Sporting Fingal Gone Belly Up

**marinobohs** · 13/10/2010, 12:11 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

I wouldn't write a club off because they are new, but I disagree with previous posters in relation to the level of following. If a club does not attract a large crowd, or have the potential to do so, they should not be allowed into the league. My own club, Finn Harps are not currently doing good crowds because they are going through bad times but they have shown over several decades that they have the potential to attract big crowds when they are going well. Several clubs cannot say the same. I note Monaghan were cited above as an example of a club who should not be discriminated against because their crowds are poor. Why not? They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.

In several previous threads I have listed 6 or 7 clubs who should be removed from the league and the idea of a promotion/ relagation play-off to secure access to senior football should be scrapped.

I appreciate I have gone slightly off track but I feel Fingal need to be considered in the context of a wider debate about the excessive number of clubs in the League.

Finally the artificial backing Fingal receive from the developer and the Council skews things badly as other teams have to compete for players signatures with them and this forces wages upwards at a time when clubs can ill afford it.

Same argument RE crowds has been made about UCD especially for years, makes no sense to me as they have proven them selves on the pitch (where eligibility shouild be decided) and have found themselves a niche developing many young players. As long as clubs prove themselves on the pitch then it is ludicrous to suggest they should be removed from the league. 3/4 "big" well supported clubs does not constitute a league.

Please explain why the money Fingal got from the developer and council "skews things badly" when it was OK for Pats (for example) to be bankrolled to a much greater extent ? It is up to each club to decide how much they will spend on wages irrespective of what other clubs are doing. many of the clubs you feel have no place in the new world order did not join the "wage race" and have/will outlasted many of the traditionally bigger clubs.

**legendz** · 13/10/2010, 12:28 PM

Clubs can't be stopped joining the league based on crowds, that'd be ridiculous. Criteria has to be met to join the First Division and once that is met in terms of ground, covered seating at a certain number etc. etc., no club should be stopped.
If some clubs suffer a fall from grace it's tough but that is sport. Cobh have had to rebuild in the A Championship, if other clubs have to, they'll have to get on with it.
On Fingal, I understand the concept for the club was effectively created by Fingal County Council as part of a long-term development plan for Soccer in Fingal. This is what any new club should look to do, develop the gloabal game in their area.

**micls** · 13/10/2010, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.

And that's what football is all about? Depressing.

Monaghan are properly run, sustainable, having a successful season, and giving their fans and community something to be proud of.

**passerrby** · 13/10/2010, 1:01 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

I wouldn't write a club off because they are new, but I disagree with previous posters in relation to the level of following. If a club does not attract a large crowd, or have the potential to do so, they should not be allowed into the league. My own club, Finn Harps are not currently doing good crowds because they are going through bad times but they have shown over several decades that they have the potential to attract big crowds when they are going well. Several clubs cannot say the same. I note Monaghan were cited above as an example of a club who should not be discriminated against because their crowds are poor. Why not? They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.

In several previous threads I have listed 6 or 7 clubs who should be removed from the league and the idea of a promotion/ relagation play-off to secure access to senior football should be scrapped.

I appreciate I have gone slightly off track but I feel Fingal need to be considered in the context of a wider debate about the excessive number of clubs in the League.
and we are not there just because we are better on the pitch as you are but because we are better run

Finally the artificial backing Fingal receive from the developer and the Council skews things badly as other teams have to compete for players signatures with them and this forces wages upwards at a time when clubs can ill afford it.

may i refer you to the league table.

**Mr A** · 13/10/2010, 1:06 PM

If the 'big' clubs ran themselves properly, there would be no need to discriminate against smaller teams, they'd find their own level naturally.

**peadar1987** · 13/10/2010, 2:14 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

I wouldn't write a club off because they are new, but I disagree with previous posters in relation to the level of following. If a club does not attract a large crowd, or have the potential to do so, they should not be allowed into the league. My own club, Finn Harps are not currently doing good crowds because they are going through bad times but they have shown over several decades that they have the potential to attract big crowds when they are going well. Several clubs cannot say the same. I note Monaghan were cited above as an example of a club who should not be discriminated against because their crowds are poor. Why not? They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.

In several previous threads I have listed 6 or 7 clubs who should be removed from the league and the idea of a promotion/ relagation play-off to secure access to senior football should be scrapped.

I appreciate I have gone slightly off track but I feel Fingal need to be considered in the context of a wider debate about the excessive number of clubs in the League.

Finally the artificial backing Fingal receive from the developer and the Council skews things badly as other teams have to compete for players signatures with them and this forces wages upwards at a time when clubs can ill afford it.

It's not like Monaghan are taking massive amounts of support away from Bohemians and Cork City. Maybe Bray have a few fans who would otherwise have followed Shams, but the point is that none of these clubs are hurting the league. In fact, they're hurting the league a lot less than the high-profile clubs who implode, so why deny their right to play at the highest level? Especially when one of the biggest barstool argments against supporting the league in places like Westmeath, Mayo and Tipp is that there's no team local to them to identify with

**bennocelt** · 13/10/2010, 2:16 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

I wouldn't write a club off because they are new, but I disagree with previous posters in relation to the level of following. If a club does not attract a large crowd, or have the potential to do so, they should not be allowed into the league.
I note Monaghan were cited above as an example of a club who should not be discriminated against because their crowds are poor. Why not? They bring nothing to the party and have little or no attraction for sponsors and television.

In several previous threads I have listed 6 or 7 clubs who should be removed from the league and the idea of a promotion/ relagation play-off to secure access to senior football should be scrapped.

Rubbish
Football isnt all about big gates and sponsorships
UCD and Fingal bring good football played in the right spirit to the LOI. UCD are very well run as a small club.
Mervue and S Devon are in the league on merit.
And its not exactly like Finn harps are a model club, how many more community raffles and draws will you have in the future to save the club!!!!

**legendz** · 13/10/2010, 2:28 PM

Originally Posted by peadar1987

It's not like Monaghan are taking massive amounts of support away from Bohemians and Cork City. Maybe Bray have a few fans who would otherwise have followed Shams, but the point is that none of these clubs are hurting the league. In fact, they're hurting the league a lot less than the high-profile clubs who implode, so why deny their right to play at the highest level? Especially when one of the biggest barstool argments against supporting the league in places like Westmeath, Mayo and Tipp is that there's no team local to them to identify with

Identity is important. If regions don't have a club they can identify with, the game will suffer. I could never imagine Mayo supporting Galway or Sligo, at least they have some foot on the football ladder now with Castlebar.

**Big Chief** · 13/10/2010, 2:58 PM

Marinobohs,
Firstly it is not acceptable for St Pat's Athletic or any other team to be artificially funded and I do not condone the way they have spent money ridiculously. Whilst I have no personal love for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry, Dundalk etc I still can't help but feel if those clubs were to disappear and we were to be left with Fingal, UCD, Monaghan and the likes the league would be a much poorer place for it.

Legendz,
Of course clubs can and indeed should be prevented from entering a league if they can't drum up decent support. I can see little attraction in allowing teams with no fans or a few dozen at best being allowed to enter the highest echelons of football in this country.

Micls,
Football is about entertainment and atmosphere. If you have had the pleasure of attending a game in Monaghan recently you'll find both in fairly short supply. If crowds improve, armosphere improves and similarly the standard of fare on offer normally does likewise.

Passerby,
League tables change from one year to the next, in a longer term vision for the league I wouldn't get too caught up in the here and now. I would have thought the fact that more Harps fans were in attendance at Gortakeegan recently, to support a very poor team, than locals who bothered to show up to watch a team riding high in the league says it all. No fans, no good!

The point has been raised that football should be about more than television and sponsors. Perhaps this would have some merit were it not for the fact that football clubs operate in the real world where they are actually businesses and, although some of them have sidestep to avoid this issue, bills have to be paid and financial commitments met. Consequently every penny counts and teams with no fans do not make the league attractive from the point of view of enticing sponsorship and TV monies. If all clubs were capable of playing to good crowds then the money coming in would increase as the proposition of involvement with the League becomes more attractive to businesses.

It has further been suggested that Monaghan and the likes do not draw supporters away from the bigger clubs. Perhaps not but they do ensure that the prize money and sponsorship money has been spread more thinly to ensure they receive a slice of the pie. Fewer clubs is the way forward.

Finally for those inclined to criticise Finn Harps and the financial mismanagement of the club, I agree entirely. The club have been poorly managed in previous years and are certainly not to be held up as any kind of model in that regard. The fact does remain however they have potential, more than quite a few others can boast.

**pineapple stu** · 13/10/2010, 3:05 PM

Bohs are only perceived as a big club because they spent lots of money becoming something they're not. I don't think the Premier is any worse off for not having Shels in it, for example. I think that line gets trotted out far too often.

How entertaining Monaghan are to watch has absolutely no relevance to a Finn Harps fan, by and large (except when you're watching Monaghan, obviously).

Small clubs aren't hurting anyone in the league. I thought we'd moved on from that baseless notion.

**marinobohs** · 13/10/2010, 3:13 PM

[QUOTE=Big Chief;1412022]Marinobohs,
Firstly it is not acceptable for St Pat's Athletic or any other team to be artificially funded and I do not condone the way they have spent money ridiculously. Whilst I have no personal love for Shamrock Rovers, Bohemians, Derry, Dundalk etc I still can't help but feel if those clubs were to disappear and we were to be left with Fingal, UCD, Monaghan and the likes the league would be a much poorer place for it.

Most LOI fans dont want to see any club go belly up (does appear a certain facination with it on FOOT.IE at times) and in my opinion the League can ill affoed to lose any clubs - including Fingal UCD etc. Places in the Prem etc should be decided on the pitch not the stands/terraces.

Would disagree with you RE Pats spending (3/4 years back) they had it to spend so why shouldnt they ? Did themselves or the League no harm even though it was hardly a success. That other clubs less well (financially) supported got into a bidding war in their own fault not Pats.

**marinobohs** · 13/10/2010, 3:17 PM

Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Bohs are only perceived as a big club because they spent lots of money becoming something they're not. I don't think the Premier is any worse off for not having Shels in it, for example. I think that line gets trotted out far too often.

How entertaining Monaghan are to watch has absolutely no relevance to a Finn Harps fan, by and large (except when you're watching Monaghan, obviously).

Small clubs aren't hurting anyone in the league. I thought we'd moved on from that baseless notion.

Bohs are perceived as a big club based on history, success and the central role of Dalymount Park in Irish football. No amount of revisionism is going to change those simple facts.
The Premier is poorer for the loss of Shels (likewise Cork and Derry). Some LOI fans aspire to something bigger than the Leinster Senior League.

**peadar1987** · 13/10/2010, 3:19 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

snip

Once the league is decided anywhere other than on the pitch (with the obvious exceptions of licensing criteria such as financial stability and ground safety), it loses its credibility. Why stop at barring small clubs who have earned their place on merit. Why not decide promotion to the Premier League on average attendance. Why not just award the title to Shams?

**passerrby** · 13/10/2010, 3:26 PM

the position in the tables are not just indicitive of our better football but better management of our club and not just this year but every year if i was narrow minded i could point out that your inability to harness the obivous support and run a steady ship should exclude you from being in the league of ireland
as for potential ive been hearing that old chestnut for years with no end product. no more licenses for potential.
oh and dont kid yourself you brought down about 20 fans to a game with 320 in attendance.

**pineapple stu** · 13/10/2010, 3:29 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Bohs are perceived as a big club based on history, success and the central role of Dalymount Park in Irish football. No amount of revisionism is going to change those simple facts.

Bohs are a big club based on decades of amateur status and re-applying to join the league? Sorry, don't agree. Sure even the older Rovers fans will tell you the Bohs/Rovers rivalry is a recent invention, borne of Drumcondra's demise and Bohs finally starting to win some games around the 80s.

The Premier is poorer for the loss of Shels (likewise Cork and Derry). Some LOI fans aspire to something bigger than the Leinster Senior League.

The things that Shels brought to the league - crowds of 2000, full-time football, former internationals, European success - were all a direct result of their unsustainable overspending. That was never going to keep up, so to have had it stopped can't really be considered a loss to the league. Ditto Bohs, by the way.

You can take the moral high ground with your "aspiring" all you want; we've seen what's happened each and every LoI club to aspire to unattainable dreams.

**Roo69** · 13/10/2010, 3:32 PM

Originally Posted by marinobohs

Bohs are perceived as a big club based on history, success and the central role of Dalymount Park in Irish football. No amount of revisionism is going to change those simple facts.
The Premier is poorer for the loss of Shels (likewise Cork and Derry). Some LOI fans aspire to something bigger than the Leinster Senior League.

Why is it poorer though? These clubs where being run absolutely shockingly and in Derry's case they cheated with dual contracts. How does having clubs like this in a top division benefit the top division?

Their fans are sorely missed alright but IMO that is not a basis to say that the Premier is a poorer place without these clubs. At present these clubs do not deserve their place in the Premier so it cannot be a poorer league without them in it.

I personally think the League would be a poorer place without the likes of Bray and UCD in it. We are youth development focused clubs and pretty much supply the rest of the league with some of the best young talent in the country, we run tight ships and are virtually ever in the news for the wrong reasons. This is our 6th season in the Premier after having 19 odd years of being a yo-yo club, we have worked our holes off to try and stablise the club and work within very small budgets. We 100% deserve our place in this League.

**Dodge** · 13/10/2010, 3:36 PM

Originally Posted by Big Chief

Marinobohs,
Firstly it is not acceptable for St Pat's Athletic or any other team to be artificially funded and I do not condone the way they have spent money ridiculously. .

Artificially funded? nothing artificial about it at all.

Pats are funded the same way 99% of clubs in the world are. mixture of income, fundraising and director investment

As has been said 100s of times. pats have been under budget the alst few years. Where the budget comes from (whether its Pats, Fingal, Bohs or anyone else) shouldn't matter to opposition fans

**osarusan** · 13/10/2010, 3:43 PM

Yet another thread derailed by the notion that by excluding the 'minnows' from the LOI, the game will be improved. As Mr.A said, let every team find its level naturally. The fact that Longford survive in the LOI with an average (according to Stu's thread) of 236 reflects badly on the league, not them. The fact that a team like Limerick can get only 629 souls on average to our home games from a city of thousands doesn't say much for us, despite our 'potential', which has seen us break the record for the longest period in Irish football's bottom flight.

There is a league structure in place, and Mervue and Salthill got to the LOI through it. They're here on merit. They should only be replaced on merit.

And finally, if we're taking teams out of the equation that aren't attractive to the general public or to sponsors, then there wouldn't be a single team left in the LOI.

**The Lep** · 13/10/2010, 4:17 PM

Originally Posted by Spudulika

The worst thing that will happen is that they have to cut their cloth for next season, anything else is simply wishful thinking and opposition "fans" glorying in a club's difficulties. Getting into Europe will mean enough money to come in to finish outside of relegation next season, the worst thing is they lose some players and survive or battle to finish in a relegation play-off. Non-story that will be picked up on by a journo visiting the site and turned into fodder against our league again!

Thats about it really.