QuoteHas Van Helsing checked him over ?Originally Posted by mypost
He dealt with every cross and corner going. No issues whatsoever. So what does he need to do to convince you?
Has Van Helsing checked him over ?
Still amazes me how much more scepticism and faint praise there is re Kelleher on this site than there is on LFC forums.
A greater body of evidence. Its not difficult to grasp the jist of the other side of the argument on Kelleher, surely.
That's just not true. Almost everyone here talks about how good he is, what his strengths are and what a prospect he is. Just want to see him play more.
Want to see him play more because, as you say, they / you need more evidence as to his ability. Believe it or not nobody else (journalists, pundits, LFC fans) are expressing any doubts about his ability. The general consensus is that Liverpool have a talented and highly impressive young keeper.
You cannot put a price on experience - it’s as paramount for a goalkeeper as it is for outfield players. That is what he needs. No one is arguing that he doesn’t have fantastic ability and potential. He just needs games, then we can really see what he’s made off. A handful of senior starts isn’t enough for me.
Good to hear he'll get to play in the final,great occasion for him to experience!
Irish by birth ,Harps by the grace of god.
That's the general consensus here too no?
I've said why I think he should play more enough times at this point. I don't think it's in any way controversial.
So let me ask this instead - do you think he's the finished article?
I think the stagnation from lack of games that people expected hasn’t really occurred.
If you compare him to Freddie Woodman for example, Woodman is a year older - and he would have always been considered the better keeper through youth level. Woodman was the starting keeper for every England age group from U16 to U21, playing 56 times in the process for various English underage teams.
Woodman has gone on loan six times to League 2, the SPL and the championship and played 139 senior games in that time - most recently first choice for Swansea in the championship 2 seasons in a row. And yet, he’s currently 3rd choice at Newcastle - and Kelleher is the better keeper.
Either Kelleher’s development is in-spite of lack of loans, or the opposite, it’s because he stayed and worked with Achtenberg, Alisson, Taffarel, Klopp etc etc. rather than going out on loan. Or he was destined to develop either way.
Personally I reckon if he had moved to say, Cardiff at 21, he’d probably be the first choice at Cardiff now but he wouldn’t be the keeper he is today. And while I’d like him to get first team football, I also think that every game he plays against Chelsea or any other big Liverpool game like perhaps the cup final is worth 10 championship games.
I really like Bazunu. I think he’s an excellent young keeper but right now, I’d definitely trust Kelleher not to make a big mistake in an important game than I would Bazunu. As has been noted, Bazunu has been a tad fortunate on occasion. Saying that, it’s very hard to drop a keeper who has performed as well as he has done…
Nonetheless, a good place to be. If Kelleher is on the bench, he’ll be the best substitute that we have. I reckon he’d be a first choice for 9 premier league sides. The likes of Southampton, Crystal Palace, Norwich, Watford, Brentford etc etc. only a handful ireland players you could say that about…
Last edited by elatedscum; 22/01/2022 at 1:37 AM.
Nice post.
I'd question his development being down to not playing as we don't have a control Kelleher who went out on loan....Woodman is a good effort but maybe Woodman just never had it in him to go further? You suggest Kelleher may have developed either way which might be true....I like the reasoning anyway and I like the development question a lot. I'd love to hear from coaches on it. If we had a 23 year old forward playing second fiddle to Salah would we prefer if they went and banged a few goals in for a season as the main man elsewhere or be happy they were learning from the best and getting a few starts?
All on all it still leaves us with a keeper who looks great in one off games (maybe ok for internationals...) but hasn't played a senior season and it still leaves him on the bench at club and country level.
You also slightly changed the loan scenario a bit - If he had gone to Cardiff on loan at 21 he'd back at Liverpool now and possibly doing more than backing Alisson up.
Thanks for refocusing on the question though - who is the better option? I'd be inclined to go with Kelleher right now if it was completely open. But dropping Bazunu would be harsh as you say.
Good place to be for Ireland as you say.
Well, there goes our last hope of him getting a loan move this season.
Finished article in that he is obviously good enough to be playing for us now. Of course he has scope to get even better, he’s still young.
There's one major difference, this is an Ireland forum, that's a Liverpool forum. This one wants to see Kelleher playing regular games before he can be number one for Ireland. The other forum is happy to have a solid backup keeper, and little interest and in him becoming number one.
https://kesslereffect.bandcamp.com/album/kepler - New music. It's not that bad.
I don't think that makes much sense though. Klopp is going to pick him to play in a cup final that is kivrrpools best chance of silverware against chelsea on the back of his small number of games in what will be a completely first choice team even though klopp has his number 1 keeper who has 50 caps for Brazil available but he is not good enough for us until he has played 50 games in league one where nobody actually watches the games and relies on a few clips on twitter of saves to make a judgement.
You’re begging the question there. Whether he needs to be playing regularly as our number one is the question for debate, not some fundamental truth. We’re talking about perceptions of his ability and readiness for big games. LFC fans may not all be advocating he should displace Allison (although some actually are ), but they all think he is well good enough to play when needed. The words most commonly used to describe him are outstanding, talented, impressive etc not solid or adequate. People here are still quibbling about aspects of his game, his preparedness for international football etc. He’s not up against Allison for selection for the Ireland team in any case. He’s up against a 19 year old incumbent who has done well, has bucket loads of potential, has shown a propensity to make the odd mistake (understandable) and is playing in the third tier of English football.
I'd imagine Kenny does too!
The reality is that he is behind Bazunu because he got injured when his chance came around, not because anybody thinks he can't do the job. Meanwhile Bazunu's done really well which hasn't given Kenny any reason to switch things up...yet. He may now that Kelleher has the Chelsea game under his belt but I still think the jersey is Bazunu's. I'm sure they talk about it though.
IMOP he still has to play a season or two as the main man before we know how good he really is but he's certainly good enough to play for Ireland now given our other options and the overall level of the team. If people are highlighting a few areas he can improve in then that's just the type of stuff that gets ironed out with regular experience and isn't strange to call out on a forum.
In addition, if he was #1 at club level in the EPL he'd be a nailed on starter for Ireland. He's not because he thinks he can displace Alisson. Maybe he can...but I'd much rather he was #1 elsewhere. Again, if we were choosing between the 3 options starting now I'd say Kelleher would get it...but that's not how it panned out.
Anti-Kenny people (or Kenny / Barry as you like to say) and Liverpool fans have a different take. Understandable but common sense would say footballers are better off playing football. If he isn't the finished article now, he won't get there sitting on the bench into his late twenties and playing a handful of mainly meaningless games a season.
Or to ask you the question - if he isn't the finished article now, how does he get there the fastest?
Well he seems to have made fairly decent progress doing what’s he doing where he is. Learning from one of the world’s best goalies, being coached by excellent coaches and playing far from meaningless games when called upon. Are you saying he would have made the same progress at a Championship or League 1 club on loan?
Loads of clubs have excellent coaches and "fairly decent progress" hasn't been enough to nail him down a starting spot at club or country level has it? It could have been for Ireland but he missed the chance due to injury.
Not sure on your last question. I think so but I'm open to the idea as I've said loads of times. It seems counterintuitive that he would not have developed as fast by playing football games but maybe he's a unique case and it is a different position. For me, PL2 isn't the same as playing senior football. League cup isn't the same as playing a season. A handful of redundant CL games and a few important EPL games isn't the same as a season as #1. If he had the latter he'd be a shoe in for Ireland. He'd likely be #1 regardless if not for the injury but that would be undisputed if he had more games under his belt. By the way I think it would be absolutely fair at this point to put him in as he's done really well since Ireland last played. That's just tricky given Bazunu's performances.
Back on point though, Bazunu is a better keeper now than he was last year and he's on loan in L1. Facing shots and scenarios and having a crowd behind you week in week out is surely not bad for a players development? Or you think otherwise?
But look we both agree Kelleher looks the business. I get the impression you aren't a big Kenny fan so maybe you think it's a really glaring mistake not to put him in? Has Bazunus selection, which again was forced by Kelleher absence, gone that badly wrong for you?
Last edited by ontheotherhand; 22/01/2022 at 5:45 PM.
The counterpoint to that is that Bazunu has had a similar experience at Man City (minus the gametime) and he is now clearly a much better keeper than he was in the early days of his loan at Rochdale. And I'm sure the coaching at Bournemouth isn't half bad, yet Travers wasn't given a chance until he had some gametime at Weymouth. Even at that, he had some wobbles early on to the extent that people were starting to write him off - and now, after a brief loan spell in League one and half a season as number one back at Bournemouth, there is a legitimate case being made that he should be given another shot as first choice goalkeeper for us
And even Kelleher himself is undoubtedly a better player than he was in the 5-5 draw with Arsenal, having had some more first-team experience. But that was over two years ago and some lingering doubts remain about him in one-on-ones (see the Vardy goal) and facing crosses - at this point I think that, yes, he would develop faster by facing 100 crosses and 30 one-on-one situations under siege in League One next season than facing 20 crosses and half-a-dozen one-on-ones in the Cups and a handful of EPL fixtures behind Virgil van Dijk.
So three questions to ask about Kelleher:
1. Do I think he's good enough to play for Ireland right now? Absolutely, without a doubt
2. Do I think he's as good as he could become with a bunch of games (even in League One)? No
3. Right now, is he a better option than Bazunu and Travers? Debatable and changeable
Liverpool's GK staff are getting a lot of credit here too considering their track record isn't all that great. Karius was tipped to be the main man and when they couldn't get him there they spent 80m on tried and tested. Maybe Kelleher has improved in spite of them?
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