2011 Presidential Election

[DannyInvincible]

As for the "some people can make comments " reference, I was reffering to Norris v Teacher or Priest scenario.

It was already pointed out to you that the context of the comments is crucial to forming a judgment. Norris isn't in a position - nor will be be if he does happen to win the presidential election - that entrusts him with the care or responsibility of minors. That's the distinction.

[Macy]

What do people make of Niall O'Dowd throwing his hat in the ring? There was a letter in the IT today wondering whether somebody who is a naturalised US citizenship can run for the presidency? Dev had US citizenship from birth, and acquired Irish citizenship, but this is the reverse of that particular coin.

As far as I'm aware, you can have dual Irish/ US citizenship, so I'd be surprised if O'Dowd doesn't have it. To be honest, I'd consider him another independent FFer - he was certainly a cheerleader for them during the boom. I know he's the brother of Fergus, but I'm pretty sure I remember a documentary on him a few years ago where he said he was an FF supporter despite his background. I think he could be an alright president, but anyone who was a backer of Bartholomew is forever tainted for me.

[Eminence Grise]

anyone who was a backer of Bartholomew is forever tainted for me.

That's like something you'd read in Paradise Lost to describe one of Beelzebub's disciples!

I'm ambivalent on O'Dowd running, although he does have better connections in the US than any other putative candidate, and they might be useful in the next few years. I'd prefer him to Cox, who jumps from political bed to political bed seeking his own self-promotion (FF to PD to Independent to FG?). Mary O'Rourke called him smug on radio the other day; rich coming from a backer of Bartholomew (like Enda Kenny, i'm paying you a tribute by stealing your best lines!)

[Angus]

Angus, you've asked the questions that the meeja should be asking, but won't as they won't sell adverts!

Why would I vote for DN, what has he done?
1. He was a leader in the fight to save Wood Quay. He, along with Mary Robinson and John Bradley, and FX Martin, lay down in front of bulldozers and were kicked senseless in the bid to get them out of the way. He spoke massive amounts of sense about how we were destroying the past for future generations and how short term gain was killing long term profit. Also he was one of those who pointed out that the destruction of the most significant Viking settlement in the World did not have to be destroyed so completely.
2. He asked questions in the Seanaid in 1989-90 formally complaining about the shenanigans (his words) of the then DPP in relation to sex abuse cases in a major North Dublin Primary and Secondary School. He challenged the CB's to come forward with explanations and went so far as to go to the Gardai in the area to register a complaint.
3. He has been involved in a number of very charitable causes and not been seen to do so. I can name 2 that can be followed up on including the right for women to be allowed box (anyone who went to NUI Maynooth between 1997-99 can verify this). The second was in raising funds for an animal shelter in Ashtown.
4. Academically, while narrowly published, he is very respected abroad, in the Centre of Irish Studies in Voronezh a number of his papers are used for end of year tests - I always said that if you can understand what the heck he's on about then you get a 1st class honour!

I believe he is a decent person, who needs to calm himself down, who can be a great ambassador for Ireland and who can really help our economy. However I do fear that his chance has gone and we'll be stuck with a party animal, but not the good Road Trip kind.

Good ! OK, some genuine achievements there....

[DannyInvincible]

As far as I'm aware, you can have dual Irish/ US citizenship

Yeah, the US imposes no limitation on its citizen possessing dual citizenship.

The out of context argument would not save a Teachers job or a Priest, and will not stop Mr Norris losing votes from people who were going to vote for him. He admits this himself.

I think that's something slightly different. Anyway, you said you couldn't see the logic in why it might be considered more irresponsible or whatever for a teacher or priest to discuss what Norris was discussing in an intellectual capacity. If you can't see that there might be a distinction there given that the former examples are entrusted with roles of responsibility over children in their professional duty whilst Norris is not, nor will be, fair enough.

What particular content of what Norris said has you getting so up in arms?

[Spudulika]

You know what, Bertie is beginning to look not so bad with how things are going. At least we know he'd be able to smooze, plus we know his price.

[dahamsta]

Hurt Locker suspended for 1 week as a result of 3 infractions in quick succession. Also permabanned from Current Affairs for the homophobic nonsense I've moved to the bin. I trust we can move back to a more mature level now...

[peadar1987]

Hurt Locker suspended for 1 week as a result of 3 infractions in quick succession. Also permabanned from Current Affairs for the homophobic nonsense I've moved to the bin. I trust we can move back to a more mature level now...

I'm sorely tempted to make a grossly homophobic remark just to drag the thread back down! And I wouldn't even be able to redeem myself by posting something interesting or insightful about any of the candidates!

For what it's worth, I think that if Norris had said that his opinions had changed over the past few years, it'd be suicide, as it would imply to many people that he did support paedophilia at some point. I think the best course of action*, politically speaking, is to say that the quotes were taken out of context. And with the elusiveness of the tapes (or the machinery to play them on, to be precise), it's looking like this could well be the truth.

*Save simply being Bertie, who can tell people to kill themselves with apparent impunity

[culloty82]

I'm sorely tempted to make a grossly homophobic remark just to drag the thread back down! And I wouldn't even be able to redeem myself by posting something interesting or insightful about any of the candidates!

For what it's worth, I think that if Norris had said that his opinions had changed over the past few years, it'd be suicide, as it would imply to many people that he did support paedophilia at some point. I think the best course of action*, politically speaking, is to say that the quotes were taken out of context. And with the elusiveness of the tapes (or the machinery to play them on, to be precise), it's looking like this could well be the truth.

*Save simply being Bertie, who can tell people to kill themselves with apparent impunity

In response to today's Daily Mail, Norris has released this letter:

Over the last number of days quotes, opinions and beliefs on a range of societal
issues have been attributed to me, some correct and others grossly inaccurate.
To combat any further confusion or interpretation of my position on these matters
I have personally outlined below my opinions on the subjects raised.

As the longest serving Senator of the State I fight on a daily basis for a better
society for all, introducing legislation and structures to support the most
vulnerable citizens of our country. My record is testament to my commitment in
this area.

With your continued support I will carry on my campaign to become President of
Ireland, with even greater and renewed impetus, determination and strength; A
President who will represent its people.

Legalising Drugs

Living in inner-city Dublin, I am acutely aware of the harmful affects that the
drug culture has had on my community and wider society. The blunt instrument
of criminalisation is not working because of the vast profits it generates for
organised crime. No country can face this problem on its own. I believe that there
needs to be a European led global response. Hard as it is to accept, my view is
that the welfare of the community, including the victims of drug abuse may be
better served by having access to quality controlled, legally prescribed drugs.

What is your view on prostitution?

My views and opinions on prostitution have always been directed towards the
welfare and protection of the women involved and the introduction of whatever
means necessary to ensure their safety and well-being.

What is your view on incest?

Incest is morally and medically wrong. It is dangerous and illegal and justifiably
so.

What is your view on abortion?

The issue of abortion is always a sensitive, personal and emotive issue in our
society. I believe that access to information and education is the true champion of
reducing the instance of abortion. My hope is that both sides in this difficult moral
debate will respect each other’s differences.

The Catholic Church

I have very many Catholic friends and as a devout Christian, I have the greatest
respect for the commitment and faith shown by many people, the length and
breath of the country. My criticisms are not aimed at the honest decent men
and women of faith, who have played a significant role in the founding and
development of our country, but rather with the Vatican as a political entity and
institution and its interference in matters of state. Also as a gay man, I find the
Pope’s teachings on homosexuality negative and ill-informed.

Child Protection

I abhor child abuse in all its forms: psychological, sexual or emotional. I have
always campaigned for Children’s rights and was central in introducing the
appointment of guardian ad litem (mandatory legal representation for children) to
child protection cases in court to ensure that the rights of the child are properly
represented. I have also spoken out strongly in the Seanad on the recent
Roscommon Child abuse case and on all reports into child abuse. My record in
this area speaks for itself.

Cathal O’Searcaigh

I have only met Cathal O’Searcaigh once on Wicklow St. in Dublin, I have no
other connection or relationship to him. I am a strong believer in natural justice
and if the allegations that were made in the documentary are true this is a matter
for the authorities to investigate and if necessary to prosecute if a crime has been
demonstrated. I feel that the trial by media that took place around this issue
would have frustrated any proceedings and that a court of law was the place to
have these discussions and not on afternoon chat shows.

Age of consent

In my view, the people best equipped to make these difficult moral and legal
decisions are the judiciary. Legislation based on the principle of consent
empowers the judiciary.
Consent based on age, has resulted in many instances in the inappropriate
criminal prosecution of minors.
This is the approach that I would personally support.

Pederasty

Pederasty is a term describing sexual relations between an older and a younger
man in ancient Greece. My experience as a young man in Dublin was that there
were no social outlets for gay men. I was left in ignorance by society and didn’t
consciously meet another gay male until I was in my 20s. The subject was
surrounded by silence and fear. Then I read Plato’s symposium, in which there is
a discussion about the nature of love. The greatest philosopher ever argued that
physical love was the gateway to spiritual love, very movingly it concludes with
the most beautiful young man in Athens, Alcibiades admitting that he has offered
himself sexually to Socrates in return for sharing in Socrates’ wisdom. This text
was preserved throughout the middle ages. I saw this enlightening approach and
experience as a much more interesting and preferable introduction to sexuality
than my own experience. That is my own personal opinion.

Spectrum of justice

As a legislator and a citizen, I have always upheld and supported the law. I
believe in justice delivered proportionately, across the spectrum of the relevant
crime. Sexual abuse is always wrong, but as in all crimes, there is a spectrum
and this is appropriately recognised in sentencing policy and throughout Irish law.

Media Reporting of Abuse

My comments relating to the impact of media reporting on the victims of sex
abuse being worse than the actual abuse have been misconstrued and have
caused hurt, for which I am saddened. I have always spoken out on behalf of the
victims of abuse and feel that anyone that has suffered any form of abuse, must
report it to the authorities and the perpetrators should face the full rigours of the
law. I would like to think that people would judge me on my track record on child
protection and my political contribution in this area.

Every candidate in every election has personal opinions, which they must set
aside in order to fulfil their public duties and I intend to be no different and to
reflect the broad opinions of a proud Irish nation.

Senator David Norris
9th June 2011

[BonnieShels]

Norris on Morning Ireland now.

[bennocelt]

What is your view on incest?

Wow thats a great question to ask. Will all the candidates be asked this vital question?

[Lionel Ritchie]

Wow thats a great question to ask. Will all the candidates be asked this vital question?

No not all. Just the ones from Kerry, North Cork, East Clare, Offaly, Mayo, Fermanagh...

[Spudulika]

I'm thinking horse, bolted, stable, door, close. He can't help himself on some subjects, it's pure ego and arrogance, which is a mark of his goodness as a person, academic and debater, however he dug his own grave. Criticising a religious institution for it's views on lifestyle choice is nuts. Especially in modern Ireland. And pederasty - David, let it go. You need to lighten up and do a Father Ted (anyone think of the Chienese episode and the local bigot lady?)

[passinginterest]

The Journal had another poll and Norris is still miles ahead. I'd imagine that reflects a lot on the readership of an online news site like the journal as well as the fact that Norris supporters seem to be very active online. If you want to annoy yourself then have a read of the comments after.
http://www.thejournal.ie/poll-who-wo...51619-Jun2011/

[dahamsta]

I'm not going to link to garbage, but I noticed another article by John Waters popping up in on google news this morning saying: "The media should withdraw from electioneering and go back to doing its job." I reckon one more article and he'll fold back in on himself and disappear in a puff of smoke as the world finally notices and deals with an impossible anomaly.

To channel Denis Leary: "Talk about the pot and the f*cking kettle!"

[Eminence Grise]

John Waters ... one more article and he'll fold back in on himself and disappear in a puff of smoke[/I]

Let it be soon!

Meanwhile, Gay Mitchell could scupper Pat Cox's chances of a FG nomination with a late decision to seek the party nomination. Should go down well with the FG grass roots,and I reckon he would have a better chance of winning than Cox.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2011/0610/president.html

And David Norris needs to stop talking right now. I hate to say it, but he's getting abysmal communications advice. Every time he appears in public he draws attention to the issue, rather than drawing a line under it. I can't remember which station I was listening to yesterday, but a pol corr reckoned he has 10 Oireachtas nominees in the bag, with the ULA likely to add their 5 to him since there is no leftwing candidate. He needs to canvass the Oireachtas to get the remaining 5 (or 10) nominees, and then concentrate on winning public support.

[dahamsta]

The idea of Cox as President is abhorrent to me. He's a nasty piece of work and no mistake.

[Macy]

The idea of Cox as President is abhorrent to me. He's a nasty piece of work and no mistake.

Mitchell is worse - already out with the "Christian Democrat" nonsense for the anti gay camp. Mind you, most will associate Christian Democrat with Merkel, so not sure it's that good a card to play anyway.

[culloty82]

In other news, it seems the Greens are putting out feelers about running Mary White as a candidate. Of course, confusingly FF's Mary White also has had interest in running for the job in the past.

[dahamsta]

Sexuality discussion split to here.