Republic of Ireland V Georgia - Sunday, 2nd June, 2013 - Friendly

[jbyrne]

Still in by a good ten yards.



I don't think the video backs this up. It's the keeper who changes direction.

still no way long was getting to that ball therefore not a goalscoring opportunity denied nevermind a clear one

[Stuttgart88]

I would not see the tackle as particularly dangerous although these days refs seem to treat it as a none contact sport,
indeed you don't even have to make contact to get sent off!!! (as I understand it)

No, refs do treat the game as a contact sport, albeit one where you've got to treat your opponent with a duty of care. I'm 100% with the modern refereeing climate on this one. The Hutton tackle on Shane Long last year was a great case-in-point. Won the ball but endangered his opponent in the process and nearly broke Long's ankle. It should have been a red all day long.

And yes, there doesn't have to be contact for it to be a foul. A player might evade a very dangerous tackle, but it'd still be a foul. Alternatively, the attempted tackle (usually in the case of a goalie coming out but being too late in a 1-on-1) might cause the attacker, by evading the tackle, to lose control of a ball he'd never have lost control of otherwise. That's also a foul in my view and if it denies a clear goalscoring opportunity then it would warrant a red.

Similarly an attempted tackle that missed the man altogether but which endangered an opponent and failed in the tackler's duty of care to the opponent would also potentially warrant a red in my book.

So, in my opinion, you can win the ball and still be penalised or sent off, and you can miss the man and still be penalised or sent off.

[DannyInvincible]

Still in by a good ten yards.

It's by no means a certainty that Long would not have re-collected that ball had the keeper not impeded his run. In fact, I think he would have made it and, in doing so, would have set himself up for an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. The situation was already an obvious goal-scoring opportunity besides, no? Long would not have had to chip the ball past Loria in the manner he did if it were not for Loria's poor positioning and impending or likely foul.

Just to have a closer look at the criteria with regard to Loria's foul:

• The direction of play was towards the Georgian goal.
• The location of the foul was right outside the Georgian box; not far from the Georgian goal.
• The ball was still in play and no more than 10 or 12 feet from Long when he was impeded.
• I also think the chances of him otherwise controlling the ball would have been high; he was running at speed and I feel his sudden halting makes the ball (already moving away from him, but not accelerating, importantly) look further away from him than had he been able to continue his run.
• There were no other opponents, other than the keeper, who realistically could have gotten themselves into a position to prevent Long from creating an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. Long was already out-pacing the trailing defender who tried to give chase.
• The opportunity for the attempt on goal is pretty obvious; Long was clean through with just the keeper to beat.

[Stuttgart88]

Long would not have had to chip the ball past Loria in the manner he did if it were not for Loria's poor positioning and impending or likely foul.

That's a point I was going to try and make but I coul;dn't think of how to configure the sentence. It's the old "how do you tell the dancer from the dance?" (or maybe not!). Was the foul the singular act of contact, or was it rushing out, getting in Long's way and then the contact? By itself rushing out and making Long play the ball around him wouldn't have been a foul but making the foul was part of the whole episode.

It wasn't dissimilar to the Armenia GK getting sent off. He ran out with his arms raised to prevent a lob. Even before he hit the ball with his arm / chest / shoulder (or whatever) he had pretty much made the decision to stop the goal at all costs.

Some indignant pious self-loathers in the Irish media actually saw fit to accuse Cox of being a cheat for simply appealing.

[pineapple stu]

Long would not have had to chip the ball past Loria in the manner he did if it were not for Loria's poor positioning and impending or likely foul.

Just on this - let's say the keeper didn't turn into Long as he went past, and let's say Long hadn't been able to keep the ball in play. That would have gone down as good goalkeeping in my book, not poor positioning. The keeper had to narrow the angle and make Long think quickly; had to try force a mistake. That he arguably did so is to his credit. That he then had a brain fart and turned into Long is a different matter.

Edit - interesting that my fellow keeper Stutts has a different opinion on this one!

[ArdeeBhoy]

Yellow, at worst. But with 'modern football', no surprise it was red.

[Stuttgart88]

I think if he had simply stood up and evaded Long it'd have been no foul and arguably he'd have been commended for his positioning - albeit goalies almost always seem to commit to the tackle in this situation (Szcezny of Arsenal is a serial offender). If he had attempted to play the ball and missed it, it could have been a foul. But by fouling him, the whole decision to come out to where he did and the way he did comes under doubt. The whole thing might have been a brain fart. In hindsight the right thing to do would have been to come out half-way and wait for Long's first touch before deciding what to do next. A keeper rushing out for a ball he's not going to get to first is asking for trouble, and he got it.

Many of these calls are marginal and to a large degree refs / fans / pundits have a template of what is and what isn't a red. It looked a red all day Long and I think that's what most of us would have demanded in a competitive game. At the very least, it wasn't a clear error by the ref.

[Stuttgart88]

Yellow, at worst. But with 'modern football', no surprise it was red.

Would Hutton's tackle on Long last year have passed your "modern football" test?

[DannyInvincible]

That's a point I was going to try and make but I coul;dn't think of how to configure the sentence.

Had to have a bit of a think about it myself. Is it too much of a stretch?

Just on this - let's say the keeper didn't turn into Long as he went past, and let's say Long hadn't been able to keep the ball in play. That would have gone down as good goalkeeping in my book, not poor positioning. The keeper had to narrow the angle and make Long think quickly; had to try force a mistake. That he arguably did so is to his credit. That he then had a brain fart and turned into Long is a different matter.

Edit - interesting that my fellow keeper Stutts has a different opinion on this one!

True. By "poor positioning", I suppose what I meant was that his positioning and course of action made fouling Long, or physically impeding his run, an inevitability.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Would Hutton's tackle on Long last year have passed your "modern football" test?

Er, yes. But he's got thuggish tendencies...and unsure why the comparison.

[paul_oshea]

I really don't get the point of these last 20+ posts.

[tetsujin1979]

if it was inside the area, would you have been happy with a penalty, and a yellow card?
as it was, the sending off ended the game as a competitive spectacle

[DannyInvincible]

It's not the referee's responsibility to ensure or maintain a competitive spectacle though. His sole responsibility is to oversee that the laws of the game are applied and executed correctly.

[pineapple stu]

Absolutely.

The goalkeeper ended the match as a spectacle by rushing outside the box and fouling Long. I hate this idea of blaming the ref for that.

[ArdeeBhoy]

Tbf, could have been a yellow.
Seen one given many times in those circumstances.

Foul, but Long made a meal of it IMO.

[pineapple stu]

That's nonsense. He was fairly clearly fouled. The only issue is whether he was going to get to the ball.

[DannyInvincible]

The only issue is whether he was going to get to the ball.

And the threshold to be satisfied is a mere "probability". What's that? A 50 per cent chance or more of getting the ball?

[Stuttgart88]

Er, yes. But he's got thuggish tendencies...and unsure why the comparison.

Simply because you implied that "modern football" is too soft with regard red cards, a view shared by people who wouldn't agree with what I said in post #182 above in response to tricky.

I really don't get the point of these last 20+ posts.

It was an interesting incident in the Ireland v Georgia match and this is the Ireland v Georgia match thread.

[BonnieShels]

Anyone able to point me in the direction of full highlights?

[ArdeeBhoy]

That's nonsense. He was fairly clearly fouled. The only issue is whether he was going to get to the ball.

Whereas I would say it was 'nonsense', it was a red. And that he exaggerated his fall.

Sometimes wonder if any of you have even ever played the game...