League of Ireland in Europe 2019

**oriel** · 14/08/2019, 9:17 AM

This Dundalk team is not good enough at this level in europe, it’s a simple as that. P6, W0, L3, D3, F2 A8, that’s a dreadful return. I thought after keeping two clean sheets v Riga it would improve, but apart from 45 mins v Qarabag it didn’t. We were never going through after being 0-1 down last night but if Hoban scored his pen it gets it back to 2-2 and a chance to get a result in the game, they then scored with probably only notable attack of the second half.

Dan Kelly not even used last night, his pace was badly missed, changing your centre half at HT strikes of picking the wrong man in the first place, not really any positives this year, and the team will need significant investment if they are to advance in Europe next season.

**bohsmug** · 14/08/2019, 10:02 AM

Dundalk are the best team in LOI but their days as an outstanding team are over. I don't really see Perth being able to bring them back up to that level either.

**sbgawa** · 14/08/2019, 10:21 AM

Originally Posted by Nesta99

You sure he isnt the hatstand Rovers are looking for? Careful what you say though as it isnt the craziest possibility that he ends up at Tallaght ;p

Reading my post again reads very negative re Hoban which doesnt reflect my opinion of him, i still rate him as a decent LOI striker who i would be happy to have at Tallaght if that happened but i think when push comes to shove he will re sign for Dundalk on what they have offered him as he wont better it in Ireland (unless Linfield come in for him

) and he won't have many offers from England when he is barely in the top 10 goalscorers from play this year in the league.
Its the apparent attitude he is displaying that annoys me.
What is the Dundalk opinion on how much his goal-scoring has fallen off this year, you don't become a bad player over night?

**5yardpass** · 14/08/2019, 10:33 AM

I think as the seasons go by more of what were once the lesser leagues have by big margins surpassed the LOI for revenue, TV, Rich Owners, Domestic Prize Money. which improves the standard of player their teams can afford and increases the transfer fee's they charge when selling, if none of these fundamentals are addressed results will only stay the same or get worse, ��. just look at Cyprus and Luxembourg but in reality take your pick of most European countries and the set ups are so much better... whinge over...

**outspoken** · 14/08/2019, 10:35 AM

Criticism of Hoban is harsh. He was Dundalk's main threat last night not so much in a scoring sense but he created most of the attacks by dropping deep or wide and playing in the likes of Duffy and Gannon in behind. With that being said surely it made sense when your centre forward is coming that deep and wide to get involved and is doing a good job of it you get another striker up alongside him? Starting to think Georgie Kelly is just an ornament for the bench? Unbelievable he wasn't brought on until it was too late yet again.

**mcgonigle** · 14/08/2019, 10:45 AM

Reality check again. It's really hard to say but as much as I love these players and the incredible things they've done domestically... they're not good enough to compete at this level.

There are no players in this league good enough to play in the group stages of the Europa League. The cycle of signing the best of the rest and gambling on players coming back from the UK is doomed to fail on this stage.

It's clear as day the level of investment required to get to the group stages and it is well above what we are currently investing. If the owners want to get there they are going to have to gamble and that is a scary prospect.

I don't think they will. I think they'll stick with the current model and hope to get the luck of the draw but with the new qualification model it has become less and less likely.

**mcgonigle** · 14/08/2019, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Certain Dundalk fans are not going to like me saying this but the parallels between Perth and Bradley during his first year in charge are uncanny.

I for one am not in that group, thought this was a great post. Gave me a great laugh when it was needed most. Thanks RH

**outspoken** · 14/08/2019, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by mcgonigle

Reality check again. It's really hard to say but as much as I love these players and the incredible things they've done domestically... they're not good enough to compete at this level.

There are no players in this league good enough to play in the group stages of the Europa League. The cycle of signing the best of the rest and gambling on players coming back from the UK is doomed to fail on this stage.

It's clear as day the level of investment required to get to the group stages and it is well above what we are currently investing. If the owners want to get there they are going to have to gamble and that is a scary prospect.

I don't think they will. I think they'll stick with the current model and hope to get the luck of the draw but with the new qualification model it has become less and less likely.

It's scary when you see Michael Duffy breezing by players without thinking In the league yet looking like a snail against some of these brick house yet lightening fast wingers and full backs in Europe. Dundalk are an incredibly fit side but the physical condition of players in Europe is genuinely scary. Definitely agree that without foreign players the league can't grow in Europe

**RathfarnhamHoop** · 14/08/2019, 11:46 AM

As I said Dundalk fans won't like the comparison but it's fair. Technically very good coaches, tactically know how they want to play but I bit naive on how exactly to do it, substations leave a bit to be desired, what's said to the press is easy to take out of context.

The main difference between them would be results but I think it's obvious to see why that is even to the most lillywhite tinted pairs of eyes.

**mcgonigle** · 14/08/2019, 11:58 AM

Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

As I said Dundalk fans won't like the comparison but it's fair. Technically very good coaches, tactically know how they want to play but I bit naive on how exactly to do it, substations leave a bit to be desired, what's said to the press is easy to take out of context.

The main difference between them would be results but I think it's obvious to see why that is even to the most lillywhite tinted pairs of eyes.

So they're very similar except in the one department that matters, results? This is a poor effort RH, PC will be having a word with you, must do better (much like Stephen's annual report card).

**sbgawa** · 14/08/2019, 1:01 PM

To be fair to RH results arent a fair judge on there own of a manager.
Is Neil Lennon a better manager than the Aberdeen manager because his results are better?

Vinnie took over a team that won the league easily and the consensus is the team has performed poorly compared to last year leading to question marks about his ability to get the best out of Dundalks players from Dundalk fans as well as others.
Can he improve the team going forward is the question.
Judge him on the teams performance in year 2 would be fairer than the current rush to judgement especially as he had limited time to get his head around the job and change the squad when Kenny left.
Winning the league this year will get him as much credit as Celtic winning the Premier league in Scotland , its expected given the disparity in budgets (which klind of leaves you in a no win situation as manager) so his performance is being questioned just like Bradleys was (with lower expectations) Rovers have improved as has Bradleys handling of Subs/tactics/Press (whether you think that is terrible to bad or average to good doesnt matter) it is better.

I have no doubt given time Vinnie will become a better manager , will he get the time is the question, he deserves it i think.

**RathfarnhamHoop** · 14/08/2019, 1:13 PM

I never mentioned results originally, I said there are parallels between them, as people, as managers.

**seand** · 14/08/2019, 1:57 PM

While I'm here please indulge me and allow me to don my official Dundalk FC anorak and ask if anyone has a ticket available from last night's game (the cardboard type, not the printout) for my collection? PM if you can help a sick man, thanks

**Nesta99** · 14/08/2019, 3:05 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Interesting bit of psychology in the posts above - interesting how far fans will go to ignore an obvious deficit in their own club.

But that deficit has been flagged a number of times in the games since.

(Not getting at Dundalk fans specifically; we're all guilty of it)

In fairness Stu, it was said that we looked toothless, lowscoring games were expected and that we could play in to better form. All happened - we played better in patches against Qarabag, and were a lot better against Slovan especially last night considering the deferent abilities of the respective opposition. Riga showed there were no mug either in subsequent ties. We were a lot better last night with attacking but were still lacking a cutting edge in the final third. Couple of poor defensive lapses, and a missed penalty or it was a different tie. It wasnt blind Dundalk faith that had the crowd sill engaged prior to the peno miss, it was that we had them pinned for significant periods and Hoare's introduction helped mitigate against the worry of being hit on the break.

Excuse time - we havent still yet been able to play a strongest 11 and preferred setup due to ongoing injuries. That said for the squad size we are currently 2 or 3 players out rather than 7 or 8, so managable. For whatever issues there are Jarvis would probably have been a starter as Massey was done for pace too often last night, we dont expect Boyle to make too many mistakes but he has had limited game time. Cleary looked shell shocked from early on and Hoare not starting was the first big error. Duffy was a bit more like himself and danced past the full back to be able to run in to space a few times first half. Hoban was furious on one occasion where picked the ball up from a Duffy raid forward and had him in on goal and Duffy inexplicably played the ball back out to Hoban away from goal so confidence is shot. McEleney we were all glad to see some glimpses of his old self when introduced. Not at all in agreement with Murray going off as he was the only one who looked energetic rather than a big leggy.

Its been mentioned in a few places that Slovan had strong lean lads with pace throughout their side. I think Dundalk players have bulked to the point where its is all strength at the expense of pace. There needs to be a balance and the strength and conditioning priorities looked at. Less time in the gym and more speed work!!! Gannon is still a rake, doesnt lack strength either and is mobile and pacey not a flipping Hulk lumbering around a pitch.

I still think there is enough in the Dundalk squad to work with in Europe. A pacey striker than can mean tactics changed up properly if need be rather than the like for like big man like Kelly coming on. Dummigan we need to get playing more and he can play left full now that Jarvis is gone. We are unlikely to have such a disrupted year across midfield again. Year 2 we may see the best of Murray and Flores injury free. Young Kelly has loads of time and loads of learning to be done. We have a transfer window to come that could be interesting.

All in all were 7 points clear at the top of the league, game in hand, LC Semi Final, a tasty cup game in Derry, and have played in 3 rounds in Europe...I'm not throwing the toys out of the pram in frustration just yet!!

**mcgonigle** · 14/08/2019, 3:06 PM

Originally Posted by sbgawa

To be fair to RH results arent a fair judge on there own of a manager.

the consensus is the team has performed poorly compared to last year

Is it? In what way has the team performed poorly compared to last year?

**pineapple stu** · 14/08/2019, 3:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nesta99

In fairness Stu, it was said that we looked toothless, lowscoring games were expected and that we could play in to better form. All happened - we played better in patches against Qarabag, and were a lot better against Slovan especially last night considering the deferent abilities of the respective opposition. Riga showed there were no mug either in subsequent ties. We were a lot better last night with attacking but were still lacking a cutting edge in the final third. Couple of poor defensive lapses, and a missed penalty or it was a different tie. It wasnt blind Dundalk faith that had the crowd sill engaged prior to the peno miss, it was that we had them pinned for significant periods and Hoare's introduction helped mitigate against the worry of being hit on the break.

I still think that, among Dundalk fans, it's clear the feeling ye could play better far outweighed the idea that ye had disimproved. (Especially Ez's balls-to-the-wind guff, but I guess that's par for the course really)

The bit in bold is exactly the point I made back at the start, but the various Dundalk fans I quoted chose to have an overly positive view of things - they would improve, clean sheets were more important, the win was all that mattered, etc. The game last night went along very similar lines as UCD v Slovan - couple of defensive lapses, a missed chance when ramping up the pressure at 3-1 down on aggregate, etc. But by and large, these aren't the things that could swing a tie. They're the indicators of the difference in quality.

As I say, this isn't a dig at Dundalk. I just find the psychology interesting. It's why you've people telling you players failed in England because they were in too poor a league, or that the league is better than the SPL - stuff that just doesn't stack up to a rational view. And every one of us here is guilty of the same thing about our own clubs. I'll tell you now we've a good chance of beating Pat's next weekend and going on a Cup run for example!

**RathfarnhamHoop** · 14/08/2019, 3:48 PM

Originally Posted by mcgonigle

Is it? In what way has the team performed poorly compared to last year?

Dundalk need to nearly double their goal difference to match last season, they scored a total of 2 goals in Europe and didn't win a game. Whatever about Europe but we've been told again and again by dundalk fans how the rest of the league isn't as good as previous years so either that's not true or Dundalk have gotten worse, can't have it both ways.

**mcgonigle** · 14/08/2019, 4:31 PM

Originally Posted by RathfarnhamHoop

Dundalk need to nearly double their goal difference to match last season, they scored a total of 2 goals in Europe and didn't win a game. Whatever about Europe but we've been told again and again by dundalk fans how the rest of the league isn't as good as previous years so either that's not true or Dundalk have gotten worse, can't have it both ways.

We are 1 point worse off than at the same stage last season! Goal difference is nonsense there are no teams as bad as Bray and Limerick this year. We went out a round earlier last season in the EL with a heavier defeat and Tallinn were a far inferior side to anything we played this year.

Not sure who's saying the rest of the league isn't as good as last year. Cork and Waterford have regressed but Rovers, Derry and Bohs have significantly improved.

The only thing that counts is the league table and that has us practically on par with last season

**sbgawa** · 14/08/2019, 5:15 PM

I wish I had dundalks problems of not winning the league easily enough but are dundalk fans saying there is no feeling amongst fans that the team have not hit top form this year under vinnie? All those penos and late winners are not signs of a team winning easily 1which was the sense I got from dundalk last year. Famously poor old SK never got a peno