with no reference to football or NI.
As for the flag, do you accept that NI has, like every other FIFA Member, to have its own flag? If so, the "proper" (official) flag would have to be the Union Flag. Yet I do not support that, since like GSTQ, it is not distinctively "Norn Iron". Therefore, that leaves us with the NI flag.
Now I have no special thoughts on that flag either way. Indeed, if our political representatives were to agree to a new flag for NI, then I would have no problem in adopting whatever they came up with.
In the meantime, however, we are left with what we have. and as I always say to anyone who doesn't like it: "Don't fly it, then - just wave a green and white flag, if you must.
But on this subject, generally, I will make two points. First, I do not see why a mere flag and a 90 second Anthem should deter anyone from supporting NI, if they really want to. After all, when i used to go to Lansdowne to follow the Ireland rugby team, it was no great hardship that they played the SS (twice!) and waved Tricolours on all sides of me. Big Deal.
Second, for some (many?) Nationalists in NI, no team which calls itself "Northern Ireland" will ever be acceptable, even if they were all to play in Green shirts, White shorts and Oranges socks, all wear Gerry Adams masks and all stop play to stand for "Sean South of Garryowen" every five minutes.
In the end, we are the Northern Ireland team, and so long as there is nothing offensive or discriminatory (correct sense) in our practices and procedures, we should not have to apologise for that. People must decide for themselves whether they join in with us or not - all who do so are welcome.

PS Yes I do choose to take your testimony about the inclusiveness of the culture at NI games with a pinch of salt, because it conflicts with the evidence of someone who I have known for many years and whose profession requires him to be objective and accurate.

Ah, the old "(unnamed) mate argument".
Listen, you don't have to take my word for it over his (though I'd be interested to know whether he his experience dates as far back as my own).
Instead, you only have to take the testimony of one of your own fellow ROI fans, Gspain, when he wrote:
"I been to 2 NI home games in recent years - Azerbaijan 05 and Spain 06. The atmosphere was superb even for Azerbaijan.
The sectarian chants and songs from 1993 (Billy Boys, Sash, FTP) etc are gone .
The other thing that has changed completely is the colour. Many did not wear colours in the late 80's/early 90's and those that did wore red/white and blue. Now virtually everyone is in green.
GSTQ is played beforehand but if it is really that offensive to stand for it you can always disappear to the toilet for a couple of minutes or arrive late."
Or if that's not good enough for you, why not accept the testimony, commendations and awards etc of FIFA, UEFA, the City of Brussels, the NI Community Relations Council, SARI, the Strathclyde Police etc etc etc.
No?
OK, well here's an even better one. You have stated that you have a source for tickets at the IFA. Why not take him/her up on that and go to a game yourself?
Or are you afraid that the evidence of your own eyes and ears would contradict what you appear to believe to date?

[EalingGreen]

And what I wrote was



Where exactly am I urging the IFA to "adopt" neutral anything?

Prejudiced and hyprocritical

Your opinion is so coloured that you are assuming and reading things that aren't there.

What I posted was "if" (you are urging etc).
This followed your bringing up the topic of neutral symbols etc.
I do not propose any "neutral" symbols etc, for any National team.

Anyhow, are that the best nail you can hang me on from what I've posted? If so, I think I must be doing OK.

Unless, of course, you're not doing very well...

[seanfhear]

[QUOTE]
Y

ou could have it tomorrow if the FAI realised the error of its ways, accepted they were misguided to split back in 1921, and asked to be readmitted to the IRISH Football Association ("Original and Best"). All are welcome.

I do actually agree with you on that point and the FAI should not have broken away.As they were the ones that did break away they should admit that it was a mistake and ask for the re-unification of the two FAs