All-Ireland League Thread

[EalingGreen]

You can't just wish away the Irish League's two worst supported clubs for comparison purposes. If you're going down that road then lop off the bottom two in the LOI as well and see how they compare.

Of course you can. It's comparing the top 10 supported clubs in NI with the top 10 supported clubs in ROI.

I mean, if the IL only had, say, 8 teams, but the LOI had 16, would you consider a simple average for each league as being valid for comparative purposes?

Especially whe the variation in attendances between UCD and everyone else in the LOI PD last year was much wider than between Stute/Warrenpoint and everyone else in the north.

Absolutely not so.

UCD's crowds were closer to the teams above them, in relative/percentage terms, than Stute and Point were to the teams above them. and that's ignoring Harps, who were closer again to the next lowest team (Waterford).

[And don't forget that flooding forced Stute to move from their home ground in Drumahoe to the Brandywell, which must have hurt their attendances even further.]

I suspect the average would have fallen a bit in the north had the season played out as well. In January it looked like 4 or 5 (?) clubs could win the league. By lockdown it was basically Linfield's title, with I think Coleraine in with a shout and everyone else essentially out of the running. So crowds would naturally have tailed off a bit at a number of clubs because of that.

Still - good to see crowds on the up in the north all the same.

Really?

When the league was suspended, LFC were four points ahead of Coleraine, with 7 games still to play. And since the league split after 22 games, those games were all against the other top five teams, inc. Coleraine.

Meanwhile, there were only 3 points separating teams 3rd to 6th, in the chase for a possible European place.

In any case, crowds have been rising season-on-season for several years now, irrespective of how competitive each has been.

What's happening with the Irish Cup this year ?

Cliftonville play Glentoran and Ballymena play Coleraine in a double header behind closed doors at Windsor on Mon. 27 July.

The final is at the same venue on the following Friday (31st). It is just possible that some fans may be allowed into the final, though I'd say it's still (long) odds-against, not least because it's being televised live on BBC NI (also the two semi's).

[EalingGreen]

UCD may well have even been higher than those other cliubs' average if we're honest. But my point was that the gap between UCD and the other LOI clubs was bigger than the gap between Stute/Point and the other IL clubs. So cutting off the weaker team(s) skews the average much more in NI than in the LOI.

I'll give you the figures of the lowest attendances for IL 2019/20 until suspension, and LOI for 2019, and you'll see you're completely wrong.

Warrenpoint - 249
Institute - 282
Carrick R - 621

UCD - 739
Finn Harps - 1,158
Waterford - 1,597

The point being that the bottom two clubs in the IL dragged down the overall average in both absolute and percentage terms, more than the bottom two* in the LOI PD.

And that's comparing 12th and 11th (IL) versus 10th and 9th (LOI)


* - I say "two", since citing UCD and ignoring Harps friggs the figures even more.

[Charlie Darwin]

Some interesting stats from the NIFL:

"Although the Premiership season was curtailed because of the Covid-19 pandemic, attendances still showed a healthy increase from the previous campaign.

The Premiership had a total of 221,733 paying customers in the 186 matches that were played during the 2019/20 season, which worked out at an average of 1,192 per game, an increase of 103 on last season's figures.

Champions Linfield were again the best supported club in the country with an average home attendance of 2,365, though a rejuvenated Glentoran were the second most watched side with 2,060 on average attending their matches at the Oval, a jump of 30% on last term.

There was also an increase in support for runners-up Coleraine as Oran Kearney's side attracted an average of 1,571 spectators per match through the turnstiles, while new boys Larne also showed up well in fourth with an average of 1,421.

Over the last few years there has been an upsurge in the crowds attending Premiership games across the province. For example this season's average of 1,192 per game is an impressive 37.1% higher than the average recorded for the 2013/14 season."

I know these don't really compare with the LOI PD, but if you took Institute and Warrenpoint out, then the 10 team average would look a bit closer.

EDIT: Just done the arithmetic, w.o. Stute and Point, the top 10 averaged 1,370, versus 2,159 for LOI PD (2019).

Add to that Portadown being there next season and it should get another boost.

Those are great figures for Glentoran. Goes to show the bump you can get if you bring in better players.

[nigel-harps1954]

Of course you can. It's comparing the top 10 supported clubs in NI with the top 10 supported clubs in ROI.

I mean, if the IL only had, say, 8 teams, but the LOI had 16, would you consider a simple average for each league as being valid for comparative purposes?

Pedantic I know....but it's not the top 10 supported LOI clubs. There were 3 clubs in the First Division last season who averaged more than UCD in the Premier Division.

[EalingGreen]

Those are great figures for Glentoran. Goes to show the bump you can get if you bring in better players.

Obv better players and results etc are a huge help.

But in truth, Glens are really only attracting back fans who had drifted away during nearly a decade of dross. For instance, they had 6k for the all-ticket game at home to Linfield on Boxing Day - the maximum the Health & Safety loons would allow into The Oval. The potential for big support if/when they got their act together was always there.

Whereas Larne, for instance, are clearly attracting new (young?) support enthused by the developments which are underway at Inver Park. I hope they can sustain it.

[EalingGreen]

Pedantic I know....but it's not the top 10 supported LOI clubs. There were 3 clubs in the First Division last season who averaged more than UCD in the Premier Division.

That is a fair point.

Although I suspect Portadown, at least, drew bigger crowds in the Championship than Stute or Point. (Or certainly will next season, when they take Stute's place)

[EalingGreen]

One thing that's mad about the north though. Apart from Greater Belfast and Derry, the next level of size town there seems to be the 20-30,000 people bracket, with very few places in between. Ballymena, Coleraine, Portadown, Dungannon, Lurgan, Antrim, Larne, Omagh, Newry. They're all in that same 20-30,000 size bracket. It's weird that all the main regional towns are roughly the same size, and there's nothing bigger until you get up to Derry and Greater Belfast.

Meant to say, the one town you missed out was Bangor, which has a population of around 60k - hadn't thought it so big myself, tbf. As well as football, the town used to have a thriving senior rugby club, but like numerous others, they've suffered very badly since the advent of professionalism. Hockey is also quite big, I believe.

Anyhow, Bangor FC were long a senior team in the old Irish League, without ever doing very much at all. Then they seemed to hit all sorts of financial troubles in more recent years, eventually withdrawing voluntarily from the Premiership in 2009. Although it spared them the embarrassment of going bust, they soon dropped right down into Intermediate football, where they languished for a few years.

The good news, however, is that they're now showing a bit of ambition and talking about getting back into senior football:

Bangor were traditionally a permanent part of the Irish League's top-flight, but the last decade has seen the Seasiders plummet down the divisions and out of senior football.

They are now back in the Irish League's third-tier and [manager Lee] Feeney has not shied away from setting his new players very definite targets.

"Bangor is a big club, I understand the pressure that will come with the job and I will embrace it. First and foremost we have to get out of this Premier Intermediate. I believe it's possible to get back into the Premiership within three years."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/53093786

Meanwhile, from this list of Irish towns (NI and ROI), you'll see that two other NI towns break the 30k mark. However, Newtownabbey (65k) is more an administrative concoction than a "town" proper (it's all Belfast, really), whilst Lisburn (45k) is morphing into Belfast by the day:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._by_population

[EalingGreen]

Now that's what I call a proper All-Ireland League proposal....

"Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.

The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs -- Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United -- to discuss grievances regarding their participation agreement with the FAI and the wage cap thats coming into place next season."
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-26337983.html

Wage cap? We should be allowed to spend whatever we want. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

(Previously discussed here on this forum. In 2007.
https://foot.ie/threads/78826-Secret...+ireland+towns )

[Martinho II]

Now that's what I call a proper All-Ireland League proposal....

"Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.

The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs -- Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United -- to discuss grievances regarding their participation agreement with the FAI and the wage cap thats coming into place next season."
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-26337983.html

Wage cap? We should be allowed to spend whatever we want. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

(Previously discussed here on this forum. In 2007.
https://foot.ie/threads/78826-Secret...+ireland+towns )

Brilliant news I strongly think that if its an AIL I would be confident that gates would increase both sides of the border imo. BTW when Roddy Collins was manager of Bangor in the mid 90s were they a top flight side?

[Martinho II]

Of course you can. It's comparing the top 10 supported clubs in NI with the top 10 supported clubs in ROI.

I mean, if the IL only had, say, 8 teams, but the LOI had 16, would you consider a simple average for each league as being valid for comparative purposes?


Absolutely not so.

UCD's crowds were closer to the teams above them, in relative/percentage terms, than Stute and Point were to the teams above them. and that's ignoring Harps, who were closer again to the next lowest team (Waterford).

[And don't forget that flooding forced Stute to move from their home ground in Drumahoe to the Brandywell, which must have hurt their attendances even further.]

Really?

When the league was suspended, LFC were four points ahead of Coleraine, with 7 games still to play. And since the league split after 22 games, those games were all against the other top five teams, inc. Coleraine.

Meanwhile, there were only 3 points separating teams 3rd to 6th, in the chase for a possible European place.

In any case, crowds have been rising season-on-season for several years now, irrespective of how competitive each has been.

Cliftonville play Glentoran and Ballymena play Coleraine in a double header behind closed doors at Windsor on Mon. 27 July.

The final is at the same venue on the following Friday (31st). It is just possible that some fans may be allowed into the final, though I'd say it's still (long) odds-against, not least because it's being televised live on BBC NI (also the two semi's).

I do watch the NI football regularly highlights wise but live matches wise I dont remember the IFA cup(apologises if I have title wrong) semis being on telly last year?

[Charlie Darwin]

Obv better players and results etc are a huge help.

But in truth, Glens are really only attracting back fans who had drifted away during nearly a decade of dross. For instance, they had 6k for the all-ticket game at home to Linfield on Boxing Day - the maximum the Health & Safety loons would allow into The Oval. The potential for big support if/when they got their act together was always there.

Whereas Larne, for instance, are clearly attracting new (young?) support enthused by the developments which are underway at Inver Park. I hope they can sustain it.

To be fair, it's probably the first time in 50 years there's been something to do in Larne other than get the boat!

[Bucket]

Martinho, have another read of that AIL proposal 😉

[Nesta99]

Now that's what I call a proper All-Ireland League proposal....

"Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.

The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs -- Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United -- to discuss grievances regarding their participation agreement with the FAI and the wage cap thats coming into place next season."
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-26337983.html

Wage cap? We should be allowed to spend whatever we want. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

(Previously discussed here on this forum. In 2007.
https://foot.ie/threads/78826-Secret...+ireland+towns )

Ironic (or maybe desperation) that this was being pushed heavily by Drogheda. I wont do the bitter stuff on Dundalk among others being excluded at the time. My old friend Terry Collin's believed that people from North Louth was a ligitimate catchment for DUFC in the context of only having 1 Louth club in an AIL and that their new stadium would entice Dundalk fans to abandon Dundalk. There was significant money guaranteed also. Clubs soon started going pop before it had a chance with Drogs, Cork, Derry and Bohs especially (I doubt Cobhs with double relegation would have been in the mix for an invite only league... and Galway United only had a a fancy DVD pushed by a shamed Banker). A year earlier even and the money involved may have saved clubs before the pinch kicked in.

[Martinho II]

Martinho, have another read of that AIL proposal ��

Bucket had a look at DMCD piece ten years ago.Have to agree with NI clubs having too many clubs in an All Island League if proposed and it should be by the size of NI and ROI individually and they have more divisions down below it too to facilitate the other clubs that would be left out originally in the 1st place, I apologise if I jumped the gun a bit Bucket!

[EalingGreen]

I do watch the NI football regularly highlights wise but live matches wise I dont remember the IFA cup(apologises if I have title wrong) semis being on telly last year?

No they weren't.

I think it's just desperation from BBC NI for something to show, at a time when new programmes aren't being made. They're probably also missing their regular Sat. a'noon coverage too, minimal though it is.

[passinginterest]

Now that's what I call a proper All-Ireland League proposal....

"Advanced discussions about the introduction of an All Ireland soccer league have taken place between clubs from both sides of the border and interested stakeholders, with the intention of drafting a New Year proposal that will be too good for the FAI and IFA to refuse.

The Irish Independent has learned that top eircom League sides have been involved in secret talks with counterparts in the North and with the backing of significant third party encouragement in the hope of bringing the project to fruition.

The origins of the initiative came from meetings between the six leading eircom League full time clubs -- Cork City, Drogheda United, Derry City, St Patrick's Athletic, Bohemians and Galway United -- to discuss grievances regarding their participation agreement with the FAI and the wage cap thats coming into place next season."
https://www.independent.ie/sport/soc...-26337983.html

Wage cap? We should be allowed to spend whatever we want. I mean, what could possibly go wrong?

(Previously discussed here on this forum. In 2007.
https://foot.ie/threads/78826-Secret...+ireland+towns )

The more things change eh... some good regular posters back then that haven't been seen in a long time. Funny to see Arkaga mentioned as being at the center of things, they worked out well!

[Mr_Parker]

Pedantic I know....but it's not the top 10 supported LOI clubs. There were 3 clubs in the First Division last season who averaged more than UCD in the Premier Division.

If attendances are to be compared, then per head of population is important in calculations.

[nigel-harps1954]

If attendances are to be compared, then per head of population is important in calculations.

Not sure why that's relevant, but yeah, I agree.

[EalingGreen]

If attendances are to be compared, then per head of population is important in calculations.

Interesting, no doubt, but "important"?

I'm not so sure it is, tbh. To take an extreme example, Indonesia has a population of a quarter of a billion, whereas Iceland has just 300k.

Or closer to home, Burnley's is 90k (and falling), whereas Milton Keynes' is 230k (and growing).

The existence of a football culture and tradition which will support domestic football is much more important. Scotland's population, for example, is not much more than ROI, yet they have a 4 division League set-up, a decent feeder system below that and a very widespread Junior football set-up.

And even if you take away the Two Ugly Sisters, they still maintain teams like Aberdeen, Hearts and Hibs etc which are a lot bigger than anything in Ireland, north or south.

Such is the importance of culture/tradition that if you don't have it, it's extremely hard to manufacture it, esp in somewhere like Ireland, where there is so much competition from Gaelic Football, Rugby and Hurling, even Cricket and Hockey, to name just team sports.

Which explains why a small town like Sligo (20k) supports a top tier football club, while Galway (80k) or Limerick (95k) struggle.

So that Dublin dominates the LOI heavily, while new clubs so regularly fail to become established (google the Parable of the Sower and the Seed).

I don't know the answer to this is, nor am I trying to score points for or against anyone, just saying it as I see it.

[Nesta99]

If attendances are to be compared, then per head of population is important in calculations.

It is also worth factoring in or a least looking at in this context, a per head of population % trend of attendances across Europe.