He's on the bench today for Villa against Sunderland
I see we have a class-a wum in this thread... His rigid definition of nationality barely extending beyond the village he's probably never left.
I just wonder if he agrees with any of Rio Mavuba's half a dozen caps for France, given his place of birth.
He's not class-A wum edmundo, he's class-A patriot!Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo
Last edited by The Fly; 24/10/2010 at 2:53 AM.
I love the way people bring up completely irrelevant examples like that when discussing these issues. I believe Mavauba qualified for France by virtue of spending all but the first days of his life there. I'm surprised actually the FAI didnt make a play for him on account of our Atlantic coastline connecting us to his birthplace!
I don't think it's fair to pick on someone because they feel a little ... uncomfortable? ... with this new recruit to Ireland. I can't say I'm exactly jumping for joy myself at another blow-in. It seems more like a cynical career move than some re examination of the lad's nationality. "So what, so long as he gives it his all?" some say.
Fair enough, it's not like players like Matt Holland didn't bust a gut for the shirt, but when there's another, legitimate, thread questioning the public's interest in the Irish team, maybe we shouldn't be so quick to welcome players who - at first glance - aren't actually Irish.
Aren't the lads parents Irish?
Completely irrelevant????? Its the exact same situation for crying out loud. An individual who was not born in the country but have ancestral links plays their international football for that country. Simple really.
Clear as day a WUM, but if you have ever met any Irish fans, particularly on away trips who were born outside Ireland, your opinion towards Irish players born outside the country may change somewhat.
It's totally relevant. Your blurred almost, whimsical definition of nationality just doesnt stand up in the modern, international world. Rio Mavuba is an extreme example, but huge numbers of ex-USSR players (that's the former Soviet Union) could play for any number of modern nations, given the country of their birth no longer exists...
e.g. Odemwinge, born in Tashkent (now Uzbekistan) had a Russian mother and a Nigerian father - he could have played for 3 countries. Alexandr Aliyev, born in Khabarovsk (Russian town 30km from China, 500km from North Korea) has Ukrainian parents and so plays for them but could play for Russia. Artem Milevskiy, born in Mozyr Belarus, plays for Ukraine.
Savo Milosevic, born in Bijeljina, Bosnia, played for Serbia and Montenegro. Ivan Ergic, born in Sibenik, Croatia, to Serbian parents, moved to Australia aged 5, plays for Serbia. Valon Behrami born in Kosovska Mitrovica, Serbia, plays for Switzerland, but Zdravko Kuzmanovic, born in Thun, Switzerland plays for Serbia. Nuri Sahin, born in Germany never lived in Turkey but plays for Turkish national team.
There are so many examples, immigration and emigration are facts of the modern world.
If Owen Hargreaves can turn out for England then anything is possible! I love his fake British accent.
errr.....ok.......I don't think Mavuba actually has any French ancestry - he qualifies through having lived there almost his entire life. If he were to play for Angola there might be some validity to this example
Ok so there are grey areas in regard to countries that have come in to or out of existence as is the case with Yugoslavia and the USSR. We;ve been here a while now though.........
I actually have quite a openminded and liberal approach to nationality, namely that you should be entitled to play for a country if you were
I believe the above defintion covers pretty much every international footballer in Europe other than our own and those of some of our celtic cousins. Even for Ireland Kilbane, Kevin Foley and Leon Best for instance I dont see why they shouldn't play for us. Its the grannyrulers and turncoats I have problems with and its hard to understand how any patriotic Irishman would welcome a team full of these.
- born there
- grew up there
- resided there at least five years
- have parents from there and have not played competitively for another country up to the level of your preceived potential.
I agree with you Adrock. The moment somebody mentions they might be uncomfortable with certain players born and bred in other countires declaring for us you get the usual garbage from the usual suspects on this site jumping down your throat throwing up the old tried and tested arguments regarding the Irish diaspora and the emigration since the famine, etc, etc etc. What they don't seem to understand is that almost everyone raising such points recognises the difference between a Kevin Kilbane or a Gary Breen (i.e. someone who though born abroad has grown up acutely aware of, and consequently being proud of their Irish roots ) and an Andy Townsend or Clinton Morrison who obviously only threw their lot in with us because they realised they weren't going to ever get a chance to represent the land of their first love - England. Now while it's true I supported both Townsend and Morrison (both were very useful players imo who represented Ireland to the best of their abilities) and am grateful for the service that they gave to the green jersey I do cringe at the thought of our first 11 being entirely made up of such players at the expense of other, perhaps less talented, Irish players with a genuine desire to represent their country (i.e. not Stephen Ireland).Ok so there are grey areas in regard to countries that have come in to or out of existence as is the case with Yugoslavia and the USSR. We;ve been here a while now though.........
I actually have quite a openminded and liberal approach to nationality, namely that you should be entitled to play for a country if you were
I believe the above defintion covers pretty much every international footballer in Europe other than our own and those of some of our celtic cousins. Even for Ireland Kilbane, Kevin Foley and Leon Best for instance I dont see why they shouldn't play for us. Its the grannyrulers and turncoats I have problems with and its hard to understand how any patriotic Irishman would welcome a team full of these.
- born there
- grew up there
- resided there at least five years
- have parents from there and have not played competitively for another country up to the level of your preceived potential.
Last edited by youngirish; 25/10/2010 at 12:45 PM.
Its the grannyrulers and turncoats I have problems with and its hard to understand how any patriotic Irishman would welcome a team full of these.I don't really understand the argument. Our current side isn't full of 'grannyrulers and turncoats' and I don't see how the Irish team would ever be that way - and arguably it's never been that way (Charlton era only possible exception). It doesn't seem likely we'd ever have a first 11 'entirely' or predominantly made up of these players.
And since the idea of nationality is fluid, which we all appear to agree, how do we define, for the sake of argument, who's a 'Kilbane' and who's a 'Townsend'? For instance which is Ciaran Clark? Personally I reckon the former, a few seem to be arguing his declaration is a cynical cap grab from a born-and-bred morris dancing, tea drinking, Telegraph reading dyed in the wool Union Jack but that's not how I read it at all...
Seems a bit nonsensical. If the guy turns up and gives everything for the shirt (like Townsend did) I don't have a problem. It ain't Texas lads - our side's not about to be overrun by English yahoos, sneaking over the border and 'stealing all our jobs' from hard-working, decent, 'perhaps less talented' Irishmen.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
So McGeady and McCarthy both out? Should they return their passports to the DFA and apologise for taking the place of Adrock approved players?Ok so there are grey areas in regard to countries that have come in to or out of existence as is the case with Yugoslavia and the USSR. We;ve been here a while now though.........
I actually have quite a openminded and liberal approach to nationality, namely that you should be entitled to play for a country if you were
- born there
- grew up there
- resided there at least five years
- have parents from there and have not played competitively for another country up to the level of your preceived potential.
I believe the above defintion covers pretty much every international footballer in Europe other than our own and those of some of our celtic cousins. Even for Ireland Kilbane, Kevin Foley and Leon Best for instance I dont see why they shouldn't play for us. Its the grannyrulers and turncoats I have problems with and its hard to understand how any patriotic Irishman would welcome a team full of these.
Last edited by boovidge; 25/10/2010 at 2:33 PM.
Parfait Mandanda, brother of Steve Mandanda (french 2nd choice national keeper) played U21s for France but plays nationally for the Congo DR. He was born in Nevers, central France and has never lived in Congo DR.Ok so there are grey areas in regard to countries that have come in to or out of existence as is the case with Yugoslavia and the USSR. We;ve been here a while now though.........
I actually have quite a openminded and liberal approach to nationality, namely that you should be entitled to play for a country if you were
I believe the above defintion covers pretty much every international footballer in Europe other than our own and those of some of our celtic cousins. Even for Ireland Kilbane, Kevin Foley and Leon Best for instance I dont see why they shouldn't play for us. Its the grannyrulers and turncoats I have problems with and its hard to understand how any patriotic Irishman would welcome a team full of these.
- born there
- grew up there
- resided there at least five years
- have parents from there and have not played competitively for another country up to the level of your preceived potential.
Kevin Prince Boateng, German mother, Ghanian father, born in Berlin, never lived in Ghana, played U15 through to U21 for Germany, played at the last World Cup for Ghana.
Mourad Meghni, born in Paris, Algerian Parents, never lived in Algeria, played for U17-U21s for France, was in the Algerian team at this years African Nations Cup. Same scenario with Antar Yahia (born in Mulhouse, France, played for France at U16-U18s); same with Belhadj (born Jura, played for France U18); same with Bellaid (born in northern Paris, played U16,18,21 for France, also could have played for Tunisia as well)... There are several more in the Algerian team who played youth football for France, born in France and never lived in Algeria - e.g. Medjani, Yebda, Abdoun, Boudebouz.
Chretien of Morocco (born in Nancy, only ever played for Nancy, played for french youth teams) also El Ahmadi and Mounir El Hamdaoui (born in Holland played for Dutch national youth teams) and El Zahar (played schoolboy football for France). Kaba Diawara was born in France and played U21 football for them but now plays for Guinea.
Even in other continents you have the likes of Jermaine Jones born in Frankfurt played for Germany U21s now plays for the Americans.
So I think it's disingenuous to say your definitions cover "pretty much every international footballer in Europe" and even if you were to now back-track and say "oh I meant only players playing for European nations" the likes of Ludovic Obraniak (born in Metz, played U21 for France, now plays for Poland) and Damien Perquis (same except born in Troyes) disprove the statement, even ignoring ex-USSR/Yugoslavia issues.
Yes I meant in Europe as in playing for European countries amongst who there is an entire ONE exception to this on the continent - that of Obreniak. FIFA constantly seems to change its rules these days to appease nagging Third World countries. The old rules regarding eligibilitywere there in the first place place to ensure footballers didn't try swapping countries like they did clubs to suit their (adjusted) career aspirations. Its sad to see us going down that line as well.
Clark is only one individual but we are edging back to the Plastic Paddy ways of old, only this time we've got English players who actually played for England as well as those that never got asked to. The Charlton era was a bit of a joke really and now we have another foreign manager who treats the national team like a club side always on the look out for new recruits. A national team ought to be representative of that nation. Remember at the Athens olympics the greeks went out to recruit a baseball team out of Americans with greek ancestry. How representative of that of Greek baseball prowess? Not at all but they all qualified through the rules so that made them Greek baseball players right? Just because you're wearing the shirt of a country doesnt mean you necessarily representing that country in any real sense.
Leaving aside arguments about 'Plastic Paddy ways of old', is this true? Really? Ciaran Clark and Paul Green hardly make us West Brit FC. Especially since, as has been discussed to death, Clark has EXTREMELY strong ties to Ireland.
Eh don't we expect any manager, national or club, to be on the look out for new players? And regardless, your 'foreign manager' jibe is just plain wrong since McCarthy, Kerr and Stan had no issues capping 'new recruits' or treating it like a club side.
Don't see how an amateur game of yankee rounders is a relevant comparison, especially since edumundo has provided you with plenty of examples from the same sport.
Personally I think Townsend, Morrison and the rest of the invaders represented us in a real sense, since they gave their all for the green with pride and passion. I'd hope and expect the same from all Irish players, regardless of place of birth, in the future.
Last edited by SwanVsDalton; 25/10/2010 at 4:37 PM.
Ou-est le Centre George Pompidou?
Effort's got nothing to do with it. Anyway given the chance to play international football is going to try their best out of professional pride - its not like they're forced to be out their against will (unless they're Stephen Ireland) Clark's statement is clearly worded to go out of his way to sound honorable about his career move but even so he still effectively states he's going to plays for us bacause he cant see his England career getting any further.
the guy's very young, breaking into a premiership side and has been linked with clubs like man united. if he really wanted to play for england he would have waited a little longer don't you think? i have more reservations about someone like noble who has clearly waited until the england train has left the station.
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