Financial Crisis

Originally Posted by Dr. Ogba

BUT (and again this would be to the lay person) - could the fact that Anglo seem to have hidden other dodgy dealings render the "contract" null and void and so could enable the government to pull out of it?

Whether the government Nationalises Anglo or not they already in the hock for deposit guarantees. Imagine if you put your modest savings into Anglo last year after the guarantee & then you lose the lot.

Originally Posted by pete

Brian Cowan was very defensive about "knowing" people in the Circle. I suspect if any government Minister the government will collapse.

The continued claiming that they don't know is just as damaging. One of the most dodgy practices uncovered (so far), known about for months by the Government yet they haven't even asked who was involved!

They're bound to be developers, so there's bound to be some FF connection. Sure they've already uncovered that Cowen was being wined and dined by the board!

I thought the Regulator investigated Quinn to ensure the money he wa sloaned by Anglo Irish was not used to buy shares in Anglo. Was it decided that was OK because they were not shares but CDs?

Ireland is very small & I can't see how it won't emerge that Ministers crossed paths with the Golden Ten. With the sums of money involved it seems a certainty.

Originally Posted by pete

Whatever about forcing him to resign what hope can we have these people can solve the crisis? They really are just lurching from one crisis to another...

Roisin Shortall was suspended in the Labour uproar. Lenihan made a beeline for the exit as soon as the Ceann Comhairle announced the end of the debate, in the middle of Joan Burton's nagging. Shortall protested, and the government voted to suspend her from the Dail the following morning. She is the second TD to be suspended since the last election.

Originally Posted by pete

I thought the Regulator investigated Quinn to ensure the money he wa sloaned by Anglo Irish was not used to buy shares in Anglo. Was it decided that was OK because they were not shares but CDs?

Ireland is very small & I can't see how it won't emerge that Ministers crossed paths with the Golden Ten. With the sums of money involved it seems a certainty.

Whether or not the Government associated with these people is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that they Government have presided over
1)an individual plundering the reserves of an insurance company for his own uses
2)a CEO of a bank borrowing excessively to invest in deals in which his employer financed (allegedly)
3)a bank giving significant amount of money (non-recourse lending is a loan in name only) to artificially support the share price and bail the individual in 1) above out (allegedly).

All of the above was either contained in monthly returns sent to the Financial Regulator or available upon request.

It's really hard to emphasize how bad this is. And what's worse is that before any of the above happened it was public knowledge and published in the media that Sean Quinn was building a significant stake in Anglo through CFDs.

It's worth reading up on the Guinness Four case from the 80s to see the similarities.

Seems to me that Government are hiding something big on this one, trying to stall it so it comes out way down the the line. They're claiming they can't name them because shareholders aren't allowed to find out about loans, but the circle of 10 also became shareholders, so why can't they name them from that side of the transaction? Also, they're saying they can't name them because they'll be sued - I thought they had Dail Priviledge that prevented them being sued?

imo there's some big skeleton waiting to fall out of this particular closet...

Dail privilege prevents an individual from being sued for something they say in the House, but not the Government they were saying something on behalf of. However the privacy argument is a nonsense and everyone knows it.

Of course there's skeletons. It's Fianna Fail ffs.

adam

More news today. Irish Times quotes:

The total amount of money lent to ten clients of Anglo Irish Bank to buy shares in the bank was €451 million, the bank said today. The total is far higher than the earlier estimates of €300 million borrowed by ten individuals to purchase up to 10 per cent of businessman Sean Quinn’s holding in the bank under contracts for difference.

Who estimated the original 300m & why is it now 450m?

Businessman Ulick McEvaddy has described the so-called golden circle of 10 investors in Anglo Irish Bank as “heroes” who were supporting an economy that is “at war”.

Oh my, what can you say to that? How can you be a hero taking a loan from the bank to buy (some would say prop up) their own shares & offer guarantees for a fraction of the loan.

Originally Posted by Macy

Seems to me that Government are hiding something big on this one, trying to stall it so it comes out way down the the line.

That's one possibility. The other is that there's noting to it and the Government is acting shifty to keep the nation focused on an area where they know they're safe.

It happened during the tribunals that Bertie acted suspicious for months about a particular lodgement in his account, refusing to answer questions and hand over documents. When he reluctantly agreed, the money was a part of his Father's estate which his Mother decided to share out amongst her children.

We have no actual evidence about who these 10 are so I'd be weary to jump to a conclusion. The government has past form in using these type of things as distractions.

Bertie's canny though, for all his (many, many) faults. Biffo's pig ignorant.

4 of the 10 "outed" by the Sunday Times & 2 others seem to be pencilled in.

Gerry Gannon, Joe O’Reilly, Seamus Ross and Jerry Conlan are four of the businessmen who secretly bought 10% of Anglo Irish Bank with the bank’s own cash.

The Sunday Times has been able to ascertain that the following businessmen, some of whom have had dealings with Anglo, are not among the 10 investors: Sean Mulryan, Patrick Doherty, Sean Dunne, Derek Quinlan, Denis O’Brien, JP McManus, John Magnier, Noel Smyth, Michael Whelan, Jim Mansfield, Richard Barrett, Johnny Ronan and Fintan Drury.

I have changed my opinion on this & while the 10 are no saints or heroes the State approved their actions. Brian Cowan, the Central Bank & the Regulator should be the focus of the media queries.

Originally Posted by dahamsta

Bertie's canny though, for all his (many, many) faults. Biffo's pig ignorant.

I would be more inclined to say Bertie is a white collar criminal

Some of you may find this interesting.
Something I've heard quite a few times over the past month or so is that, allegedly (and my sources are pretty good) since the guarantee and re-capitalisation, there have been regular calls from TDs (Government and otherwise) to senior management in the banks, using the public investment as leverage and asking them to go easy on certain named troubled developers and other businesses.

So I'd take the public pronouncements on chasing the Anglo debts with a large mine of salt...

Originally Posted by Reality Bites

I would be more inclined to say Bertie is a white collar criminal

You won't get any argument from me on that. However there's nothing stopping him being both. The problem isn't his cleverness, it's the Irish wink-and-smirk attitude towards the results. The people that tolerate him are nearly as much to blame as the man himself.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/eyauaucwqley/

http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0224/anglo.html

Anglo's HQ raid by "fraud squad"

Originally Posted by Dodge

Anglo's HQ raid by "fraud squad"

The raid followed remarks by Transport Minister Noel Dempsey yesterday in which he accused those involved in wrongdoing at the bank of engaging in “economic treason”.

Mr Dempsey said he and his Cabinet colleagues wanted to see the people responsible “pay a price”.

I know everyone has been calling for this to happen for some time now but is the change in government policy suspicious? Why did it take so long for these raids? Surely there should have been officials in Anglo for the last couple of months to ensure they didn't get busy with the sheeders?

It is almost as if the government have found 10 golden scapegoats to deflect attention from themselves. I must say it is working fairly well so far.

Pete are you suggesting the Gardai and ODCE operate at the behest of Government?

This country has almost no history of complex fraud investigations (tribunals don't count). This is the biggest job the ODCE has tackled by quite a margin, evidenced by the secondment of a large team of gardai to handle the investigative workload.

This is a very positive development IMO. Rome wasn't built in a day and (unfortunately) you can't change the cute hoor culture in one fell swoop. But this is a good first step.

Originally Posted by pete

I know everyone has been calling for this to happen for some time now but is the change in government policy suspicious? Why did it take so long for these raids? Surely there should have been officials in Anglo for the last couple of months to ensure they didn't get busy with the sheeders?

It is almost as if the government have found 10 golden scapegoats to deflect attention from themselves. I must say it is working fairly well so far.

I'd imagine any recriminating evidence is long gone - if it was ever held there.

Not sure if its cynicism or paranoia - but anyone else get a stage managed vibe to this "Raid"?

Originally Posted by pete

I know everyone has been calling for this to happen for some time now but is the change in government policy suspicious? Why did it take so long for these raids? Surely there should have been officials in Anglo for the last couple of months to ensure they didn't get busy with the sheeders?

I've said it many times, the banks know where too many FF bodies are buried (see their less than full disclosures to the tribunals). Anglo is an exaggerated case in point, because it also financed their builder buddies.

Never mind workers and trade unionists on the street, it's time for a mass protest with a view to a general election.

Originally Posted by Macy

I've said it many times, the banks know where too many FF bodies are buried (see their less than full disclosures to the tribunals). Anglo is an exaggerated case in point, because it also financed their builder buddies.

Never mind workers and trade unionists on the street, it's time for a mass protest with a view to a general election.

I don't disagree with what you say, and I hope the Greens re-discover their balls soon and force the issue.

But I'm not sure the unions can adopt a holier than thou approach, given the FAS debacle shows that when they are in a position of power they get distracted by having their snouts in the trough.