From the outset let me say I very rarely attend local matches. I am about to criticise the LOI/IL, but the criticism is intended in a constructive manner. The commitment of local fans can only be admired, but the tight knit nature of the local leagues is such that when one does criticise them the fans can take that criticism almost personally. That disclaimer stated, here goes
I agree with Carrigaline re an all-Ireland league, but there is a tendency to believe it would be a cure all miracle drug for the local game. That isn’t true unfortunately. There are other factors and wider issues with the culture of Irish football
1. We have a culture of winning, no matter how insignificant the victory
2. We waste talent
3. We don’t look outside the British isles
4. Ireland doesn’t take local football seriously
5. Local football doesn’t take itself seriously
1. We have a culture of winning, no matter how insignificant the victory
At all levels of the game, the first question we ask is “what was the score” It’s what we are interested in more than anything else. It’s the first question we ask our mates who play amateur football on monday morning. It’s the first question we ask our kids when they arrive home at lunchtime on saturday. This will never change I would imagine. It is simply impossible to re-educate every mother to stop asking that question. But it does create a culture of holding people back when they should be moving on, particularly with kids. Our junior coaches want to hang on to their best players. They will be delighted if they get picked up by Liverpool or Celtic, but they don’t want them to go across the town to play in a better team 2 divisions above them in the local youth league. Which leads me on to point 2
2. We waste talent
Originally Posted by eekers
There is a huge difference between playing for something other than the result, and removing competition. Talent flourishes when it is surrounded by talent.
Many of us will remember the kid from school, or who went to school with our kids, who was brilliant. He never got picked up by a Man U or an Arsenal, but they might have looked at him, and we would swear that he was good enough. He got to 17 and hadn’t got a move, and buried his talent under Guinness and chips He probably doesn’t even play the game now. If he does he’s out of shape, but he has a first touch that means he doesn’t really have to be fit at the level he plays.
There are only a handful of clubs across the water with the resources to properly scout over here. I remember scouts from Aston Villa and Manchester United looking at youth players I knew, but I don’t remember many from Ipswich or Burnley. If that kid in your mind had been from somewhere like that in England, there is a chance that even though he didn’t make it to a Man U or a Tottenham, he might have been picked up by a local club League 1 or League 2 club, went through their academy, and might have made a living from the game. He may even have been a late developer and ended up playing at a higher level.
In Ireland he probably didn’t make it. Local clubs don’t have the money to invest in proper academies and what underage structures they have don’t put quality players together for them to thrive. Once you get to 16 it’s getting too late to be picked up and you’ve fallen behind similar kids in England and Scotland.
The FAI are realistically the only people who could run this, but we could do with a network of half a dozen or so regional academies where the best talent in Ireland can get proper training and learn how to play the game, where there is competition for every place from some new kids being scouted and no one can afford to relax. And if someone gets a chance to leave and go across the water (to Britain or beyond) all the better. It creates a chance for someone else to come in.
3. We don’t look outside the British Isles
We do not prepare our youth footballers to leave the British Isles, or even expose them to football outside these islands. There is rarely a chance to even watch a game involving 2 non UK/IRL teams on TV. There isn’t a single manager from outside the British Isles working in the LOI (has there ever been?).
In the academies I suggested above, we should have coaches from Portugal and Austria and anywhere else they place a high value on technical ability. In addition to football training, they should of course be getting an education. And that education should have a heavy emphasis on European languages. If you can teach a young football even basis French and German, it is going to open up the chance to make a career of football in not only the French and German leagues, but also in Austria, Switzerland & Belgium.
As it is once footballers leave the British Isles they might as well have fallen off the edge of the world. What video of McGeady in Moscow or Sheridan when he was in Bulgaria we could get mainly took the form of clips on youtube. A magazine show on TV highlighting the exploits of Irish qualified players around the world would improve this and make the rest of the world seem a more realistic proposition to young Irish footballers.
4. Ireland doesn’t take local football seriously
Ireland doesn’t take local football seriously. There is no glamour to the local leagues. You meet the players in the pub, you work with them, they live next door to your mum. What television coverage there is also lacks glamour as the leagues lacks stars. David Jeffrey is one of the most successful managers in the history of either league, but I met him once on the train to Dublin and he was chatting away to my partner who he knew through work about their day job. It’s idle speculation but I would imagine someone of similar status in the Croatian league couldn't travel on the train from Split to Zagreb without being mobbed by people wanting to talk football. In a society where anyone who can cook green beans, do up a living room or take their clothes off is a celebrity our local players and managers have a negligible public profile.
The TV coverage is poor. Not the games fault, but compared to GAA the coverage is amateurish and there isn't much of it. It's a big ask, but as TV goes digital the opportunity also exists to have a dedicated Irish sports channel. There is miles of great sporting footage in the archives that never sees the light of day, it would allow the big live events being shown on the RTE1 or 2 to have the option of Irish language coverage on the sport channel, and between Soccer, GAA, Rugby and other sports RTE already have more sport than they could ever show on the existing channels
5. Local football doesn’t take itself seriously
Perhaps as a result of the status football has in society, local football doesn’t take itself seriously in my opinion. I’ve known and worked with a few Irish league players over the years, and they don’t play for the love of the game, or even see it as a career. To the guys I’ve known it is a handy part time job that builds up the holiday fund or whatever. Despite the fact that they are getting paid, they generally only train on a Tuesday and Thursday. There are club sides working harder than that in the GAA, never mind the hours the county sides put in.
Off the pitch the local game doesn’t demand to be taken seriously. I'm not an expert, but I would imagine it isn't made easy for the broadcaster to cover a local game. Most grounds don’t even have the most basic media facilities. How many local grounds have dedicated commentary positions for example? Or proper mixed zones within the stadiums? I can't recall seeing them, although I stand to be corrected on that.
Facilities for the fans need a huge upgrade, particularly children. If you can get the kids interested, and involved their parents will follow. But much of the experience of going to a big game is absent for local games. On the walk to the stadium there are none of the people selling scarves, hats etc. You don’t get the smell of fried onions filling the air. They don’t see the players on TV during the week, so they don’t know who they are at the weekend. The players all have names like their parents and neighbours.
Irish people can be very cynical, and if the local leagues were given a re-launch many, most in fact, will probably look at it quite cynically. But Irish people go to Disneyland. They know that “Mickey Mouse” is actually a guy on minimum wage in a suit, but their kids buy into the illusion so it’s worth flying to Florida to see little Jack and Chloe enjoy themselves. Similarly if Irish kids see a guy from Portugal called Pedro Costa dribbling his way through the back 4 and slipping a ball past the keeper on TV, they will buy into it. Their dad may well know that he is no closer to the Portugal national team than Michael D Higgins, but they might still take the kids to see a game at the weekend. If nothing else it works out cheaper than going to see Man United or Celtic, and they can put the money saved towards the Disneyland fund.
The Belfast Giants have shown what is possible with the right amount of hype and glitter. On a good weekend they get more people into the Odyssey Arena than the 5 Irish league sides in Belfast manage between them. To watch Ice Hockey.
I have no doubt some of what I have said here is nonsense, and that I’ve made factual errors, but I think the general themes are correct.
Last edited by backstothewall; 17/06/2012 at 12:53 PM.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
...and you make the points very well.
I posted an article (Sean Scannel thread) a while back about the Crystal Palace academy and its emphasis on education. No 18 hours in class = no football. Worth reading. I'll see if I can dig it up.
Fully connecting the football pyramid is critical.
And let's not forget the Danish League...
Backtowalsall, there's too much to digest there before lunch.
I'll peruse and comment properly in a min...
EDIT:
A lot of sense talked and concisely portrays most of what we have discussed on foot.ie since I joined in 2009.
First step unfortunately is the grunt work and we do not possess the people in the right positions who are willing to take it on.
God knows if I could I would get my hands mucky with making Irish soccer a better place but even trying to help out with my brother's team is a nightmare. I can only imagine if I or anyone else came along and started shouting to the junior teams, " You're doing it wrong".
Last edited by BonnieShels; 17/06/2012 at 2:30 PM.
DID YOU NOTICE A SIGN OUTSIDE MY HOUSE...?
off topic - but can you lay off with the British isles rubbish please
What would you prefer? "Atlantic Archipelago"? "These Islands"?
All the alternatives sound daft.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Is it that difficult to say Britain and Ireland (you know, like the British and Irish lions)? or maybe you would prefer just Britain?
How can someone leave Britain and Ireland? You can't leave 2 places simultaneously. That doesn't make any sense. Would you have been happier if I had said "As it is once footballers leave Britain they might as well have fallen off the edge of the world."? Because that sadly is the truth. I used the term British Isles to include our island.
The term is only awkward because people have (recently) choose to make it such. The fact that we are geographically in the British Isles no more implies inferiority to Great Britain than Tenerife being in the Canary Islands inplies inferiority to Gran Canaria. In my experience the only people who see things that way are Irish people with a chip on their shoulder.
Can we get back on topic please?
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
Yeah so use "these islands" then not the British islands which some find offensive. Yeah its a pet hate, I admit that, but then i guess it does annoy me when Im quite often mistaken for a British person. Fine if it doesnt bother you.
And its also not the correct geographical term either!
Yes lets get back on topic - a celtic league, no, will never happen, why would it as there would be zero appetitie for it. Look at how the setanta cup is doing, crowds are low and I dont think the likes of Bangor city, a kilmarnock or a Celtic b team will change anything
Re: Backtowalsall.
Agreed, although I don't really think there's anything that can be done about LOI players and managers sitting on trains with the plebs!
There's nothing like a bit of glamour to drum up interest, especially among younger supporters. And the effect is multiplied the more teams get on board. Look at Shams, now they've got a shiny stadium, and are giving out the vibe that they're a "proper club". Clubs should be doing all they can to improve the matchday experience with all they can throw at it.
But that's not the main thing, the main thing really is retention of talent. I'm not sure of the legality of the situation, but can players' contracts be held by an academy? So young lads would go through the academy system, getting their education, from ages 12 to 18 or 21, the ones who don't get snapped up by foreign clubs take their talent to the domestic leagues, the ones who do will command a transfer fee, which will help fund the academy.
The thing that has totally killed of any prospect of it ever happening is Swansea getting into the EPL. If the Welsh sides playing in the English system could were in a league with Celtic, Rangers, Hearts, Hibs, Aberdeen and Dundee Utd, the standard would be an improvement for all concerned. But Swansea getting into the EPL big time kills of the possibility of getting the involvement of anything but League of Wales sides. It's in no ones interests apart from ours and for that reason it can't happen
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
True, not to mention UEFA's aversion to cross-border leagues such as the Atlantic League mooted several years ago (although Platini has hinted at seeing a Balkan wide league, a Dutch-Belgian league etc. in the past).
Say, 3 or 4 small countries "merge" their leagues. This will then tempt 3 or 4 larger countries to do the same, and so on.
Then the big city teams in the big 4 / 5 leagues will see that the door is open for a European superleague, which they control not UEFA. UEFA will then lose its Champions League product and lose its dominant influence in European football. Of course the EU and the European Court of justice (which adjudicates on matters relating to breaches of EU law - which includes competition law, which in turn affects how football's TV rights are sold etc.) would then have to get involved and in the past they have not looked favourably towards a Superleague.
I'm not sure that these issues aren't insurmountable, but it'd be dangerous ground for UEFA to tread.
I mentioned this possibility in the other thread, but it might be worth repeating here. The answer could lie in borrowing a concept from the worlds best at manufactured hype. Some kind American style talent-draft could be done live on TV once people come to the end of the academy system, to decide which clubs players go to which clubs in the most dramatic manner possible. Either RTE or TV3 would be bound to show it. It would have to be better TV than repeats of reeling in the years. It's a rough idea with practical issues but it could have potential.
I'm a long way from being an expert on either Irish contract law or football regulations, but as far as I know rugby players are contracted centrally to the IRFU, even though they play for the provinces. And players in the MLS are similarly centrally contracted to the league and allocated to a club I think, so there shouldn't be to many problems with football regulations.
A contract signed by someone under 18 isn't worth the paper it's written on, so they would all have to be 18. But I would imagine it would be preferable not to have kids getting kicked up and down in the League of Ireland at 17 anyway (although I would imagine it probably happens).
There might be issues deciding who gets the first draft pick. That could best be solved by abolishing promotion and relegation, which would also ensure the clubs in the LOI were attracting the sort of crowds to make it sustainable *puts on tin hat*.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
The idea of an academy owning player registrations kind of falls into the very murky world of 3rd party ownership which is legal and common in some countries but outlawed in England (post-Tevez). In its worst guises it's basically slave trading of LatAm kids and there are some serious crooks involved. There was a fund in UK called the Hero Global Football Fund advised by David Elleray, Alan Hansen and David Davies but I don't think it got off the ground.
An interesting concept is the Glenn Hoddle Academy in Spain. Some Irish have been through it. The idea being to put recently released 18 year-olds back into full time training and to profit by selling their best players. Somehow the GHA got club status (I think they bought a 3rd division outfit) so they can do this.
I think it can be done within the international rules on 3rd party ownership.
Only international players are centrally contracted, and even then only some internationals. The rest are contracted to and paid by the provinces directly. There was a row over Like Fitzgerald's contract recently which (as far as I know) has ended up with him getting a contract from Leinster rather than Ireland. All the young players who come through are contracted to the province first and only if they make the international team and are considered important enough will they get a central IRFU contract later.
Drafting 18-year-olds to the other end of the country would require wages many multiples of what's currently available to new players in the league to make it anyway attractive. Who's going to move from Dublin to Derry for €80 a week? For this to be viable, the league would have to be much bigger and richer than it is now, which would mean that a draft system would probably be unnecessary to start with!
How would no relegation ensure better crowds?abolishing promotion and relegation, which would also ensure the clubs in the LOI were attracting the sort of crowds to make it sustainable *puts on tin hat*.
We're not arrogant, we're just better.
I know. I was only citing the example to prove it is legal under Irish law. If it's legal for Brian O'Driscoll it's legal for anyone
As I said, there are rough edges on this plan. There could be some sort of system where you sign a contract with the FAI on your 18th birthday taking you up until a whole season after you leave the academy, then after the draft you technically go on a season long loan, with the FAI paying a percentage of your wages which the clubs would like. Or all professionals in Ireland could be contracted to the FAI which would give them a degree of protection from the financial mess some clubs have gotten themselves into.
Because the clubs that attract the biggest crowds would always be there. In the event that you finish last, instead of being relegated and plunged into financial crisis you get 1st draft pick and get the best emerging talent in Ireland into your squad and hopefully do better next year. And your place in the league wouldn't be taken by a club that despite attracting crowds in the 100s rather than 1000s has managed to get promoted. The clubs with bigger crowds always being there increases travelling support which increases revenues for all clubs and over time the pie gets bigger. That's the theory anyway
But like I said *puts on tin hat*
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
I'll try and get back to the substantive points, but I wouldn't rush to use the Belfast Giants as an example - I remember when the Manchester Giants (basketball) and Manchester Storm (ice hockey) were packing out the Manchester Areana....
If you attack me with stupidity, I'll be forced to defend myself with sarcasm.
Except it wont produce better players, sending the best young player to play in the worst side will not improve him, higher placed clubs have better players, and can generally afford better coaches also. Playing with better players can only improve you, players regularly say that. This system flies against that.
I never said it would. You are confusing 2 issues. I suggested abolishing promotion and relegation as it has to potential to increase crowds and provide more financial stability. At the moment promotion and relegation seem to be being decided by financial problems off the pitch as often as by results on it.
I'm only talking about sending players to LOI clubs at 18/19 after 3 or 4 years of intensive, proper training in a national academy system, developing their technical abilities instead of playing kick and run football in local under-age leagues. If that doesn't improve the standard of players coming out of our under-age set-up I don't know what will. It has to be better than the current system of shipping everyone we can to England and Scotland, and letting those left behind to get stuck into the Guinness. A similar system is operating very successfully for the MLS and by extension for the American national team. As long as every suggestion someone in this country makes for trying to improve something is shot down nothing is going to change. What is your suggestion? More of the same?
I appreciate what you are saying about Ice Hockey Macy, it is a notoriously unstable business, but the Giants are operating for 12 years now, and have only had the 1 financial crisis in 2002ish which was brought on by the league they were in folding. I wasn't using the example to suggest anything other than what can be achieved if you provide a family friendly atmosphere and good facilities. I have never seen a single kid playing that in line hockey thing around Belfast, yet they go in their thousands to watch it. Rugby has managed the same thing with the provinces.
Football should surely be able to match that.
Bring Back Belfast Celtic F.C.
No, no, I'm not shooting at you for the sake of it, there is value in what you say, however, after investing 3 or 4 years of proper coaching into your best young guy, I don't agree that its for the betterment to then send him to keep the company of weaker players, at that age he will be peaking and will need to kick on. Also, as we are working from a small population base to begin with, its key our elite few's talent is maximized.
Unlikely I realize but as an alternative suggestion, what if such an academy forged links with European sides, like certain bigger clubs in the UK have in Belgium (as a loose example) where the best young guys could spend a period in that system, imagine if we could get it to a standard whereby the most admired European academies were lining up to give our guys a place.
Maybe that's beyond us, I don't know, it would be nice to somehow bypass the UK route into anti football and in most cases the scrap heap.
Is Cornwell included?
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