Another Nordie thread

[Wolfie]

Agree that there is an awful lot more than "healthy rivalry" in the discourse between RoI and NI fans, and to be fair to EG its far from one-sided.

We're quite indifferent to NI's results as opposed to their self conscious "look at how crap the Republic are playing. Yipee!!"

[third policeman]

Nice try, Third. Let's defuse the row about an all-Ireland team by, er having one? I don't think so.

You could equally have suggested a joint side with England- against whose fans I see plenty of antagonism on this board. Imagine, having Mikey Owen to come on when Keane and Doyle get tired

Not sure that your analogy quite works, but its probably not helpful to spell out why. Just thought EG might have a view on this one. I think the Celtic Cup is a waste of time as a competition, using it an an exercise in post-GFA cross-community reconcilliation seemed like its only conceivable justification.

[EalingGreen]

my issue is that it's just symptomatic of what I'd consider to be an obsession with the Irish team and its supporters that you'd go to the trouble!!

Yes, I am "obsessed", but only with one of the Irish teams; as regards the other Irish team, I merely take a neighbourly interest.

There's more at play than just healthy rivalry here

Not for me, there's not.

Listen, it was a joke. And everyone else, whether amused, annoyed or indifferent, read it and carried on. Whereas only you were seemingly so moved as to "go to the trouble" of responding ("observing"?).

Twice.

Edit: I see it's three "observations" now. Obsessive? Moi?

[EalingGreen]

Not sure that your analogy quite works, but its probably not helpful to spell out why. Just thought EG might have a view on this one. I think the Celtic Cup is a waste of time as a competition, using it an an exercise in post-GFA cross-community reconcilliation seemed like its only conceivable justification.

No offence, tp, but I find your reasoning bizarre. The overwhelming majority of NI fans have no desire to see their National team disappear, whether into an all-Ireland team, or into an all-UK team.

There is, however, an all-Ireland lobby which would see this happen. Why, therefore, would any of us be happy to see a prototype all-Ireland team set up, even for the purposes of this tournament?

If anything, such an idea would only further antagonise the NI support, especially those whose objections are strongly political as well as footballing.

Besides, a three team tournament isn't going to amount to much, is it?

P.S. You may see no justification for this tournament - and you may well be right, though I personally would beg to differ - but the four Associations must see some merit in it (if only financial).

[Traps Cat]

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;1032622][QUOTE=OwlsFan;1032420] Oh the joy of that Alan McLoughlin goal and Billy Bigot getting his come uppance.[/QUOTE]If you are referring to Billy Bingham, then you couldn't be more wrong. I think this comes from the oft-repeated myth that Bingham encouraged the fans in singing sectarian songs at this game. Whilst such songs were sung by a section of the crowd at times, I was at the game and can assure you that he did no such thing. During a period of the game when we were in the ascendancy, he stepped to the side of the pitch to roar on both his own players and the fans. However, I am pretty certain we were singing "One Team in Ireland" at the time.

Think it was the fact that Billy Bingham was doing a mock "Royal Wave" to the crowd that gave most people the idea he was stirring.Anyway, Alan Mclaughlin sent us to the world cup and Billy went home and practiced his wave.

[third policeman]

[quote=EalingGreen;1034266]No offence, tp, but I find your reasoning bizarre. The overwhelming majority of NI fans have no desire to see their National team disappear, whether into an all-Ireland team, or into an all-UK team.


Looks like there will be an all UK team competing in the next Olympic competition. How is this playing with NI fans?

I agree that the overwhelming majority of NI fans have no desire to see their team disappear, but the problem for NI is that it seems that its fan base has effectively diminished to the point where it appeals almost exclusively to one section of the population. The majority of current fans might not see this is a problem (a small element might actually prefer it that way), but its sad that football is becoming polarised in this way. Its also disingenuous for you to pretend that there isn't a problem.

My mother is from the North and Pat Jennings is a family friend. You are right that the NI team once had a much bigger cross community support, ironically when the political situation was worse than it is now. You are also right about Billy Bingham. his achievements with the 82 and 86 teams were miraculous in both footballing and political terms. I grew up supporting both Irish teams, but the NI team has become very firmly identified with one tradition and one set of loyalties. If it is really going to reclaim cross community support then some sort of imaginative gesture is needed. Maybe this isn't it, but to reject it on the basis that the "overwhelming majority of NI fans dont want to see their team disappear" sounds a little bit too much like an "Ulster says no" response.

[Fergie's Son]

EG:

I enjoy your posts. I don't agree with 99.9% of what you post but I appreciate and admire the clarity and thought that goes into each post.

I was not at the match in 1994. I was, however, watching it on the TV and I recall Bingham actually turning to the crowd and inciting them. I think the issue was the given the climate it may have been an inoportune gesture.

[EalingGreen]

Think it was the fact that Billy Bingham was doing a mock "Royal Wave" to the crowd that gave most people the idea he was stirring.Anyway, Alan Mclaughlin sent us to the world cup and Billy went home and practiced his wave.

Not quite sure what a 'mock "Royal Wave"' is .

Anyhow, "most" people did not "get the idea he was stirring" - or at least those actually at the game, like myself. Rather, a few people, possibly with an ulterior motive and likely not even at the game, have spread Chinese Whispers. The worst of these was that he was egging the crowd on to sing the Billy Boys. Considering half his team was Catholic, why in Hell would he do that?

And why is it hard to understand that in his last ever game in charge, he would encourage the crowd to get behind the team?

Tbh, I think at least part of the reason for the many exagerrations and distortions of the scenes that night - and I accept there was much bad behaviour from many NI fans - is that the ROI thought we were going to be a pushover (esp having won 3-0 in Dublin).

The fact that we wanted to win it as badly as you seems to have been a bit of a shock. And I have no doubt that one of the reasons why the players in particular were so fired up, was to try and give Billy B a winning send-off - Catholic players and all. Not bad for a notorious "bigot", eh?

Or didn't you notice how joyously Jimmy Quinn celebrated his goal?

[Traps Cat]

Not quite sure what a 'mock "Royal Wave"' is .

Anyhow, "most" people did not "get the idea he was stirring" - or at least those actually at the game, like myself. Rather, a few people, possibly with an ulterior motive and likely not even at the game, have spread Chinese Whispers. The worst of these was that he was egging the crowd on to sing the Billy Boys. Considering half his team was Catholic, why in Hell would he do that?

And why is it hard to understand that in his last ever game in charge, he would encourage the crowd to get behind the team?

Tbh, I think at least part of the reason for the many exagerrations and distortions of the scenes that night - and I accept there was much bad behaviour from many NI fans - is that the ROI thought we were going to be a pushover (esp having won 3-0 in Dublin).

The fact that we wanted to win it as badly as you seems to have been a bit of a shock. And I have no doubt that one of the reasons why the players in particular were so fired up, was to try and give Billy B a winning send-off - Catholic players and all. Not bad for a notorious "bigot", eh?

Or didn't you notice how joyously Jimmy Quinn celebrated his goal?

Well most "ROI" supporters certainly got the idea he was stirring. He was waving his hand in a circular motion like the queen does when waving to her subjects. Never called him a bigot though , think old Billy just got caught up in an emotional night and would have loved one up on us. Shame it didnt work out for him.

Oh i Remember Quinn's celebration alright - prefered Mclaughlin's.

[EalingGreen]

Looks like there will be an all UK team competing in the next Olympic competition. How is this playing with NI fans?

There will be a "Team GB" [sic] representing the UK in 2012, but it will be entirely made up of English players, since the IFA, SFA and FAW (and respective fans) want nothing whatever to do with it. Indeed, even the England Fans' representative body (the FSF) have come out against it, in solidarity with their fellow Britons:
www.NoTeamGB.com

I agree that the overwhelming majority of NI fans have no desire to see their team disappear, but the problem for NI is that it seems that its fan base has effectively diminished to the point where it appeals almost exclusively to one section of the population. The majority of current fans might not see this is a problem (a small element might actually prefer it that way), but its sad that football is becoming polarised in this way. Its also disingenuous for you to pretend that there isn't a problem.
My mother is from the North and Pat Jennings is a family friend. You are right that the NI team once had a much bigger cross community support, ironically when the political situation was worse than it is now. You are also right about Billy Bingham. his achievements with the 82 and 86 teams were miraculous in both footballing and political terms. I grew up supporting both Irish teams, but the NI team has become very firmly identified with one tradition and one set of loyalties.

I have never pretended there isn't a problem. Just as I have no problem with those Catholics in my NI Supporters Club, with whom I travel to games, nor they with me.
And of course the NI team appeals predominantly to one community in NI. However, it was not always so, and I am convinced that with the changes which have occurred in recent years, it certainly need not be that way in future.
For one thing, when/if we ever get a bigger stadium capacity, this will release many more tickets for general sale, outside of the present "stranglehold" on availability which our Block Bookers have had for some years now.
Secondly, as the Peace Process continues to take root, there is a whole generation of youngsters for whom the Troubles don't actually mean a great deal.
Plus the fact that our recovery on the field will likely attract more support, esp following the end of the ROI's period of ascendancy.
On which point, if people from NI choose to support the ROI, for whatever reason, then good for them. It is a free country, and we won't miss them.

If it is really going to reclaim cross community support then some sort of imaginative gesture is needed.

Lots of people are working every day of the week, in every part of NI, on all sorts of schemes, imaginative and prosaic, to bring people together.
If you don't believe me, just flick through the News Pages of this:
http://www.irishfa.com/grassroots/football-for-all/

Maybe this isn't it, but to reject it on the basis that the "overwhelming majority of NI fans dont want to see their team disappear" sounds a little bit too much like an "Ulster says no" response.

So we football fans must not express our opposition towards something which we see as threatening our very existence, for fear of being traduced and misrepresented, or associated by others with someone else's political movement?
Aye, right.

[EalingGreen]

Well most "ROI" supporters certainly got the idea he was stirring.

"Most" ROI supporters weren't even at the game - iirc, the official away allocation was fewer than 100 tickets.
And if they choose to imagine that he was in some way "stirring" by adopting a "Royal Wave" of some sort - a notion which is entirely new to me - then so be it. i will continue to believe what I saw and heard, namely, at a time when we were on the front foot, he stepped forward to encourage his players and fans on.
Then again, you might not be aware of such "unusual" behaviour, seeing as little, quiet Jack Charlton never ever got animated on the touchline...

Never called him a bigot though , think old Billy just got caught up in an emotional night and would have loved one up on us. Shame it didnt work out for him.

Fair enough. But seeing as Billy is one of my heroes, I get pretty sick of hearing him libelled by others, in a particularly disgusting way, as seems still to happen.

Oh i Remember Quinn's celebration alright - prefered Mclaughlin's.

I wouldn't expect anything else - nor ever object to it.

[EalingGreen]

EG:

I enjoy your posts. I don't agree with 99.9% of what you post but I appreciate and admire the clarity and thought that goes into each post.

Thank You.

EG:
I was not at the match in 1994. I was, however, watching it on the TV and I recall Bingham actually turning to the crowd and inciting them. I think the issue was the given the climate it may have been an inoportune gesture.

The day a manager is stopped from encouraging his players and fans forward, to the background of an entirely acceptable song ("One Team in Ireland"), in a derby match, with so much resting on it, will be the day when football ceases to be football. And I'll take up knitting.

As I said above, did you really expect that we would just roll over and die?

Frankly, for our players and manager to have given less than 100% would have been cheating our fans, cheating the other teams in the Group and cheating the spirit of football.

If other elements vested other, more sinister, meaning to the game, then shame on them.

I am happy that on the night, our team/manager wanted to win a football match, for the right reasons and in the right manner, with my greatest (footballing) regret being that we didn't quite manage it.

Que Sera Sera...

[Fergie's Son]

I have to respectfull disagree. It was inoportune. Most managers do not usually turn to the crowd of home supporters and gee them up like that. I don't think Bingham made a habbit of doing so during his career. In the general context, outside of whateve particular song may have been sung at the time, it looked like he was encouraging a braying mob at a particularly sensitive time. I believe Charlton was understandably upset at that.

[geysir]

Billy B wouldn't be the first OWCer who creamed himself prematurely

They all get their comeuppance eventually.

[bennocelt]

Thank You.

The day a manager is stopped from encouraging his players and fans forward, to the background of an entirely acceptable song ("One Team in Ireland"), in a derby match, with so much resting on it, will be the day when football ceases to be football. And I'll take up knitting.
..

as if that was the only song they were singing! Sure you could quite clearly hear all the stuff sang at the game from the TV - things about the Pope and all.
Also the atmosphere came across as very loaded, and Billy Bingham was def stoking it all up, which he is entitled to do - but in the week that it was maybe it wasnt such a good idea

[Gather round]

We're quite indifferent to NI's results as opposed to their self conscious "look at how crap the Republic are playing. Yipee!!"

Not sure about that. OK, there's a bit of banter and as the smallest country hereabouts we like to be ahead of the neighbours even if only temporarily. But clearly we are both third-rate. You are clearly self-conscious about our team and supporters (as this and other lengthy threads show), even if not the actual results. I mean, we're talking about a game 14 years ago that barely any of ye went to: yet everyone's fascinated by it.

Not sure that your analogy quite works, but its probably not helpful to spell out why. Just thought EG might have a view on this one. I think the Celtic Cup is a waste of time as a competition, using it an an exercise in post-GFA cross-community reconcilliation seemed like its only conceivable justification

The analogy is exact. I realise you may see it as a wind-up, but then I read yours in the same terms. Making some money (mainly for the FAI as hosts) and giving four low-achieving teams a chance to win a pot seem more conceivable justifications to me.

Think it was the fact that Billy Bingham was doing a mock "Royal Wave" to the crowd that gave most people the idea he was stirring.Anyway, Alan Mclaughlin sent us to the world cup and Billy went home and practiced his wave

He encouraged the crowd to get behind the team; the game ended with a fair result; Billy retired to work in the antiques business with his family. I'm sure he had no intention of aping or joining the royal family

Looks like there will be an all UK team competing in the next Olympic competition. How is this playing with NI fans?

Clearly a majority are opposed, as in Scotland and Wales. And as EG says, fans groups in England also.

the problem for NI is that it seems that its fan base has effectively diminished to the point where it appeals almost exclusively to one section of the population. The majority of current fans might not see this is a problem (a small element might actually prefer it that way), but its sad that football is becoming polarised in this way. Its also disingenuous for you to pretend that there isn't a problem

Actually NI's fanbase has held up well, and increased, in recent years- during which we were very poor on the pitch and had the Neil Lennon incidents etc. off it. The IFA, supporters clubs etc. have done much to make following NI more welcome to all. I don't see any inherent reason why younger fans from nationalist areas won't support us as well as RoI in the future (or even vice-versa), as you did as a kid.

the NI team once had a much bigger cross community support, ironically when the political situation was worse than it is now

A major factor in this must have been your failure to qualify in the 70s and most of the 80s, whereas we had a good side for six or seven years.

If it is really going to reclaim cross community support then some sort of imaginative gesture is needed. Maybe this isn't it, but to reject it on the basis that the "overwhelming majority of NI fans dont want to see their team disappear" sounds a little bit too much like an "Ulster says no" response

Ha ha. Not sure that your analogy quite works, as the man said. We're rejecting it because none of us want it, for reasons detailed at length on this thread and elsewhere. Comparing it with a Paisleyite slogan is trite.

I recall Bingham actually turning to the crowd and inciting them. I think the issue was the given the climate it may have been an inoportune gesture

He encouraged them to support the team. What did you expect him to do?

Well most "ROI" supporters certainly got the idea he was stirring

If so, most of you were being completely unrealistic.

Most managers do not usually turn to the crowd of home supporters and gee them up like that

You can't be serious. Managers do it all the time. When they go over the top (as Bingham didn't) they get cautioned or sent to the stands.

Also the atmosphere came across as very loaded, and Billy Bingham was def stoking it all up, which he is entitled to do - but in the week that it was maybe it wasnt such a good idea

Make your mind up- either it was a good idea and he was entitled, or it wasn't? 'Manager encouraging home fans in local derby' and 'opposing paramiliaries in tit for tat killings' are separate issues. Bingham acted reasonably on the night and demonising him is wholly unjustified.

[Wolfie]

Yes, I am "obsessed", but only with one of the Irish teams; as regards the other Irish team, I merely take a neighbourly interest.

Not for me, there's not.

My posts weren't directed solely and specifically at you, EG - it just reaffirms - yes, an observation - that NI may well revel in our misfortune in the same way that we still like to see England struggle.

"Neighbourly interest" - it's an almost quaint notion. Once it's not "Keeping up with the Jones'" *

* That's a joke too. Feel free to be amused, annoyed or indifferent to same.

[Hibernian]

[QUOTE=EalingGreen;1034256]Yes, I am "obsessed", but only with one of the Irish teams; as regards the other Irish team, I merely take a neighbourly interest.

funny how that does not show from previous threads.

its ok to tell the truth

[Drumcondra 69er]

For one thing, when/if we ever get a bigger stadium capacity, this will release many more tickets for general sale, outside of the present "stranglehold" on availability which our Block Bookers have had for some years now.

Would those new fans be 'H Block Bookers' if the stadium at The Maze site ever goes ahead? Sorry, couldn't resist!

For the record I don't think Bingham was a bigot for many of the reasons articulated by the Northern posters on here. However, I do think he behaved pretty badly on the night, there was seriously bad chanting and singing by a section of NI fans that night and the fact that Billy was pumping up the fans was a bit crass for me given the phase of the troubles we were in on the island. I think he got carried away and should have shown more decorum (especially given his reputation as one of the gentlemen of the game).

To suggest it was a hramless gesture is pure revisionism and is trying to remove it from it's context.

[Gather round]

I do think he behaved pretty badly on the night, there was seriously bad chanting and singing by a section of NI fans that night and the fact that Billy was pumping up the fans was a bit crass for me given the phase of the troubles we were in on the island. I think he got carried away and should have shown more decorum (especially given his reputation as one of the gentlemen of the game).

To suggest it was a hramless gesture is pure revisionism and is trying to remove it from it's context.

More decorum? Come on, it was a football match, not the state opening of Dail Eireann. Bingham did nothing wrong. Blame the minority in the crowd by all means. Hardly revisionist- we said it at the time too.