Next Senior Men's Team Manager - Runners and Riders

[WexCar.]

"The advantage of what I would call the typical African player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him, [he is] a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that," Sagnol said. Explaining himself, he continued: "Football is also [about] technique, intelligence. You need a bit of everything. You need Nordics too, Nordics are good."

Thats the comment from Sagnol. If you want make excuses for him and try find ways to justify it a long hard look in the mirror is needed!

Not really aware of this Sagnol situation apart from what I have read here and on the manager thread, but in reading that extract purely from a football perspective my first interpretation is that African players are cheaper to sign as they are more raw and in need of more coaching on the technical and tactical areas. He didn't say they couldn't be coached or be top players. He also doesn't necessarily say Nordics are better but only that you need what they bring to a team.

Is there a full transcript of what was said or was the above everything? If that is all that was said I can see how people would not be happy being called cheap, less skilled and lacking football intelligence (the same has been said of the Irish by many Europeans over the years), it seems more a statement to the quality of coaching than biological racial inferiorities.

[Razors left peg]

The advantage of the typical Irish player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him. He is a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that. Football is also about technique, intelligence.

Racist? Or true?

How long are Everton fans singing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman? Is that racist? How often are Irish players described as technically inferior but well up for it? Is that racist?

Nothing in that about heritage either, despite how eager you are to bring it into things.

Some people just get off on getting offended to be honest.

Well yeah first of all it would be a bit racist to say Irish people lack intelligence. Isnt that the old racist joke the Brits used for years. Bit weird that you would try use that as an example to say something else isnt racist.... might show a lack of intelligence actually!

But even leaving that part aside, Africa isnt one country. Instead of trying to use Ireland for comparison wouldnt you have to use another continent? Unless of course you just think all Africans are the same, which again leads to other questions....

[Diggs246]

Well yeah first of all it would be a bit racist to say Irish people lack intelligence. Isnt that the old racist joke the Brits used for years. Bit weird that you would try use that as an example to say something else isnt racist.... might show a lack of intelligence actually!

But even leaving that part aside, Africa isnt one country. Instead of trying to use Ireland for comparison wouldnt you have to use another continent? Unless of course you just think all Africans are the same, which again leads to other questions....

This is spot on.. when Sagnol said African players in my opinion he is referring to black people from that continent
I don't think he is including white South Africans or white Zimbabweans in his "analysis". I might be wrong and I actually hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Again he refers to White players as Nordics...who says that?

[Razors left peg]

This is spot on.. when Sagnol said African players in my opinion he is referring to black people from that continent
I don't think he is including white South Africans or white Zimbabweans in his "analysis". I might be wrong and I actually hope I'm wrong, but I doubt it.

Again he refers to White players as Nordics...who says that?

Morocco didnt show much of a lack of intelligence in the last world cup.... maybe they are just pale enough!

[CraftyToePoke]

The advantage of the typical Irish player is that he isn't expensive when you sign him. He is a player who is ready for combat, but football isn't just about that. Football is also about technique, intelligence.

Racist? Or true?

How long are Everton fans singing about how little they paid for Séamus Coleman? Is that racist? How often are Irish players described as technically inferior but well up for it? Is that racist?

Nothing in that about heritage either, despite how eager you are to bring it into things.

Some people just get off on getting offended to be honest.

Strawman comparison in its entirety and underhanded deflection.

That's before you get to the many Africans from several countries who were playing top European level at that time, making what he said wrong, factually wrong, before you begin to examine the other aspects of it. We still await one Irish player at that level.

You agree these players got up to that level just by running hard ? You fine with Sagnol saying that ?

Interesting. Though not completely surprising.

[pineapple stu]

Well yeah first of all it would be a bit racist to say Irish people lack intelligence.

He's clearly talking about footballing intelligence, not general IQ. But you go ahead and twist his words to insert your own offence anyway.

Strawman comparison in its entirety and underhanded deflection.

A dismissal with no attempt to engage in the point? I'm shocked. No, not shocked. Unsurprised is the word I'm looking for.

That's before you get to the many Africans from several countries who were playing top European level at that time, making what he said wrong, factually wrong

Do you often use the absolute elite to make generalisations about a whole group of people Crafty? Or are just doing doing so here?

(BTW, you avoided the question looking to clarify that "many" people took offence - how many? I haven't seen many at all complaining about it.)

Would you use Roy Keane or Ronnie Whelan to extrapolate about Irish players in England in general? Is it wrong, factually wrong, to say Irish-born players are lacking in technical skills compared to those who come through other leagues because Roy Keane played for Cobh and made it to the very top?

The reality is Africa - in general - has poorly funded leagues (largely because Europe insists on taking any player with any sort of ability when they're young and cheap) and that translates into poor facilities and poor coaching compared to Europe. This is an undeniable fact. That some African-born players make it to the very top doesn't change that fact.

He may have generalised a bit, because it was an off-the-cuff remark at a press conference (I think). But it's not racist.

[Stuttgart88]

The reality is Africa - in general - has poorly funded leagues (largely because Europe insists on taking any player with any sort of ability when they're young and cheap) and that translates into poor facilities and poor coaching compared to Europe. This is an undeniable fact. That some African-born players make it to the very top doesn't change that fact.

He may have generalised a bit, because it was an off-the-cuff remark at a press conference (I think). But it's not racist

Then he could have said African players aren't as well coached as players from other parts of the world. But he used the word "intelligence" and then merely qualified it with "footballing intelligence". He also compared African players' "mentality" to Nordic players' mentality. Now, of all the places to focus on why compare Africa to Scandinavia? I can't put my finger on it, what is different between a generic African and a generic Scandinavian? I'm struggling here...

As JRG said, he was given the chance to explain and apologise and he gave a limp explanation and a non-apology.

Would you use Roy Keane or Ronnie Whelan to extrapolate about Irish players in England in general? Is it wrong, factually wrong, to say Irish-born players are lacking in technical skills compared to those who come through other leagues because Roy Keane played for Cobh and made it to the very top?

But skills are developed, intelligence isn't. "Football intelligence" of course comes with innate and learnt skills, and is dependent on coaching. He really really could have explained his comments properly if he wanted to but chose not to and that's why I've no sympathy for him and I think his comments were racist.

[John83]

Lads, could we knock the Sagnol discussion on the head please? This thread is for discussing Robbie Keane, and whatever value the comparison of their situations may have had was exhausted a couple of pages ago.

[pineapple stu]

Then he could have said African players aren't as well coached as players from other parts of the world. But he used the word "intelligence" and then merely qualified it with "footballing intelligence".

I'm sure when he used his words - which were in a different language - in a throw-away manner in a press conference he was thinking "I wonder how some random fellas in a different country speaking a different language are going to react to a translated version of my comments in ten years' time?"

For me it sums up all that's nasty about social media. People looking to be offended picking up on something said years ago which they wouldn't otherwise ever have heard, twisting it to suit their own agenda (RLP's comments on heritage, which are irrelevant) and ignoring other parts (such as your claim that Sagnol chose not to explain his comments or clarify he meant footballing intelligence - despite the fact he actually did exactly that at the time) and blowing the whole thing wildly out of proportion.

Anyways, as John83 says, it's a matter for another thread, so I'll leave it there.

[Stuttgart88]

I'm sure when he used his words - which were in a different language - in a throw-away manner in a press conference he was thinking "I wonder how some random fellas in a different country speaking a different language are going to react to a translated version of my comments in ten years' time?"

For me it sums up all that's nasty about social media. People looking to be offended picking up on something said years ago which they wouldn't otherwise ever have heard, twisting it to suit their own agenda (RLP's comments on heritage, which are irrelevant) and ignoring other parts (such as your claim that Sagnol chose not to explain his comments or clarify he meant footballing intelligence - despite the fact he actually did exactly that at the time) and blowing the whole thing wildly out of proportion.

Anyways, as John83 says, it's a matter for another thread, so I'll leave it there.

Sure, you just leave it there with a post full of wrong, exaggerated and disingenuous claims and a thoroughly lame defence of the comments he made. Good man.

[Diggs246]

I'm sure when he used his words - which were in a different language - in a throw-away manner in a press conference he was thinking "I wonder how some random fellas in a different country speaking a different language are going to react to a translated version of my comments in ten years' time?"

For me it sums up all that's nasty about social media. People looking to be offended picking up on something said years ago which they wouldn't otherwise ever have heard, twisting it to suit their own agenda (RLP's comments on heritage, which are irrelevant) and ignoring other parts (such as your claim that Sagnol chose not to explain his comments or clarify he meant footballing intelligence - despite the fact he actually did exactly that at the time) and blowing the whole thing wildly out of proportion.

Anyways, as John83 says, it's a matter for another thread, so I'll leave it there.

I actually liked some of the stuff the progressive democrats stood for, but you are sliding into Niall Boylan territory Pineapple

[CraftyToePoke]

(BTW, you avoided the question looking to clarify that "many" people took offence - how many? I haven't seen many at all complaining about it.)

While taking on board and agreeing with the mod request to leave this one be, a request already disregarded by you, I want to address this, Jolly Red Giant joined the discussion immediately after and spoke of the players who have come out since and the Bordeaux players who were strong armed into defending Sagnol at the time. There is also the half decade employment gap in his coaching prime, and the fact that The International League against Racism and Anti-Semitism (LICRA) said in a statement: "These abject theories are those that during the course of history have led to some kinds of men and women having their humanity denied."

Still, nothing to see here according to you, just a few misguided lads online a decade later is it ?
Ok.

I think when dealing with this as a society the moron on the street using slurs is one thing, however it is those who refuse to acknowledge the wrong, concede, or make right & and even in your case, defend sentiments like those expressed are the far greater problem.

I drove this discussion over the last days, on here, to see if there would be discontent with his appointment, were it to happen, I think it is absolutely clear there would be.

Mod, apologies for this but I am done now.

[Razors left peg]

The reason for Sagnol being brought up in this thread was the comparison to Robbie and how hirable they both would be for the FAI. Some are uncomfortable with Robbie based on where he currently works, I disagree but I can see the logical reasoning for that. Robbie will I hope most likely move on this summer after a successful season on the pitch and I think there will be a number of clubs lining up for him based on his debut season.

Sagnol also had a reasonably decent start to his club managerial career in France, but strangely wasnt able to get a club to touch him as a manager again afterwards. Im sure that had absolutely nothing to do with his perfectly fine comments about Africans in football. Youd think that a few Nordic owners of clubs would have had the intelligence to see through his comments and take them for what he really meant, not what he actually said.

I hope our discussion about him becomes irrelevant and he doesnt get near the Ireland job, because if he does and these comments become part of the public discourse in Ireland I firmly believe he'd be forced out of the job within months of taking over, much like Neil Lennon would have been. The FAI need to be able to see around corners on this one and see what would come their way.

Sagnol would have a few defenders in the country if he was hired, as proven on here, but for the most part they'd be of the ilk of that guy we all know who starts sentences with "Im not racist, but....".


Anyways, we'll leave it there so

[CraftyToePoke]

Anyways, we'll leave it there so

It was a good chat, not a great chat Billlll.

[Diggs246]

The reason for Sagnol being brought up in this thread was the comparison to Robbie and how hirable they both would be for the FAI. Some are uncomfortable with Robbie based on where he currently works, I disagree but I can see the logical reasoning for that. Robbie will I hope most likely move on this summer after a successful season on the pitch and I think there will be a number of clubs lining up for him based on his debut season.

Sagnol also had a reasonably decent start to his club managerial career in France, but strangely wasnt able to get a club to touch him as a manager again afterwards. Im sure that had absolutely nothing to do with his perfectly fine comments about Africans in football. Youd think that a few Nordic owners of clubs would have had the intelligence to see through his comments and take them for what he really meant, not what he actually said.

I hope our discussion about him becomes irrelevant and he doesnt get near the Ireland job, because if he does and these comments become part of the public discourse in Ireland I firmly believe he'd be forced out of the job within months of taking over, much like Neil Lennon would have been. The FAI need to be able to see around corners on this one and see what would come their way.

Sagnol would have a few defenders in the country if he was hired, as proven on here, but for the most part they'd be of the ilk of that guy we all know who starts sentences with "Im not racist, but....".


Anyways, we'll leave it there so

My personal "favourite"

" Where are you really from"....... If you've been unfortunate enough to witness that one

[Jolly Red Giant]

Well Neil Lennon is out of the picture at last - appointed manager of Rapid Bucharest - oh the fools, the fools

[Jolly Red Giant]

And while it should be in the other thread - Sagnol is a racist - his apology was a non-apology apology - and he has never made any effort to demonstrate he is not a racist or retract his comments, despite it coming up regularly.

[backstothewall]

Fatih Terim has been sacked by Panathinaikos. Loads of international experience,.

[Razors left peg]

I'm very tempted to wipe the last few pages.
Very. Tempted.

Its a legitimate conversation about a guy who is currently favorite for the Ireland job. The comparison to Robbies situation made it relevant to this thread so deleting would make me wonder whats the point of discussions on here.

[osarusan]

Maybe move the Sagnol-related posts to the 'Runners and riders' thread.