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Thread: Republic of Ireland V Denmark - Saturday, 13th October 2018 - UEFA Nations League

  1. #101
    Seasoned Pro shakermaker1982's Avatar
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    I think that performance last night was to keep MO’N in a job & there is no shame in that. The plan was to stay compact. If we opened up last night and got tore apart again he’d have been under so much pressure his position would have been untenable.

    We lack ball players. Persisting with the likes of Walters & McClean is only going to lead us to direct football.

    I’m expecting another borefest Tuesday night but hopefully by time next set of fixtures come around Rice has agreed to come back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathalsmart View Post
    That’s adorable, thinking MON and co would play better football if they had better players. The pair of them can’t coach teams in the modern era and that won’t change even if they have better players, it’s the fact they are turds.
    Better what did you call them? Players.....was it? You actually called them players?
    If a barman couldn't pull a pint would you call him a barman? If a mechanic couldn't fix your car would you call him a mechanic?
    Forget Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane. It has nothing to do with them at this stage.
    It is all about those imposters in green shirts who are making you part with your hard earned money under false pretenses.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Better what did you call them? Players.....was it? You actually called them players?
    If a barman couldn't pull a pint would you call him a barman? If a mechanic couldn't fix your car would you call him a mechanic?
    Forget Martin O'Neill and Roy Keane. It has nothing to do with them at this stage.
    It is all about those imposters in green shirts who are making you part with your hard earned money under false pretenses.
    MON and ROY organise the team and set the team up to play a certain way, you reap what you sow here.

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    I played football weekly for 20 years or so and followed every Irish match of the Irish team for three decades. I'm on a break since the 5-1 last year.

    What annoys me is that we are not really trying to play football. We have become a even more rubbish version of England pre-Southgate in that our management and squad think that we can win with fight, passion, belief and manliness. That's mystical bla bla, I have to time for that. It's depressing to watch.

    Why even bother taking part in football tournaments if we don't try to play football? It's like showing up at the Olympic Diving competition and doing cannonballs. You'll get nowhere. People say we don't have the players but how do we know if we don't even try to play football? These players are all professional footballers with experience at decent clubs.

    So, after 10 years of Trap and O'Neill (make that 12 years if you include the shambles that was Pinger), there's only so much torture my eyeballs can take.

    Respect to those of you who still put up with it. Youse would make good prisoners of war. Unbreakable to the end.

    At the same time, I think the fans need it to be made known that we can't be taken for granted. The FAI can't rely on us to just show up, buy tickets and fill the coffers year after year.

  5. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by brine3 View Post
    I played football weekly for 20 years or so and followed every Irish match of the Irish team for three decades. I'm on a break since the 5-1 last year.

    What annoys me is that we are not really trying to play football. We have become a even more rubbish version of England pre-Southgate in that our management and squad think that we can win with fight, passion, belief and manliness. That's mystical bla bla, I have to time for that. It's depressing to watch.

    Why even bother taking part in football tournaments if we don't try to play football? It's like showing up at the Olympic Diving competition and doing cannonballs. You'll get nowhere. People say we don't have the players but how do we know if we don't even try to play football? These players are all professional footballers with experience at decent clubs.

    So, after 10 years of Trap and O'Neill (make that 12 years if you include the shambles that was Pinger), there's only so much torture my eyeballs can take.

    Respect to those of you who still put up with it. Youse would make good prisoners of war. Unbreakable to the end.

    At the same time, I think the fans need it to be made known that we can't be taken for granted. The FAI can't rely on us to just show up, buy tickets and fill the coffers year after year.
    Thank God Above! Finally somebody who calls a spade a spade.

  6. #106
    Capped Player SkStu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brine3 View Post
    It's like showing up at the Olympic Diving competition and doing cannonballs. You'll get nowhere.
    At least that would be fun to watch.

    We don’t have the players is a nonsense argument. You could point to many other countries who have the same type of talent pool to pick from and can produce decent and effective displays and results.

    Our players can produce performances week in week out in the top 2 English leagues. Why can’t they do the same with us? Because our management team cannot find, coach, deploy a coherent system. And claim they don’t have enough time to. WT absolute F planning do they do between intl breaks apart from crisis management of their own doing.

    Lazy as F and they need to get gone.

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  8. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by backstothewall View Post
    I've just got home. Truly awful. It's getting harder to justify the drive for this with every passing game.
    passing game??? what passing game?

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  10. #108
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cathalsmart View Post
    MON and ROY organise the team and set the team up to play a certain way, you reap what you sow here.
    Let's assume O'Neill and Keane are the worst managers that ever drew breath. How does it stop our players from actually playing football when they cross the white lines?
    As an Irish player you suddenly develop amnesia about all the internationals of the last few years when you hoofed the ball long for 90 minutes and got no reward?
    You forget how to show for a ball, how to play a one two? How to spring a quick counter-attack? How to take an aerial ball on your chest instead of heading it back to the opposition?

    You are spot on - you reap what you sow.

  11. #109
    Seasoned Pro jbyrne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    Our players can produce performances week in week out in the top 2 English leagues.

    apart from duffy, doherty and coleman, when fit, what players are producing performances week in week out?

    most of our players are in and out of their teams most of the time.
    Last edited by jbyrne; 14/10/2018 at 9:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shakermaker1982 View Post
    I think that performance last night was to keep MO’N in a job & there is no shame in that. The plan was to stay compact. If we opened up last night and got tore apart again he’d have been under so much pressure his position would have been untenable.

    We lack ball players. Persisting with the likes of Walters & McClean is only going to lead us to direct football.

    I’m expecting another borefest Tuesday night but hopefully by time next set of fixtures come around Rice has agreed to come back.
    Question for you. If you could wave a magic wand and be granted one of the following wishes, which would it be?
    Have Declan Rice come on board and hope that he will be the player that totally transforms Ireland's style of play?
    Or see a coaching system put in place which develops Irish kids to actually play proper football (like, I dunno let me think of a country that does it with a similar population - yeah I got it - Uruguay)

  13. #111
    International Prospect osarusan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SkStu View Post
    We don’t have the players is a nonsense argument. You could point to many other countries who have the same type of talent pool to pick from and can produce decent and effective displays and results.

    Our players can produce performances week in week out in the top 2 English leagues. Why can’t they do the same with us? Because our management team cannot find, coach, deploy a coherent system. And claim they don’t have enough time to. WT absolute F planning do they do between intl breaks apart from crisis management of their own doing.
    This is what I think too. We can see some examples around Europe of teams whose players are not better than ours overall, but whose team performances are clearly better than ours. They show just how much can be achieved by adopting a system which best exploits the resources at their disposal.

    For the money available for the management team, we should absolutely expect no less than that, but we are not getting anywhere near it.

    It is that simple for me - the FAI are paying enough to expect a management team who can consistently produce a team that is at least the sum of its parts, but the management team are consistently failing to do that.
    Last edited by osarusan; 14/10/2018 at 10:07 PM.

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  15. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    a bit of over reaction to last nights game here i think. denmark are currently ranked 10th and even without eriksen are a very good team. we looked more solid than we have for the last 11 months and the last 20 mins saw some decent enough build up play from us. a decent step steadying the ship imo... 6.5/10 performance for me.

    the north with all their alleged better football regularly end up with less than 40% possession. not all that rosy for them as is made out.

    the reaction here to christie in ctre mid is disappointing and smacks of contradiction. on the one hand mon is accused of being conservative and out of touch but when he tries something new, like chistie in ctre mid, is ridiculed. alaba plays full back for his club but ctre mid for his country. not putting christie in the same category yet but i thought he won the ball back well on a number of occasions and his athletisim around the midfield was good. no harm trying it and should be given more than one match before the knives are produced! worth another look for me.

    i liked the look of our defence last night and throw mccarthy, coleman and brady into the mix and we may see much better by the euro qualifiers proper. re- capturing rice would be a real bonus
    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    A bit of over reaction? I am surprised there is not a mountain more of criticism on here for what is one of the worst teams in Europe (and to think that some people on here choose to blame MON and RK first, before
    the players on the pitch, is actually laughable). Denmark may be ranked wherever but what was to stop the Irish lads playing like Denmark did last night?
    After all none of the Danes are playing for the Real Madrids, Man Citys, Barcelonas and Bayern Munichs of the world. They are the same level of player as our lads yet they passed us to
    death last night. And their intelligent play almost won them the game. At no time did we ever look like threatening them if it was not from a free kick or a throw in (and we made a real hash of some of the free kicks).
    Look, when you plant Shane Long at center forward and belt the ball long to him within the first 30 seconds, then the opposition know that we don't have much going for us and boy were they right.

    Best thing that can happen for Irish football is a Welsh victory on Tuesday night. Time to tear it all down and build a different model. I am hearing good things about the U-19's and U-17's, let's hope they can
    actually play the game, not like this bunch.
    I'm going to agree with jbyrne here in saying that there seems to be a bit of an overreaction to the performance (although I will admit I didn't see the game and will accept that our play was pretty poor and unadventurous)

    While it's true that Denmark's players are not are not at the absolute top teams, they are still mostly EPL, Bundesliga, Serie A, La Liga, Ligue 1 and Ajax players, which would be considered "top-tier" - by that definition 9 of their 12 who played last night play for "top-tier" teams, compared to 7 of our 14. While they were (thankfully) missing Eriksen, we were missing four EPL players (Coleman, Ward, Brady and McCarthy) plus two of our current striking options (Walters and Maguire). So a 0-0 draw against a team that took Croatia to penalties in the World Cup is a creditable result, especially after the two competitive hammerings we'd received, even if the performance was poor.

    We also need to have a bit of perspective about the nature of this Nations League tournament and what it means to us. While it would be nice to top the group, get a second seeding for the qualifiers and get promoted to League A for next time around, even relegation to League C after a couple of losses and poor performances this time around would not be a disaster - even if we finish third and don't qualify through the regular qualifiers, we will still get a last-chance shot in the play-offs in March 2020 as long as no more than 4 teams from League C qualify through the "traditional" route. If 5 or 6 do, then last night's point could yet prove to be instrumental in ensuring we get that shot - it could also keep us in the League B play-offs, rather than getting dragged up to the League A play-offs. Note - two teams in League B currently have 0 points and one other has 1. It also keeps us in contention for a second-place position that would make us second-seeds for the main qualifiers.

    So we still have something to play for in the Nations League tournament itself. However, we are still a team in transition, both in terms of formation and players. I know MON has come in for a lot of criticism for stubbornly sticking to a particular style of play, but he seems to be using this time to test a new formation (3-5-2/3-5-1-1) which, after a rocky start, seems to be starting to fit us. In terms of players, between retirements and injuries to key players, he appears to have been given lemons, but at least seems to be trying to make lemonade out of it by giving as many new players as is reasonable a chance to establish themselves in time for the main qualifiers. Last night seven players who I think are not yet fully established internationals got some valuable experience (Doherty, K Long, Arter, O'Dowda, Stevens, Robinson and O'Brien). This gives us a deeper pool of players to choose from come the March games. As a result, by the time those last-shot play-offs come around, we will have a better squad than we do now. We may even be able to add a couple of more options, if players like Jimmy Dunne, Aaron Connolly, Caoimhin Kelleher, Ronan Curtis and Josh Cullen advance their careers over the course of this season.

    So I utterly disagree with mark12345, who says the best thing is to lose to Wales and tear everything down to build a different model - I know there are issues with MONKEANO (particularly the KEANO part) but O'Neill is already building a somewhat different model, albeit of necessity, and should be given a shot to see it through. In his two campaigns so far he has achieved the upper end of our reasonable expectations in one (reaching the last 16 in Euro 2016) and the lower end of our reasonable expectations in the other (second in the group, knocked out in the play-offs, albeit badly). I think he is still well capable of getting us through to the Euro 2020 finals and at this point we should only start talking about getting rid of him if he fails to do so or if the main qualifiers start really terribly and/or there is more trouble in the camp. After all, Mick McCarthy took three attempts to get us through to a major tournament.

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  17. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    apart from duffy, doherty and coleman, when fit, what players are producing performances week in week out?

    most of our players are in and out of their teams most of the time.
    The following players out of the most recent squad have appeared in greater than 75% of their teams league games this season:

    Randolph
    Duffy
    Christie
    Keogh
    Egan
    Stevens
    Lenihan
    McClean
    Hendrick
    Arter
    O’Dowda
    Hourihane
    Williams
    Browne
    Long
    Robinson
    O’Brien

    K Long, Clark, Williams, Meyler - not regulars
    Maguire, Hogan - injures for most of season, regulars at time of injury.
    McDermott - not the top 2 English leagues but regular.
    Doyle - not in top 2 English leagues, not regular.

  18. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbyrne View Post
    my main points were:

    - over reaction to how bad it was:
    i stick by this. some positive performances from our defence, stevens and robinson, when they came on, and christie.

    - we looked more solid than we did for past 11 months:
    we did

    - criticism of mon over picking christie in midfield:
    christie was probably the pick our ctre mids. definately from a defensive point of view.

    - the additon of coleman, brady and mccarthy may see us much better by the start of the euros proper:
    obvious

    - getting rice on board would be a real bonus.
    also obvious.

    nothing i say above suggests brilliance or close to it but if i see improvement in certain areas and some light at the end of the tunnel i will call it.

    saying that wales beating us would be good for irish football isnt over reaction???? please....

    I agree.
    Total overreaction.
    We looked far more solid than we have in a year.
    It’s an improvement.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mark12345 View Post
    Let's assume O'Neill and Keane are the worst managers that ever drew breath. How does it stop our players from actually playing football when they cross the white lines?
    As an Irish player you suddenly develop amnesia about all the internationals of the last few years when you hoofed the ball long for 90 minutes and got no reward?
    You forget how to show for a ball, how to play a one two? How to spring a quick counter-attack? How to take an aerial ball on your chest instead of heading it back to the opposition?

    You are spot on - you reap what you sow.
    Either our players are as bad as the players from San Marino, Andorra, Lichtenstein, Malta etc or it’s the embarrassingly amateurish coaching staff, take you’re pick. The free kick that Cyrus Christie was supposed to receiving in the 2nd half sums up this coaching staff.

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    If O’Neill was giving the Irish job the respect it deserves would he not jettison Roy Keane . Keane is a way more trouble than any coaching ability that he brings which appears to be very little .

    The O’Neill managerial-ship could do with a coaching over-hall . Its time for O’Neill to bite the Bullet and tell Keane how it is . He then should be looking out for a coach that is willing and able to put the work in .

    If O’Neill is unwillingly to go this way then he should leave with Roy Keane .

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    Why should the assistant manager take the blame and the actual manager get off scot free? Surely they must go as a pair? O'Neill is responsible for team selection, tactics and coaching. End of story.

  22. #118
    International Prospect passinginterest's Avatar
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    Maybe, just maybe this is the most leaderless and talentless group of players we've ever had. Maybe it's the most directionless and tactically poor management team we've ever had. I'm inclined to think it's a perfect storm of old school management meets new school players and there's a fundamental breakdown in between.

    One of the biggest criticisms of modern players is that they're over coached and have lost the ability to express themselves on the pitch. That's not just in terms of skill, that's adaptability too. They're coached specifically to play in systems and told where to be and when to be there on the pitch. When they meet a coaching team that just picks the team and expects them to figure it out for themselves, they're lost and that's evident on the pitch. There's not enough quality or leadership there to cover over the lack of a well defined and coached system.

    O'Neill loves athletic players like McLean and Christie because they play more like the old school, they use their athleticism to cover ground and negate the lack of technical quality or a clear system. While we don't have a huge amount of quality coming through a lot of the players in the current squad are more technical and less physical, particularly around the midfield, players like Hourihan, Browne, Williams, Arter, Hendrick, O'Dowda. They've all proven to be decent players at premier league and championship level, yet they've all looked a bit lost in an Ireland jersey. For me that comes down to a lack of instruction and coaching from the management team, just as much as a lack of character and quality from the players.

    Tallaght Stadium Regular

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  24. #119
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    I agree. I heard this morning that Christie was only told where he was playing an hour before KO but that he had an inkling because of training. He has never played senior football in central midfield before.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stuttgart88 View Post
    I agree. I heard this morning that Christie was only told where he was playing an hour before KO but that he had an inkling because of training. He has never played senior football in central midfield before.
    Apparently hadn’t played that position since he was 14 .

    I though he did ok for a player that had not played that position much . Another option for him for club and country . It worked reasonably well even though its not very good offensively . It will be interesting to see if they do it again against Wales . for some reason I doubt it . Wales would be fore-warned and would probably plan better to take advantage of a player playing in a position he is not experienced in .

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