Respect for Mr Trapattoni please

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

He has won a reprieve or extended his stay more like, if he gets 6 in september then I think we can agree with his methods. He has shown possible signs that it could be done. I think 4 would be a decent return, in one way I'd rather it was away against Austria, but in another way I want it to be at home against Sweden where he gets the 3 points.

and where do the players fit into all of this?

Exactly that's up to trap to select the right ones.

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Exactly that's up to trap to select the right ones.

and its only the right players if we get the 4 / 6 points?
so if we concede a goal as ciaran clark again loses the ball crazily on the edge of our box that will be traps fault?

I think what POSH means to say is that we are still alive and thus Trap deserves to finish what he started. But don't quote me on that.

Originally Posted by jbyrne

and its only the right players if we get the 4 / 6 points?
so if we concede a goal as ciaran clark again loses the ball crazily on the edge of our box that will be traps fault?

Did we lose that game 0-1?

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Did we lose that game 0-1?

no but we scored two goals and would have won 2-1 without that goal. even their 2nd was preventable if Alaba was properly closed down on the edge of the box by the players.

I think Trap has done alright since the Austria game and I'm actually feeling reasonably optimistic about September. I think he has got the team's spirits back up again and I think he deserves credit.

Gone are the days when we'd beat minnows by 6 goals. I remember when that was the type of score we'd expect to beat Greece and Turkey by. Look at them now! Criticism of the recent showings is unfair and are not what either sceptics or supporters of Trap should be making their argument on.

Even under Mick and Brian Kerr we'd labour to beat minnows handsomely. These teams are happy to defend even a 3 goal deficit such is their lack of ambition and I find that they tend to bring teams down to their level. I think we did just fine in the last few games. It's encouraging that fresh blood is being integrated and that Trap has admitted overlooking Hoolahan for as long as he did was an error.

That said, I still don't trust Trap's selections so I worry about who he'll pick in September. Right midfield (Keogh, Cox..) is a constant worry. Whelan's inability to perform his role effectively is a worry, as is Trap's likely persistence with him - which has to be at the expense of Hoolahan or McCarthy, both of whom should be a shoo-in.

I also think AB, despite some inane nonsense posted recently, is right to say that even if Trap had every player in Europe to choose from, he'd still play conservatively. That's the way he is. I don't think conservatism will get 4 or 6 points in September, we need to be bold - but not foolhardy.

I also can't agree at all with Owls Fan (Armenia thread) that Trap's only error against Austria was not making a sub in injury time. I think he made several errors: picking Sammon and playing hoofball from the start; the one substitution of moving Walters upfront, bringing Green - a central midfielder who had played well 4 days earlier - to play RHM and taking Long off instead of Sammon has to go down as being as calamitous as Kerr's stupid substitution at home to Israel. Yes of course last minute goals happen (very regularly in our case) and we could easily have got away with it, but we all saw this one coming. We all saw that Alaba was taking charge of midfield and needed man-marking. How come Trap didn't?

Originally Posted by jbyrne

no but we scored two goals and would have won 2-1 without that goal. even their 2nd was preventable if Alaba was properly closed down on the edge of the box by the players.

We benefitted from one of the dumbest tackles ever seen at the Aviva and a free header from a corner with no marker on the post.

I'm not being churlish. Long neraly scored a wonder goal and should have buried a second half header. I'm just saying that our goals weren't exactly evidence of a great performance, just as it's not right to say their equaliser was just the result of not closing down. It was the result of not recognising where the threat had been consistently coming from in the 20 preceding minutes and doing nothing about it.

I'm actually giving Trap credit for the games since but can we please not try and revise what happened at home to Austria as being some kind of barnstorming performance that was tragically cut short.

The German language commentary on youtube describing the penalty incident said it all to me: "Ireland, mit kick and rush..."

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

That said, I still don't trust Trap's selections so I worry about who he'll pick in September. Right midfield (Keogh, Cox..) is a constant worry.

It is a little, but Brady and Pilkington were unavailable for the recent games, and all the indications were that they would play some part. You'd have to imagine in the new season, with a full preseason behind both of them, they'll be vying for the starting berth on the right

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

We benefitted from one of the dumbest tackles ever seen at the Aviva and a free header from a corner with no marker on the post.

I'm not being churlish. Long neraly scored a wonder goal and should have buried a second half header. I'm just saying that our goals weren't exactly evidence of a great performance, just as it's not right to say their equaliser was just the result of not closing down. It was the result of not recognising where the threat had been consistently coming from in the 20 preceding minutes and doing nothing about it.

I'm actually giving Trap credit for the games since but can we please not try and revise what happened at home to Austria as being some kind of barnstorming performance that was tragically cut short.

where have I said it was a barnstorming performance? for about 20mins of the game I thought we could push on and win by a couple and for 20mins, particularly early on, i thought we might get a good beating. the rest of the game was the usual fine line of success / failure fare that we have served up for years now.

my post was in response to the all too common assertion that our woes are always down to the manager. its all "if trap gets the points" and "if trap picks the right players". i was merely pointing out that no manager can plan for what Clark did on the edge of his own box or the fact that Alaba was given too much room to get his shot off. the players count too

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I also think AB, despite some inane nonsense posted recently, is right to say that even if Trap had every player in Europe to choose from, he'd still play conservatively. That's the way he is. I don't think conservatism will get 4 or 6 points in September, we need to be bold - but not foolhardy.

A bit harsh. Just not up myself like certain people are prone to be.

Anyway, we mainly agree. Which is the main thing.

[QUOTE=paul_oshea;1693375]He has won a reprieve or extended his stay more like, if he gets 6 in september then I think we can agree with his methods. QUOTE]

He may have won temporary reprieve , but 6 points or not in September, his methods are still going to be outdated and will eventually cost us dearly

Stutts you said the Long call was just and right because Long is petulant and was on a yellow? Have you changed your tune on that one?

[QUOTE=back of the net;1693420]

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

He has won a reprieve or extended his stay more like, if he gets 6 in september then I think we can agree with his methods. QUOTE]

He may have won temporary reprieve , but 6 points or not in September, his methods are still going to be outdated and will eventually cost us dearly

They already did last year. I think that is the frustrating part, but I think , although it wont happen, if we made the world cup we would perform better with the current crop than we did with the euros crop.

Originally Posted by paul_oshea

Stutts you said the Long call was just and right because Long is petulant and was on a yellow? Have you changed your tune on that one?

I can't remember what I said, but I think he took Long off because he was petulant. I'm not saying he left Sammon on instead of Long for tactical reasons. I think he should have just told Long to cop himself on. That's what managers are supposed to do. Regardless, I would not have left Sammon on as he was contributing nothing and Austria's resurgence actually had its roots in their defenders having it too easy.

Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

A bit harsh. Just not up myself like certain people are prone to be.

Saying bennocelt has a point when he blatantly didn't? Wasting a post saying Osarusan was saying the same thing twice, when he wasn't. And so on...

Just like this is a waste of a post I suppose but inane nonsense is a pretty fair description of some posts on here recently. It's a shame if you see people making rational arguments as being self-indulgent, whereas nitpicking on minutiae isn't. I don't agree.

Originally Posted by jbyrne

where have I said it was a barnstorming performance? for about 20mins of the game I thought we could push on and win by a couple and for 20mins, particularly early on, i thought we might get a good beating. the rest of the game was the usual fine line of success / failure fare that we have served up for years now.

my post was in response to the all too common assertion that our woes are always down to the manager. its all "if trap gets the points" and "if trap picks the right players". i was merely pointing out that no manager can plan for what Clark did on the edge of his own box or the fact that Alaba was given too much room to get his shot off. the players count too

I agree. Of course Trap can't be blamed for individual mistakes but I just think that he was culpable for the second goal for not responding to how the game had changed after our bright start to the second half. failure to close down can't just be isolated, it's got to be seen in the context that Alaba & co. had been given room for quite a while before that. the more room they're given the more they'll go looking for and they were getting progressively closer.

Even if we'd got away with it I'd have been reluctant to give too much credit to Trap for the win. It doesn't follow in my mind that win = manager good, lose = manager bad (nor am I saying that's what you think). There's room for qualified opinion in all scenarios. My qualified opinion is that the manager had a mare in that game, the players were good for decent parts of the game but also failed when it really counted, at both ends.

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I can't remember what I said, but I think he took Long off because he was petulant. I'm not saying he left Sammon on instead of Long for tactical reasons. I think he should have just told Long to cop himself on. That's what managers are supposed to do. Regardless, I would not have left Sammon on as he was contributing nothing and Austria's resurgence actually had its roots in their defenders having it too easy.

That's what I thought at the time and posted here, but I thought you had said he was right to take Long off. You're the one with the flawless memory you should remember

Its funny how the Trap brigade go on about everyone else saying that its Trap, and not the players and all this, don't give an inch on Trap himself. Those of us who are seen as anti-trap are seen as though we don't give an inch, where that is not true at all, we are willing to cede ground where improvements have been made, pointing out where trap needs to change is hardly a stance of being anti-trap no matter what. I think those who are so quick to defend him need to see the wood from the trees - in the sense of our arguments.

Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

I can't remember what I said, but I think he took Long off because he was petulant. I'm not saying he left Sammon on instead of Long for tactical reasons. I think he should have just told Long to cop himself on. That's what managers are supposed to do. Regardless, I would not have left Sammon on as he was contributing nothing and Austria's resurgence actually had its roots in their defenders having it too easy.

I'd imagine Trap's decision was influenced by a similar situation against Macedonia when Doyle was on a yellow at 2-1 and got himself sent off, something I think everybody saw coming for about 20 minutes beforehand. Long was very much in the same state of mind.