First Division Run-In

[legendz]

I dunno, there's a bit of faff in the current set-up. Why should 50% of the teams in the first divison be in with a chance of promotion? Or ninth-placed in the Premier get a bye to the final? Why not PD9 v FD4 and FD2 v FD3 over two legs, winners into the playoff (one fewer game than currently). OK, a first division team misses out on a playoff spot, but the Premier team faces the extra jeopardy of two banana skins and the full attention of the schadenfreude crowd, which makes it fun for neutrals too!.

That is an option. FD4 v FD5 in a quarter final in addition to your suggestion is an option as well. Only requires the First Division finishing a week before the Premier Division.

The current playoff including 2nd to 5th has succeeded in giving more FD clubs a lifeline. That was a big reason for going with it.

[Buckett]

I would doubt that there will be any tinkering until the new tier is in place with promotion to the FD.
I like the idea of PD9 joining the playoffs at the semi-final stage though.

[Eminence Grise]

That is an option. FD4 v FD5 in a quarter final in addition to your suggestion is an option as well. Only requires the First Division finishing a week before the Premier Division.

True, but it's an extra two games and elongates the playoffs.

The current playoff including 2nd to 5th has succeeded in giving more FD clubs a lifeline. That was a big reason for going with it.

I take that point. Out of curiousity, how many clubs who finished fifth have won the playoff? Not being a smart-alec asking: if the answer is as few as one, it offers some support, if not total vindication, for the bar being set at fifth.

[2 Year Contract]

True, but it's an extra two games and elongates the playoffs.



I take that point. Out of curiousity, how many clubs who finished fifth have won the playoff? Not being a smart-alec asking: if the answer is as few as one, it offers some support, if not total vindication, for the bar being set at fifth.

Since 5th place became a playoff spot in 2020, the results are;

2020 Longford (4th place) beat Shels to gain promotion
2021 UCD (3rd place) beat Waterford to gain promotion
2022 Waterford (2nd place) lost to UCD to stay down
2023 Waterford (2nd place) beat Cork to gain promotion
2024 Bray (5th place) lost to Drogheda to stay down

[Nesta99]

I think clubs having something to play for for longer has to be a help to boost gates. The worst season ever in my LoI experience was the (Premier Division) split season where teams in the bottom half that were safe had nothing to play for and crowds bombed. Once an automatic promotion spot is out of reach, no relegation, clubs have so little to play for they should only have players on half season contracts and trim all costs asap. Give a sniff of play-off going in to the last round keeps more clubs and fans invested!? It should do but dont know if the figures were ever looked in to to justify that presumption. So its less about success in the actual play-offs themselves, imo, doing well is a bonus. Its a gimmick but maybe it works. As much as I was against a 10 team PD it is relentless in every game counting, even if the 4th meeting, often far from dull for every side with hardly mid-table safety. Relegation from the 1st Division makes few games dead rubbers in due course too.

[MoydowMonty]

I know full well why 5th place is a play off spot for the reasons given above, but I'm still against it. 5th in a 10 team league means you're not very good, and I don't believe that should earn you a shot at the playoff lottery.

What I'd like to see is a system where if 2nd place finishes a certain amount of points ahead of 3rd (lets say 10 points for arguments sake) then 2nd place just gets a bye to the next round and 5th place are out. Could maybe even do the same with 3rd ahead of 4th, as I don't believe 4th means you're good enough for a playoff either.

Also the final against the 9th premier team should go back to being 2 legs. It was way better craic and it's a much better measure of who the better team truly is

[legendz]

True, but it's an extra two games and elongates the playoffs.

It does but if the FD4 v FD5 quarter final is on the Monday and Friday that the Premier is finishing, the quarter final winner will be decided in time to take on PD9 in a semi final.

[bohsmug]

It's less gates overall but for me if you're keeping a system where 5th place gets a playoff spot then it should be 1-leg semi finals. 2nd is at home to 5th, 3rd is at home to 4th. That means every qualifying position counts. For the final you could play it at a neutral venue but I'd be in favour of giving home advantage to whoever finished higher in the table, most likely the team who finished 2nd as they'd have the easiest task in their semi final. If 5th were to qualify for the promotion/relegation playoff they are at a genuine disadvantage and would have to do it the hard way with 2 away games against teams that finished higher than them in the table.

--

So if the 1st division table finished as it is now it's:

SF1: (2nd)Cobh v (5th)Treaty - St Colman's Park
SF2: (3rd)Bray v (4th)UCD - Carlisle Grounds


For simplicity's sake let's say the home teams win. The final is:

(2nd) Cobh v (3rd)Bray - St Colman's Park

--

The first division playoff decides who represent the "promotion" aspect of the promotion/relegation playoff.

I don't agree that the team who finish 9th in the premier division should enter the first division playoffs. Your place in the premier division table dictates who represents the "relegation" aspect of the promotion/relegation playoff.
The first division playoffs were introduced as a means to negate some issues in the first division. The system is close to making sense, with competitive integrity.

[nigel-harps1954]

I just don't think second bottom in the Premier Division should be in the playoffs.

They shouldn't be awarded a second bite at the cherry as a result of a season of mediocrity.

[Nesta99]

I know full well why 5th place is a play off spot for the reasons given above, but I'm still against it. 5th in a 10 team league means you're not very good, and I don't believe that should earn you a shot at the playoff lottery.

What I'd like to see is a system where if 2nd place finishes a certain amount of points ahead of 3rd (lets say 10 points for arguments sake) then 2nd place just gets a bye to the next round and 5th place are out. Could maybe even do the same with 3rd ahead of 4th, as I don't believe 4th means you're good enough for a playoff either.

Also the final against the 9th premier team should go back to being 2 legs. It was way better craic and it's a much better measure of who the better team truly is

I wasnt trying to point out the obvious but more suggesting an alternative assessment of success - even if zero 5th place clubs progressed then the system could still be vindicated if success is broader ie more money directly and indirectly, increased fan engagement etc. Not one for the footballing purists but maybe superficially pragmatic in a financially struggling division.

The play-off lottery can help break a trend now and again of the relegated sides being financially able to dominate and form can count over finances.

[bohsmug]

I just don't think second bottom in the Premier Division should be in the playoffs.

They shouldn't be awarded a second bite at the cherry as a result of a season of mediocrity.

It's opinion so fair enough. I think it would be unusual to automatically relegate 20% of the division each year (in European leagues anyway, don't know about the rest of the world). I did find 2 examples though, Albania and Faroes have 10 team leagues with 2 automatically relegated. The rest seem to be closer to 10% automatically (plus a playoff) when the number of teams is small and closer to 15% when the number of teams is 18-20.

I personally don't think it's unfair, although I get that the 9th place team in the premier would be likely to have a budget advantage. In Ireland only the top 8 teams in the country are guaranteed to stay in the top flight, I don't think that's too much. 9th has jeopardy. In this decade so far the 1st division playoff winners have a marginally better record in promotion/relegation playoff than the 9th place team in premier.

[legendz]

Bray v Treaty final coming up on Sunday. Cobh must be sickened after pushing Dundalk for the league title.

[nr637]

Bray v Treaty final coming up on Sunday. Cobh must be sickened after pushing Dundalk for the league title.

The fact that McDermott walked, definetly had an effect on the players. Assistant Richie Holland did not have the same skill on the sidelines to encourage the players. As the first 11 picked itself, the manager's input was vital. Tommy Barrett's expierence on the otyher hand shown throiugh over for the two-leg fixtures as they were well organised and put a plan in place for both games and took advantage of any uncertainty in the Cobh camp.

And it worked.

[legendz]

Bray and Treaty have a 5 day build up for First Division Play-Off Final tomorrow. The winner will have 5 days to get ready for Premier Division Promotion/Relegation Play-Off. Bray favourites but Treaty will be bouyed by their semi final win over one of their Munster rivals.

Waterford lie in wait ahead of the Premier Division Promotion/Relegation Play-Off.

[Neish]

Bray v Treaty final coming up on Sunday. Cobh must be sickened after pushing Dundalk for the league title.

Cobh finished 21 points ahead of Treaty, it would be sickening if Treaty then got promoted from a Cobh fan POV

[Kiki Balboa]

Really enjoyable game between Treaty and Bray.

Both teams look dangerous. Very equal.

[Dermobohs]

Bray it is, have they a fighting chance at Waterford?be tough enough for them bit of quality in that blues side.

[Neish]

Bray it is, have they a fighting chance at Waterford?be tough enough for them bit of quality in that blues side.

From a purely selfish Harps POV i hope Waterford win, trips to Waterford & Cork instead of Dundalk & Bray will add significantly to travel expenses for the club next season which were already well ahead of everyone with the possible exception of Derry

[EatYerGreens]

Bray it is, have they a fighting chance at Waterford?be tough enough for them bit of quality in that blues side.

If Waterford go down there'll be no Munster representation in the top tier next year (and not for the first time). Pretty mad really when you think that 3 of the State's 5 core/largest cities are in Munster.

[Nesta99]

Estimated 6 hours total travel x 2 to Dundalk/Bray this season, 9 hours to Waterford/Cork x 2 so round trip difference of 8 hours x 2 away games each = 16hrs difference. Its not insignificant but impact really depends on scheduling. Some coach companies charged by time rather than milage so a 4 or 8 hour round trip in the evening was full day cost. Dont know whether thats the same now. The other side of things is that those trips have to be reciprocated so there is balance. Get promoted to save money....most trips to Dublin/Drogheda hopefully Dundalk, Sligo and Derry also!!

Its probably stating the obvious based on league position but Bray are more likely to have shot at bating Waterford. Its unlikely but its a 2nd year in a play-off final so that might count for something. Its hard to know which will be the freshest side, Bray have less football and under less pressure but Waterford have been operating under an intensity of must win games for a while now. Drogheda were in PD title form last year and Waterford have been inconsistent at best. Id rather Bray were promoted if Dundalk are and Waterfrod stay up if Dundalk stay in the 1st.