Euro 2008: Lessons for Ireland?

[ifk101]

I don't think we can have an honest assessment of how good we are at this point in time. We know how good individually our players are, but we don't know how good they are as a team.

Whatever about the various individual merits of the EURO 2008 teams, all teams were organised and had a specific gameplan. We have a group of players that I believe that once they have a bit of organisation about them, only the top tier of teams in the World would fancy their chances of beating us. But looking at Spain and how they play the game is a little bit of "learning to run before you can walk". Basic team organisation is what we need first and foremost.

I believe Trapattoni can get us organised and add structure to our game. Once that's completed we do have players that can win games for us. I seen a lot of Sweden in the past 8-10 years and they don't have a better pick of players than us. But they continually qualify for major tournament time and time again playing the same tried and tested formation and tactics. Sweden is an example of how "doing your homework" can pay dividends and it's something we can learn from. Once we get that right we can take it to the next level.

[Emmet]

see post above yours for a sensible post.
you honestly cant see anything ludicrous with on the one hand hoping we have a good international team that can compete in these tournaments and on the other having no system whatsover to nurture our own players? to just throw young lads into a foriegn country in the hope that some of them "make it" and branding them "not good enough" to be footballers if they cant make the first team at some of the top clubs in the world?
that to me sums up everything that is wrong with some football supporters in this country. see the international team as operating in some form of splendid isolation from everything else.

Bill - lets leave aside the personal snipes and engage in a civil discussion. Please. Can you give me some straight answers:

Which Irish players were good enough to make it as senior internationals but didn't because they went to England?

Explain Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen ... the list could go on and on. Those players were 'nurtured' in England - they are not all English; some of them have come from further afield than Ireland and have had to learn a new language (which none of our youngsters have had to). What did they have that our youngsters didn't?

Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

[Billsthoughts]

1)Which Irish players were good enough to make it as senior internationals but didn't because they went to England?
2)Explain Fabregas, Ronaldo, Gerrard, Rooney, Lampard, Ferdinand, Owen ... the list could go on and on. Those players were 'nurtured' in England - they are not all English; some of them have come from further afield than Ireland and have had to learn a new language (which none of our youngsters have had to). What did they have that our youngsters didn't?
3)Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

Answer me this. do you honestly beleive that the present "system" (and I use the word lightly as it implies that some form of organisation goes into this on the part of the FAI) is the best way of ensuring that we have a strong pool of players to choose from?
Because you seem to be implying you think this with the above.
In answer to your questions -
1) Who knows? What I can say for certain is that the current lack of ANY proper system on our part is not the best way of maximising the potential of OUR players. The system you are talking about is the system used by English clubs to unearth potential players for THEMSELVES. If your saying that this is the same thing as if they are not good enough for the English clubs they are not good enough for us well then I disagree. Strongly.
2) I dont understand what you are trying to say with your second question. These are all good players. Your point being? These are good players that play in England therefore its in our best interests to send our young players to England? I dont see how you make that leap. England play just as limited football as us. I dont think Euro 08 was any the poorer for their absence.
3) Couple of things on this. firstly with bosman we wont have this amount of players playing at top English clubs EVER again. That is a fact.
Even leaving that aside we are still relying on outside forces that dont have our best interests at heart to provide us with a playing base. Can you not see the madness in that?
They were great acheivements you mentioned and I wouldnt discount us totally from doing something similar at some point in the future. But if we did it wouldnt be due to any grassroots organisation on our part.

Stutts I dont doubt we can get results against anyone on our day. But what could we achieve if we really got our act together and organised football properly in this country?

[Emmet]

1) What I can say for certain is that the current lack of ANY proper system on our part is not the best way of maximising the potential of OUR players. The system you are talking about is the system used by English clubs to unearth potential players for THEMSELVES. If your saying that this is the same thing as if they are not good enough for the English clubs they are not good enough for us well then I disagree. Strongly.

English clubs are not even remotely concerned about the English national team - if a player is English, Irish, Spanish to them it makes no difference. What they are concerned with is how good that player is. If he is good and he can play then he will help them win promotion / qualify for Europe / compete for trophies (depending on the aspirations of that particular club of course). The player's nationality is of absolutely no relevance to them whatsoever.

2) I dont understand what you are trying to say with your second question. These are all good players. Your point being? These are good players that play in England therefore its in our best interests to send our young players to England? I dont see how you make that leap. England play just as limited football as us. I dont think Euro 08 was any the poorer for their absence.

My point was that the system used in England cannot be that bad if it produces players of this calibre. You need to remember that a significant number of managers and their coaches are from outside of the UK - particularly in the English Premier League. The fact that Steve McLaren got anywhere near the England job shows how few decent English coaches there are around! I agree with you about the English team not being at Euro 2008 and how much better the tournament was because of that - but again you need to make a distinction between the England team and the English league. My point is that for a player to play alongside some of the players who play in the English League can only be beneficial. I couldn't give a monkeys about the English team!

3) Couple of things on this. firstly with bosman we wont have this amount of players playing at top English clubs EVER again. That is a fact.
Even leaving that aside we are still relying on outside forces that dont have our best interests at heart to provide us with a playing base. Can you not see the madness in that?

I'll admit it is not ideal but I don't necessarily believe that having a strong domestic league will bring us better players. Scotland for instance have a strong league and have had for a while ... their national team is pretty much on a par with ours though. When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?

[ifk101]

I agree with you Emmet. Reserve and lower league English football will continue to produce the calibre of players we are currently enjoying.

[kennedmc]

Explain how we came within eight minutes of a European Championship Semi-Final, got to one World Cup Quarter Final, and the second round at two other World Cup Finals with the system you are now criticising?

Explain how Uruguay won 2 world cups?

[Billsthoughts]

English clubs are not even remotely concerned about the English national team ............

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?

[Emmet]

ifk101 - My point is that if those players were more talented and had more natural ability then they would not be in the reserves or lower leagues of English football. No Irish player has had the natural ability to 'make it' but failed to because he went to England. The clubs in the English league will spot the players who are good enough and reject those who aren't. This belief that we have an abundance of talented young players who are being let down by the English for some inexplicable reason is simply a myth without any kind of rational explanation.

kennedmc - Uruguay won the inaugral 1930 World Cup which they were the hosts an then did not enter the 1934 or 1938 tournaments because those tournaments were held in Europe and so many European teams (including Ireland) chose not to participate in the 1930 tournament because they felt it was too far to travel. They won the 1950 World Cup held in Brazil. I wasn't around at the time but presumably they won both tournaments because they had some good players who could play.

[Emmet]

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?

Bill I did ask you 'When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?' yet for some reason you didn't answer ... it's very easy to moan and whine but not so easy to be constructive and offer positive suggestions and ideas, eh?

[Greenforever]

I think you putting words in my mouth. I never said English clubs were interested in the English national team.

Yes its beneficial for players to play alongside these players. But again whats your point? We have a small handfull of players playing in the English top flight. Sunderland get relegated and it will be a lot less. Hardly the foundations for a strong showing at international level.

Again I never said anything bout a strong domestic league but seeing as you mentioned it when Scotland had a league with majority scottish players they had a very strong team that qualified for EVERY world cup. their best players went to the top English clubs after being groomed in the domestic league. When the number of foreign players increased at the top clubs their national team went into decline that it now seems on the verge of digging itself out of.

Team that bet WC runners up france 1-0 was
Gordon, Dailly, Pressley, Weir, Graham Alexander, Fletcher, Ferguson, Caldwell, Hartley, McCulloch (Teale 58), McFadden (O'Connor 72).
Subs Not Used: Neil Alexander, McManus, Neilson, Boyd, Severin.

Any scottish football experts know from that line up how many started in the scottish league?

Scotland qualified for 4 sucessive world cups from 74 to 86 but I don't think the foriegn invasion happened in Scotland till well into the 90s or even after the turn of the century.

[Billsthoughts]

Scotland qualified for 4 sucessive world cups from 74 to 86 but I don't think the foriegn invasion happened in Scotland till well into the 90s or even after the turn of the century.

they were at the 1990 WC - they were beaten by costa rica. they were also at the 98 wC. thats 6 from a possible 7. Not a bad return.

[Greenforever]

they were at the 1990 WC - they were beaten by costa rica. they were also at the 98 wC. thats 6 from a possible 7. Not a bad return.

i stand corrected

[Billsthoughts]

ifk101 - My point is that if those players were more talented and had more natural ability then they would not be in the reserves or lower leagues of English football. No Irish player has had the natural ability to 'make it' but failed to because he went to England. The clubs in the English league will spot the players who are good enough and reject those who aren't. This belief that we have an abundance of talented young players who are being let down by the English for some inexplicable reason is simply a myth without any kind of rational explanation.

Again nobody said the English system "let us down."It is what it is. Its just not a system with our best interests at heart so why rely on it? I would have thought thats a no brainer.

Bill I did ask you 'When you talk about having a proper 'system' what sort of thing are you thinking of? What would it look like?' yet for some reason you didn't answer ... it's very easy to moan and whine but not so easy to be constructive and offer positive suggestions and ideas, eh?

I think if you look back I answered all your questions quite reasonably. If you read my posts you will see I think there is NO system in place at the mo and we are relying on dumb luck if we produce any players. all you want me to do is mention strong domestic league so you can go off on one about Eircom league players not making it in england therefore not being good enough. Its been done to death. boring and irrelevant. If you honestly beleive that Irish football is best served by the present system were we rely on English clubs to produce our players well then I go back to my original point thats its attitudes like yours that are the reason we dont have a strong national team. and after answering all your questions I have one for you...
how many players come back from England and never play the game again? Is football in this country best served by that?

[Billsthoughts]

i stand corrected

in fairness ya had me worried for a sec!

[ifk101]

I think there is NO system in place at the mo and we are relying on dumb luck if we produce any players.

Little bit too harsh there, eh?

[cavan_fan]

I think if you look back I answered all your questions quite reasonably. If you read my posts you will see I think there is NO system in place at the mo and we are relying on dumb luck if we produce any players. all you want me to do is mention strong domestic league so you can go off on one about Eircom league players not making it in england therefore not being good enough. Its been done to death. boring and irrelevant. If you honestly beleive that Irish football is best served by the present system were we rely on English clubs to produce our players well then I go back to my original point thats its attitudes like yours that are the reason we dont have a strong national team. and after answering all your questions I have one for you...
how many players come back from England and never play the game again? Is football in this country best served by that?

I'm a bit confused too. Are you saying we need a better youth system to get players to 16. My understanding is that for a country of our size we actually have a good system in this area. I think we do as well as we can in getting good players at that age. Once they get there they need to move to a professsional club. One option would be for them to stay in Ireland but then their development is going to be based on who they are playing against and the standard of coaching. At present in Ireland this is not high enough. This might improve but I think we've been around that a bit. The other option would be for them to abroad. Logically most will go to England or Scotland just as most Brazilians go to Spain & Portugal.

I'm still unclear what else the FAI could do?

[ifk101]

I'm still unclear what else the FAI could do?

The responsibility for the development of Irish football lies as much with the country's fans as it does with the FAI and domestic clubs.

We need fans going through the turnstiles to generate revenue that can be reinvested in youth development and the growth of the game.

Our "purple patch" as an international side was largely dependent on players born abroad as a very small percentage of the countless kids we send across the water "make it".

Natural ability is important to "make it" as a professional footballer but other factors also dictate. Taking young lads from their families and friends and placing them in a foreign environment isn't really ideal for the development of professional footballers, is it? And let's be honest about - if it wasn't the football industry this practice would be called child-trafficking.

Ireland has qualified for one major tournament out of the last seven qualifying attempts. If this is acceptable to "Irish fans" they we should continue to look at the English for the further development of our players. If not, we need to examine what we can do to improve ourselves as a footballing nation and stop being fooled by marketing. Every one of the 16 nations that competed in EURO 2008 had players competing in their own domestic leagues. Coincidence?

[Emmet]

ifk101 - With England (and Scotland too) being so close to us geographically it will be very hard for us to get to the stage where we will have a league that can seriously compete with the English. We also have other sports in our own country - GAA and Rugby to a lesser extent - that compete with football for fans' revenue; It would be great if we did have a domestic league that was competitive and had sides playing regularly in Europe but we are some way off achieving that. Your reference to child trafficking is a bit unfair - many clubs have tried and tested structures in place to take these young men which enable them to live in a safe environment and have regular contact with their families back home. Plus - these young players choose to go over to Liverpool, Manchester United etc.

It would be great if we could get one of the Eircom League sides into the Champions League group phase. I know that some of them have come pretty close in recent years; if one of those clubs can get over that line then there would be the obvious finanical rewards but also a real incentive for young players to maybe think again about England / Scotland and automatically assuming that they have to go there if they are to have any chance as a professional footballer.

[Billsthoughts]

Little bit too harsh there, eh?

not sure what you mean here. It definitely wouldnt be in our hands under the present system.

I'm a bit confused too........
I'm still unclear what else the FAI could do?

At present they do nothing. I dont know much about the coaching of under 16s but Liam Brady head of Arsenals Academy does. He had an article not so long ago were he heavily criticised the level of coaching at that age in Ireland. Read in to it what you will.

- if it wasn't the football industry this practice would be called child-trafficking.

Agree with this. There does seem to be certain moral issues that everyone is turning a blind eye to. I know that might come across as "emotional clap trap" to narrow minded emotionaly stunted people who see everything in life in terms of euros and cents. But hey...get over it!

ifk101 - With England (and Scotland too) being so close to us geographically it will be very hard for us to get to the stage .

There is so much wrong with this....But just to take the main point...We dont have to compete with the English. Our best players could still go to England and play at the top clubs. It just means our middle and lower tier playing base wont be decimated before it hits 18.

[cavan_fan]

Ireland has qualified for one major tournament out of the last seven qualifying attempts. If this is acceptable to "Irish fans" they we should continue to look at the English for the further development of our players.

I'm not sure about acceptable but we need to be realistic. We are one of the smaller countries in Europe. So even if we had the same advantages as other countries we are at the Iceland/Finland level. Added to this we are very unusual in Europe in that we have a more popular team sport. So frankly, any success is a bit of a miracle.

My view is that there are 2 things we have had going for us which have allowed us to punch above our weight.

1 - Our players have had good access to the English Leagues allowing them to develop in a professional enviornment. This is declining now as English clubs cast their nets wider.

2 - We have had access to a large popualtion of 2nd gen players which boost our effective popualtion to somewhere around 10 million.

Ask yourself why should we have a better recent record than Hungary, Finland, Iceland??