Ukraine V Republic of Ireland - Tuesday, 14th June 2022 - 2022/23 UEFA Nations League

[Razors left peg]

Have a lot of thoughts on the game after finally watching late this evening, but my 2 biggest ones are...

1. I jumped off the Kenny bandwagon too quickly. He's learned a lot in this window and we'll be better for it.

2. Nathan Collins is going to be our best player since Roy. He's incredible. Has everything to play at the very highest level and if Premiership scouts don't have him top of their list of players this summer there is a lot that need firing.

As for everything else Eirambler summed up most of my thoughts nicely

[samhaydenjr]

Harsh. He actually put in a faultless performance. What do you expect him to do, score?

Well Travers scored on his senior debut from 70 yards and then scored an Allisson-esque headed equaliser in the last minute of a cup final, so why not? Kelleher's supposed to be the best with the ball at his feet!

Seriously though, pretty decent performance with a great goal from Collins. Really, he's starting to look like Van Dijk in defence mixed in with Matip-style slaloms forward - it wasn't his first foray deep into the Ukrainian half with the ball at his feet. And big question: given that Paul McGrath played a significant amount of his international career in midfield, could Collins become our greatest centre-half ever? I think this was the first of many immense performances from him.

Second question: is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)? I though Lenihan did well tonight and he does like to play a sweeping diagonal ball forward from time-to-time - perfect for somebody like Obafemi to chase?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

[Olé Olé]

I think Molumby is up there in our most improved player category.

I actually thought he was much braver last night in terms of where he sought and accepted the ball than v Scotland. I thought he had a good game against Scotland but he shied away from making himself available for the ball in a way that Cullen never does. This was evident in some of our short goal kick **** ups. He looked far more comfortable last night and provided a nice balance to Cullen in how he accepted the ball and aggressively pushed forward. There were a couple of instances of crossed wires with Browne in possession. Stick Doherty right wing back and Molumby would get a serious dig out, like Hendrick benefits from.

Looking forward to seeing how this season pans out for him. Last night implied to me that his ceiling is higher than I would have thought. And he has serious confidence going into it.

[third policeman]

Well Travers scored on his senior debut from 70 yards and then scored an Allisson-esque headed equaliser in the last minute of a cup final, so why not? Kelleher's supposed to be the best with the ball at his feet!

Seriously though, pretty decent performance with a great goal from Collins. Really, he's starting to look like Van Dijk in defence mixed in with Matip-style slaloms forward - it wasn't his first foray deep into the Ukrainian half with the ball at his feet. And big question: given that Paul McGrath played a significant amount of his international career in midfield, could Collins become our greatest centre-half ever? I think this was the first of many immense performances from him.

Second question: is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)? I though Lenihan did well tonight and he does like to play a sweeping diagonal ball forward from time-to-time - perfect for somebody like Obafemi to chase?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

I’d honestly rate Duffy as a fifth choice CB going forward. Egan, Collins, Omabamidele and O’Shea all look better suited to our style.

[NeverFeltBetter]

Should have won that game, maybe would have with some better forward options on the field. The goal conceded was infuriating, but I did think the response was good, and it was also good that we didn't retreat into ourselves in the last 10 minutes.

We've been here before though, with terrible results followed by better results and then we use words like "progression" and "green shoots" and then it all falls apart again at the start of the next window. We've gotten four points from 12 in a group that the manager set his stall out to top, and as I said in the other thread I am really wary of the moving goalposts that seem to be a recurring thing with Kenny. I don't really have anymore confidence in him to maintain the kind of performances we saw in the last two games. He's saved his job with those results I'd imagine - again - but I still don't think he's the right person to be in charge.

[zero]

I've seen enough in the past couple of games to state with some confidence that this idea that we 'don't have the players' is largely nonsense. It's a very frustrating way of thinking - what's the point in even playing at all?

We absolutely have the squad to be competitive as has been demonstrated several times by now. I'd like to think we've learnt from the slow starts in the last two campaigns. A strong finish to this one could see us secure a playoff spot before qualifying proper begins which illustrates one of the benefits in remaining in league B.

Hopefully we'll stick with the 2 up front or at the very least have that as an option to quickly switch to if things are not going to plan.

[Eirambler]

2. If we finish bottom of the group, as one of the two worst teams, we end up as fourth seeds in Euro qualifying (so imperative we get at least 3 more points in September)

It's just a small clarification, but we can't end up as fourth seeds no matter what happens. There are 32 teams in the A and B divisions, but Germany qualify automatically and Russia have been booted out. So the worst ranked B division team will be ranked 30th for the qualifiers, which still makes them third seeds. So, even if Armenia don't get another point they'll still be third seeds as well.

[pineapple stu]

Interestingly, relegation means that there'll be some fourth seeds you really want to avoid and who are stronger than the third seeds. Turkey would be an obvious one. Greece seem to have got their act together and are the only side in the entire Nations League who are already promoted. Slovakia wouldn't be nice as a fourth seed either, and nor would Russia (if they're not still suspended). You'd take Armenia or Albania (third seeds) ahead of any of those.

And as it stands, England and France are second seeds. So you could have Spain, France, Ireland, Turkey, Bulgaria as a group, or you could have Hungary, Bosnia, Ireland, Luxembourg, Gibraltar and San Marino.

Though those kind of pitfalls are usually the way with qualifying groups.

[geysir]

It's just a small clarification, but we can't end up as fourth seeds no matter what happens. There are 32 teams in the A and B divisions, but Germany qualify automatically and Russia have been booted out. So the worst ranked B division team will be ranked 30th for the qualifiers, which still makes them third seeds. So, even if Armenia don't get another point they'll still be third seeds as well.

Seeing as you have checked it out (saves me the hassle), do the promoted teams from league C not replace the relegated teams from league B in the rankings for the euro qual 2024 draw?

edit - most probably not

[pineapple stu]

Not according to wiki anyway.

[tetsujin1979]

Am I reading that right - no league B team can be seeded first, but a League A team who finishes outside the top ten in that table will be seeded second?

[pineapple stu]

Seems to be right (although Czech Republic in eleventh are a top seed at the moment because Germany won't be in qualifying)

Seems to be straightforward 1-11 are the top seeds, 12-21 are second, 22-31 are third, 32-41 are fourth, 42-51 are fifth, and the others are sixth.

[liamoo11]

I actually thought he was much braver last night in terms of where he sought and accepted the ball than v Scotland. I thought he had a good game against Scotland but he shied away from making himself available for the ball in a way that Cullen never does. This was evident in some of our short goal kick **** ups. He looked far more comfortable last night and provided a nice balance to Cullen in how he accepted the ball and aggressively pushed forward. There were a couple of instances of crossed wires with Browne in possession. Stick Doherty right wing back and Molumby would get a serious dig out, like Hendrick benefits from.

Looking forward to seeing how this season pans out for him. Last night implied to me that his ceiling is higher than I would have thought. And he has serious confidence going into it.

I agree pn this. His passing was very crisp and forward looking last night while against Scotland he seemed to be intentionally turning down the option to pass forward in favor of the safe option. Seems to have totally ditched the headless chicken stuff which is kinda remarkable.

[geysir]

Not according to wiki anyway.

I've said it before but this development of the Nations League structure is just pure genius and standing the test of the time.

As well as doing away with friendlies, except for the most useless.

[paul_oshea]

A bit late to the game on this one so to speak. Think most things have been covered.

Willing on this occasion to give kenny the benefit of the doubt with the subs, but if Collins and Cullen played the most outfield minutes why did kenny take off Molumby and Knight? This led to us getting very lethargic and slowing it down in midfield and also lots of wrong options. We started doing what we did in the games against Armenia and Ukraine home and kept passing out to the wings. Then crosses not beating the first man. Mostly high balls with no one to aim for in the box anyway. It became frustrating. MClean couldn't kick the ball nevermind run, why wasnt he brought off and that was with 15 minutes remaining? I am still very concerned about the substitutions and the general game management. We seem to give ourselves a mountain to climb before we've even started walking. Lots still there that Kenny hasn't proved he knows is happening in front of him and how to fix it - sometimes hes the making of it.

I'm also quite concerned about Kenny and his camps, I feel like he settles at the end of a window, brings one or two new faces in and then changes what his strongest 11 is and we end up back at square one, which is poor start, panic stations, dont score and we're out of the running before it even begins.

I wonder what Ukraine thought of the 1-1 I'd say happy to just have the game over with no big deal but we were getting very excited about things.

That said the first half was great, we didn't press all the time unnecessarily and kept our shape great, ensuring if one went the rest stayed so they didnt pull us apart like they'd done in the first game. If we produced 90 mins like the 45 mins that first half I'd be happy.

[Stuttgart88]

Against Scotland? No he didn't?

Or do you mean the Ukraine goal at home last week? Damien Delaney analysed that on VM and said it there was little enough Kelleher could do. As a centre-back, he blamed the defenders.

Dave Henderson also analysed it. A goalkeeper criticised the goalkeeper! But Kelleher did fine. Good window for him all things considered. I'd still just about prefer Bazunu but I'm happy with our options. Bazunu, Keller, Travers in that order for me.

[Stuttgart88]

is there a case for sacrificing Duffy's aerial prowess, physicality and blocking ability for Lenihan's superior mobility and comfort with the ball at his feet, especially as we are playing out nowadays (see all of Scotland's chances)?

Final question: is it time to ditch 433 for 532 (or 352, depending on your outlook on life)? I was thinking this at half-time, only for Ukraine to find that gap in the corner behind McClean two minutes into the second.

Yes wrt Duffy. My recollection from his rare appearances under other managers is that Lenihan is a good attacking header of a ball too though.

Possibly wrt formation. Any good team will eye that channel between wing back and CB.

[Stuttgart88]

I watched the game in an Irish bar in Spain as I was away with work. Really enjoyed it. I felt we could be in for an uncomfortable night from the start but I thought we were competitive and quite accomplished all night. In my first ten years or so on this forum I'd bemoan how we never sought to engage good teams away from home in a good honest football match. That's exactly what we did on Tuesday and it was great to behold. It's also about as good a collective central midfield performance I've seen from us since isolated games in Paris (France in 2009, Sweden 2016). If we can continue to play like this we'll get much better results. Cullen is just fantastic imho, so brave on the ball.

I think Gary Breen in the Indo (paywall) was very telling. He was a firm Kenny sceptic for a long time but he seems won over on the back of the last two games and says that despite only 4 points from 12 this has actually been a very productive NL window. I'd actually agree. Of course the points haul is disappointing - although it's our best ever - but the team appears to be just a lot better than at the start of the window and we have learnt a lot.

As said above though, it'd be unbearably frustrating if we had another backward step soon but I'll take an optimistic view and think it won't happen. Scotland away will be tough but I doubt we'll be lame.

I'd be wary of assuming Obafemi will be available all the time though with his proneness to muscle injuries.

[Insidetherock]

I watched the game in an Irish bar in Spain as I was away with work. Really enjoyed it. I felt we could be in for an uncomfortable night from the start but I thought we were competitive and quite accomplished all night. In my first ten years or so on this forum I'd bemoan how we never sought to engage good teams away from home in a good honest football match. That's exactly what we did on Tuesday and it was great to behold. It's also about as good a collective central midfield performance I've seen from us since isolated games in Paris (France in 2009, Sweden 2016). If we can continue to play like this we'll get much better results. Cullen is just fantastic imho, so brave on the ball.

I think Gary Breen in the Indo (paywall) was very telling. He was a firm Kenny sceptic for a long time but he seems won over on the back of the last two games and says that despite only 4 points from 12 this has actually been a very productive NL window. I'd actually agree. Of course the points haul is disappointing - although it's our best ever - but the team appears to be just a lot better than at the start of the window and we have learnt a lot.

As said above though, it'd be unbearably frustrating if we had another backward step soon but I'll take an optimistic view and think it won't happen. Scotland away will be tough but I doubt we'll be lame.

I'd be wary of assuming Obafemi will be available all the time though with his proneness to muscle injuries.

All you can do is hope with Obafemi.. but no doubt Swansea will be looking after him too as they want a fit and ready Obafemi every week, not just every few months like Ireland do

Way way back long ago, after the WC losses in the first few games, I said that before Ireland would have to play a potential play off for Euro 24, they'd nearly 24-28 games to get it right.

(6 WC, 6 NL's, 8-10 EQ's, and 4-6 friendlies)

I've cheered Kenny on.. and pulled my hair out screaming at him. He's taken forward steps, and backward steps. Things worked, and things went awry.

But if anyone thinks we're not in a better place right now, than we were 3 1/2 yrs ago, they either haven't a clue, or are simply lying to themselves.

There must be very few international teams in Europe, or globally, relying on so many young players. But those players will grow up.

We're potentially looking at 3 PL playing keepers.

Collins should be playing CB this season, and Omobomidele, O Shea, Lenihan, will all be operating (or should be), at the higher levels of the Championship, potentially playing PL next season at relatively young ages.

Doherty, back fully fit, should be back playing regularly in the PL.

Midfield.. we need to strengthen the area at the highest levels.. but there is potential there too. Even beyond the fact Knight could probably play PL, and Cullen high level Championship, maybe its the season for Smallbone to breakthrough. Kilkenny at Bournemouth. Molumby will hopefully be playing regularly at a high level Championship at West Brom, and maybe back playing PL in a season or two.

And up front, Obafemi, Parrott.. along with in a couple of years Ferguson.. could all be playing PL football.

And ok, there's a lot of "wishful thinking" there.. but why not feel optimistic

For years we've been lucky to have one, maybe two Irish players playing regularly in the PL (or other higher European leagues)... maybe now we're beginning to see the start of a small conveyor of talent arising..

Wouldn't it be great

[Olé Olé]

I will say one thing - no criticism here and I am probably guilty of it myself but there's a bit of an out of sight out of mind slant on the attack and defence situations with regards to Idah and Omobamidele.

A lot of commentary about how we may have arrived upon a strike partnership in Parrott and Obafemi. I'd back Idah to get a cool 10+ goals next season at Norwich if he can get back fit and playing soon. He looked very good before his injury. His style of play will present an interesting option for Kenny, particularly when you consider he was used almost like Parrott was in the last two games i.e. 9 but willing and happy to come a little deeper. The beauty for him in doing this is his ability with back to goal. I know Parrott and he didn't click v Hungary but both lads were in different places at that time.

All things being equal in terms of club form you'd still be looking at Obafemi and Parrott after the Scotland magic they produced. But Idah is a serious option.

At the back, I have heard Omobamidele's name a lot. Mostly in the context of Coleman's season and Duffy's season and concession of possession against Scotland on those two panicky occasions. Egan left, Collins centre and Omobamidele right has a nice balance to it. But I wouldn't be ruling out Coleman and Duffy just.