Ireland V Germany 12th October & Faroe Islands 16th October 2012 - World Cup 2014 Q

[paul_oshea]

Is it not just a reaction to being under severe pressure?

The proof in the attacking pudding will be how we play ball tonight. I'd like to think if he's actively making an effort to change our mentality, it'll be represented in keeping the ball and building attacks.

You said before he has worked for 40 years in football, a couple of results and the media has no effect on him. Why the change now?

I don't think the way we play tonight explains anything related to pressure - on Trap - or what I was asking. Why has he decided all of a sudden to pick far more attacking line ups(and players) and players that we all said should be in the team a year ago than he has before - as suggested by you and others he has been in football for 40 years he can handle the media and a couple of bad results?

[Stuttgart88]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...d-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.

[the bear]

7:00pm kick off time tonight.

To be fair I think Robbie handles his press confrences well. To blame him for the euros is ridiculous. Totti wouldn't of been able to do anything either

[jbyrne]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...d-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.

i think robbie deserves more respect than such tabloid drivel

[Duggie]

i think robbie deserves more respect than such tabloid drivel

course he does, robbie has carried us for years with his goals but our journalists canT wait to get him out of the team seemingly. the same journalists will be looking back at his goal record once we cant score when he retires. pathetic. KEANO IS A LEGEND.

[Charlie Darwin]

I see David Kelly was scathing of Robbie in the Indo today. Unfair imho, a captain has to put up a united front and can't be openly critical. I'd like Kelly to be put on the spot in public and asked about his sports editor.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/socc...d-3259619.html


The Trapattoni era must be viewed first and foremost through his relationship with his most influential player, the captain.

The narcissistic pair have become so inextricably linked that it seems neither man can no longer see clearly enough to effectively examine the other's shortcomings.

Both are guilty of relying on past glories to prop up a slip from former greatness. The captain has been pinpointed as Trap's Totti; in the Euros he was instead a tottering nonentity.

Ridiculous article. The captain has to assume the manager will be around for the rest of the campaign and has to at least feign confidence in him. We do have the small matter of a World Cup qualifier tonight.

[Junior]

Sorry not had time to trawl through this thread and short on time but anyone got a suggestion for stream for tonights game for those outside Ireland. Dont normally watch online.

Thanks in advance.

Junior

[paul_oshea]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

I wouldn't trust a stream to be honest, you can't watch in comfort.

[the bear]

Sorry not had time to trawl through this thread and short on time but anyone got a suggestion for stream for tonights game for those outside Ireland. Dont normally watch online.

Thanks in advance.

Junior

http://www.vipboxsports.eu/sports/football.html

[SwanVsDalton]

You said before he has worked for 40 years in football, a couple of results and the media has no effect on him. Why the change now?

I don't think the way we play tonight explains anything related to pressure - on Trap - or what I was asking. Why has he decided all of a sudden to pick far more attacking line ups(and players) and players that we all said should be in the team a year ago than he has before - as suggested by you and others he has been in football for 40 years he can handle the media and a couple of bad results?

Do you really think we're in the same situation we were when I made that comment?

What I was referring to then is hardly the same to now - we've been shellacked at the Euros, robbed the Kazakhs blind and got absolutely battered at home by Germany.

This is the nadir of the manager's reign so far. It's a situation he's never faced as an Ireland manager ie one which by many accounts says he'll be sacked in a few days. It's natural to suppose he might alter his approach to tackle the situation.

Saying 'all of a sudden' is a bit bananas - if Trap beat Germany then a change up would be sudden. As we got stuffed, it isn't.

Also your comment seems to suggest Trap is responding to the media/fans more than anything, which I don't think is true. I think he's simply responding to us getting battered 6-1.

I know some here - and I'd include you in that POS judging by what you're saying - think a change in methodology by Trap is beyond the pale, but regardless of whether anyone thinks the manager is stubborn, stupid, lazy or all three, it's natural to suppose there's limits to his intransigence. Maybe, just maybe, a bunch of absolutely rubbish results* is his limit.

A secondary point is I'm not so sure the selection is ALL that more attacking than his previous one's - it's still 442 after all and besides Coleman at right back and possibly McCarthy, the side squares up similar to Trap's classic selections (Brady/Duff and Wilson/Kilbane). It is a little more adventurous, but not so different that I believe anything over than a combination of poor results and emerging attacking personnel (Brady and Coleman) have forced his hand.

If the side play a bit more ball, I'd personally take it as a far more startling sign of Trap changing things up.

*I know there's been rubbish results before, but fair to say they haven't been as rubbish as recently.

[Charlie Darwin]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

You're a selfless man

[Junior]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

I wouldn't trust a stream to be honest, you can't watch in comfort.

Cheers Paul, great help as always!

Think Ill struggle to get round to the old fellas to watch on RTE in time so need a back up plan. You enjoy your pints though.

[the bear]

I really didn't want to go to the pub tonight, but dedication to my country ensures that I will.

Paul O'Shea the motion picture, starring Liam Neeson coming soon to a theatre near you.

[paul_oshea]

That was obviously tongue in cheek lads...

SvD it wasn't like this was 1 year ago you were saying any of this.

The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation. This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.

So if we take the game to the Faroes, you will finally admit that Trap has changed because he got it wrong, and it was wrong* for a long time, not just getting drubbed by Germany at home?

it was wrong, read wrong any way you like tactics/communication/formation/team lineups/positional play/system/experience/back up plans etc - but it was all something that could have been made right

[SwanVsDalton]

SvD it wasn't like this was 1 year ago you were saying any of this.

I'm not going to slog through the search function to find it (I can't remember what thread it's in - feel free to have a go POS). But if I recall correctly that post was pre-Kazakhstan and in the context of media pressuring Trap to make changes. I simply pointed out I don't think media pressure comes into his thinking much as you seemed to believe.

I still don't, as I've fully explained.

Regardless of when I posted it - if you're not going to apply full context, please don't cite it.

The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation.

I understand your point. I'm just saying - from Trap's view - results have never been so bad, so it's reasonable he'd make changes. This is direct answer to the questions you posted earlier.

This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.

I think this is your real point if I'm honest, which is an I-told-you-so dig - a not particularly subtle one - dressed up in ostensible concern about team selections. You could just say that instead of posting a bunch of questions about why he's picking Seamus Coleman now as opposed to last year.

All I did was directly respond to you asking why he's made the change now - I didn't offer any comment on whether he should've made the same decisions yonks ago. But I feel you're trying to drag a bit out of my posts than is there - perhaps you're looking to get a rise out of me as someone you'd consider a Trapologist?

EDIT - YUP.

So if we take the game to the Faroes, you will finally admit that Trap has changed because he got it wrong, and it was wrong* for a long time, not just getting drubbed by Germany at home?

it was wrong, read wrong any way you like tactics/communication/formation/team lineups/positional play/system/experience/back up plans etc - but it was all something that could have been made right

I've never, ever, ever said Trap was totally 100 per cent right on selection, on tactics and on motivation. What kind of warped Victorian-era judgement system could see things so black and white?

For the record I thought Trap should've went post Euros regardless of result, because I thought his race was run - the changing room needed a fresh voice etc. My feelings on Trap are far more complicated than you're suggesting here.

But no POS - I'll give you what I want. I won't admit Trap was wrong because I still think for two campaigns we were relatively successful, albeit relying on stinking football I hated to watch. Personally I was happy to see us compete near the top table again after three campaigns in the wilderness. That does NOT mean I always agreed with the manager, but I tended to understand where he was coming from and to a certain extent I agreed that results backed his position.

Note 'to a certain extent'. I also always took the point we were due some bad results, as predicted by yourself and others. I said as much the other day.

Naturally that's changed. All is in a state of chassis.

Hey disagree with me, anybody, but if you're going to shine a spotlight in my eyes to force an absurd 'admission', you're going to have to do better than: "Admit you were totally wrong because he's changing things now as opposed to sometime over the past three years!!! Admit I was totally right!!!"

Come on, the situation is far more nuanced than that.

Ahh POS - what we gonna talk about when he's gone?!

[Charlie Darwin]

The point I'm making is the results have changed but he has also started to make the changes to the team and formation. This is what was called for well before the debacle of the Euros, because it was clear to see that we had ridden our luck and eventually the wheels would come off. He has changed things around because he knows he got it wrong, as those who backed him now realise too. But had he actually made the changes earlier - things during his overall tenure, i'm not just talking tactical/player here - then he wouldn't have found himself, nor would his trapologists, in this situation.

I fear he didn't change things because he knows he was wrong. He changed because Robbie was unavailable, and now he's changed back to the old defunct ways.

[SwanVsDalton]

I fear he didn't change things because he knows he was wrong. He changed because Robbie was unavailable, and now he's changed back to the old defunct ways.

Think I'm reading you wrong here but - why change back if he knew he was wrong? Think he's just being stubborn for the sake of it now?

[Charlie Darwin]

Yeah, I wrote that awkwardly, I meant he doesn't think he's wrong so there is a different reason why he changed.

[Murfinator]

Barring a disaster tonight we'll have gone 19 away games unbeaten. Some record.

[paul_oshea]

Yep it could well be that CD.

SVD you don't have time to search but you have time to formulate your opinion and constuct that point

Its never been a told you so, I said that ages ago, its not gloating its simply annoys me how naive some of you were at the start that all was rosy in the garden. If these changes are made early on, and nipped in the bud, in any sporting team or even organisational context, then they get sorted out and you don't have these problems. Everytime we have a manger we have these 2-4 year cycles where there is a witch-hunt etc etc etc, if Trap had been a little smarter and those that defended him too then we wouldn't be here even having these discussions.

Ok maybe, its a bit too much to admit all that, but admit that your opinion and belief in Trap and his results blights your judgement...and therefore you were wrong