Northern Ireland

[Predator]

To be honest, they sound a bit oversensitive. Or maybe they're pulling your leg?

Possibly (although I doubt they'd 'pull my leg' over such an issue), but it is certainly an indication of how some people feel when they travel to Windsor Park, if even only for an amateur under-age game.

Not sure what you're referring here, but the implication that NI fans tend to support England is wrong. Of course, as a largely successful country who to tend to qualify, and whose leagues dominate the local media, they have some fans in NI- but then the same applies in the Republic too. For example, RTE's advertising rates for England games are much higher than for any other foreign country. Because they attract a bigger audience (source: Ken Early, Newstalk 106, Dublin).

I can't see how it can be wrong, when the guys in question, wearing N.I. jerseys, were cheering when the England youth team scored - my apologies if it came across as if I was speaking in general terms. I was in fact speaking about the same game that the people I know were at. But you have a point, it might not necessarily be an indication of the majority of supporters' allegiance.

If- for example- the two FAs- agreed not to pick players from each other's area, or at least not if they'd already played for the other's youth and U-21 teams

I understand your concern about that so-called 'agreement', but further developments had transpired after that and prior to the Gibson situation. I certainly would fully back any young man born on the island of Ireland, to decide what his national identity is, especially taking into account our unique history.

[Gather round]

Possibly (although I doubt they'd 'pull my leg' over such an issue), but it is certainly an indication of how some people feel when they travel to Windsor Park, if even only for an amateur under-age game

I've being going to games at Windsor since the early 70s and never had that sort of problem (although admittedly my real name is Billy ). More importantly, I've never seen nor heard anyone else experience it recently.

I can't see how it can be wrong, when the guys in question, wearing N.I. jerseys, were cheering when the England youth team scored

Sorry to be sceptical. I'd probably be a bit more convinced if you said you'd seen it yourself.

it might not necessarily be an indication of the majority of supporters' allegiance

It definitely isn't.

I understand your concern about that so-called 'agreement', but further developments had transpired after that and prior to the Gibson situation

See threads previously (and there are plenty). But I was just explaining here why Gibson gets stick and NI fans are whining. As I said, I don't agree with it, but neither of us can be surprised that it happens.

I certainly would fully back any young man born on the island of Ireland, to decide what his national identity is, especially taking into account our unique history

Good man. I've no problem with anyone's national identity, whether it's shared, or changed, or whatever. However, I do think that it's reasonable for

a) adult footballers to be able to play for only one country during their career, and

b) the age at which they're considered adult to be rather lower than it is now, ie 18.

[Den Perry]

Unless Mr. Perry prefers to "nitpick", so as to draw attention from my main point, which he still declines to address.

Namely, he uses a bunch of bigots in a sh1tty NI housing estate abusing some kids from a Dublin schoolboy team, as an excuse not to support the NI football team, despite the fact that this occurred at midnight, was nowhere near any football game and didn't involve any (identifiable) NI football fans.



Back to you, Den.

Please get your facts correct before attempting to interpret my argument....

Where did I mention midnight attack?or sh1tty council estate? The abuse was meted out by both adults and children before and during under16 games....perhaps this was an oversight on your part, or it could be that you are so argumentative you refuse to see the facts...

[Gather round]

OK Den, but the question remains- why do you think some abuse at a youth game (however unpleasant) is worse than a large minority of another country's support smashing up Lansdowne Road?

[Den Perry]

OK Den, but the question remains- why do you think some abuse at a youth game (however unpleasant) is worse than a large minority of another country's support smashing up Lansdowne Road?

GR, have you become EGs spokesman?

To answer your question? probably not, but the original question was to whether or not we would support NI. The abuse suffered at the Milk Cup was one of the reasons I gave....

[Gather round]

GR, have you become EGs spokesman?

To answer your question? probably not, but the original question was to whether or not we would support NI. The abuse suffered at the Milk Cup was one of the reasons I gave....

Think of me more as your editor, Den

Your original reply was that you would support any other team than NI. You then ignored later questions about why we were so much worse than other fans with a reputation for misbehaving at matches.

[Den Perry]

Think of me more as your editor, Den

Your original reply was that you would support any other team than NI. You then ignored later questions about why we were so much worse than other fans with a reputation for misbehaving at matches.

My reply is that I would still support any other team more than NI. My reasons I listed above.With regard to you're questions as to whether or not you are worse than any other fans - I would say some yes....others no.However, different situations affect people in different ways, and thus my experiences of NI fans mean I would support any other team opposing NI(possibly with the exception of Turkey....can't make my mind up on that one).

Perhaps if I suffer at the hands of, say, San Marino in the future I shall change my views

[Gather round]

I suppose I should be flattered, always assuming we can hold off the challenge from Turkey. Can I ask what bad experience you had watching them?

[Den Perry]

I suppose I should be flattered, always assuming we can hold off the challenge from Turkey. Can I ask what bad experience you had watching them?

Actually, I never experienced anything bad while following Ireland against Turkey. However a few friends told me that they were urinated on,from tiers above by home supporters at a Euro Qualifier for 1992 finals. Then, some years later in Izmir there was war where the fans invaded the pitch and Tony Cascarino got punched(though that might not be a bad thing lol). I suppose what really angers me is that the turks were responsible for some serious stuff and always seemed to get away with it...

However,I also had the lack of sense to travel with Leeds United to Istanbul in 2000 when the two Leeds fans were stabbed to death.

[EalingGreen]

Please get your facts correct before attempting to interpret my argument....

Where did I mention midnight attack?or sh1tty council estate? The abuse was meted out by both adults and children before and during under16 games....perhaps this was an oversight on your part, or it could be that you are so argumentative you refuse to see the facts...

My apologies - I thought you were referring to a (more recent?) incident loosely connected to the Milk Cup where some players from Cherry Orchard and another Dublin team were abused in their accommodation one evening by a group of local yobs from a nearby Council Estate. The Media, with typical lack of context, used the Milk Cup name to sensationalise the events when, in truth, the fact that it was a bunch of youth footballers was actually pretty irrelevant.

Anyhow, from your post, am I to take it that you consider verbal abuse of a sectarian nature etc, from some spectators at a youth tournament, to be greater excuse for not having anything to do with that countries football team than e.g. full-scale rioting (England) or "Welcome to Hell" etc (Turkey)?

If so, it seems to me you are being extremely discriminating (true sense of the word) in what it is which deters you, as against what it is you will tolerate, which was only my point from the very beginning.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what it is motivates that discrimination?

P.S. Do you happen to be a Leeds United fan, by any chance?

[geysir]

I hesitated before replying to this (when the intimidation of Lennon happened, I thought immediately that it would damage local football for years to come, and that still stands).

Hesitation, that's a sign of progress
There was an deep enough element of despair however it was a matter of time to realise that it was the morons who actually died their death then, not football.

I certainly don't downplay its effect then. But while I personally don't claim for one moment to have 'suffered', I think the flak was over the top. Contrary to what Lennon's father said, NI fans generally have not tried to sanitise- we accept where intimidation and prejudice existed and have tried to overcome it.

I would regard some of EG's account as delving into subtle forms of mild to medium sanitisation, not supported by the overall picture from Neil's own account and experience.
Neil's Da comments are an interesting perspective, but have to be naturally regarded as an unconditional subjective perspective.
Neil himself could differentiate between the football supporter and the morons who abused and threatened him.

If NI get through, I think in general people in the South would wish the team well. It was different in the past WCs, when personalities like Jennings, O'Neill and Whiteside were playing, most were already familiar with and respected them.

[Gather round]

Hesitation, that's a sign of progress

Don't start

I meant that I've reacted often enough to the Lennon affair (including on here), but still now largely as I did then. So little to add. I've read Lennon's autobiog which I thought better than most of its type. If anything, what impressed me was how self-critical he was, particularly about his illness.

If NI get through, I think in general people in the South would wish the team well. It was different in the past WCs, when personalities like Jennings, O'Neill and Whiteside were playing, most were already familiar with and respected them

Indeed, our individual players (like yours, and Wales's) may be less well known now that fewer of them play in the English Prem.

Roll on June and September...and of course July, when there's a decent chance the Crues will be heading your way to take on the mighty Fram or Keflavik

[Den Perry]

My apologies - I thought you were referring to a (more recent?) incident loosely connected to the Milk Cup where some players from Cherry Orchard and another Dublin team were abused in their accommodation one evening by a group of local yobs from a nearby Council Estate. The Media, with typical lack of context, used the Milk Cup name to sensationalise the events when, in truth, the fact that it was a bunch of youth footballers was actually pretty irrelevant.

Anyhow, from your post, am I to take it that you consider verbal abuse of a sectarian nature etc, from some spectators at a youth tournament, to be greater excuse for not having anything to do with that countries football team than e.g. full-scale rioting (England) or "Welcome to Hell" etc (Turkey)?

If so, it seems to me you are being extremely discriminating (true sense of the word) in what it is which deters you, as against what it is you will tolerate, which was only my point from the very beginning.

Perhaps you would like to tell me what it is motivates that discrimination?

P.S. Do you happen to be a Leeds United fan, by any chance?

Apology accepted...perhaps I am discriminating, but am I not entitled to have my views? I personally feel (and there is no way of proving this...just my instinct and a few examples) that the vast majority of NI fans would rather we do poorly in our matches. Thus, I would most definitely not support them(unless I had money on them...which would be highly unlikely)

Its nothing personal against you EG (in fact I find some of your posts quite interesting) just a football rivalry thing I suppose.

BTW, what is the purpose of your question re whether or not I'm a Leeds fan?

[Hibernian]

(mods, maybe this can be made a poll?)

I remember watching the 86 World Cup in Mexico - its one of my earliest soccer memories - and I was cheering for Northern Ireland. I really wanted them to do well.

In the event that the North qualified for SA10 and we didnt would the posters here adopt them as their team to cheer on for the tournament? I know there are a few run ins with the nordie foot.ie posters here and i dont agree with a lot of their opinions but i for one would love to see them do well.

Who else here would cheer for them or who would like to see them get thrashed?

I would like to see them well if I am being honest. Dont get me wrong I suppose in way if they say got final im not sure I be rooting for them as much but at same time I wish them all the best and would not like see them get trashed.

Remember my dad on about 82 and 86 and he told me he was shouting for North..In way was surprised to see so many Irish supporting them at time but in fairness Bingham did not give dam what religion you were once he felt you were good enough that was that..

The famous meeting in November 93 I suppose changed that in way...I was only 11 at time so kind still did not understand the situation until later years but I do remember my dad being annoyed at how the players espcially Mcgrath (and Phelan i think) got treated

At end of day I think we all need to move on. The Northern fans are good decent fans just want what all ROI fans want and that is qualify for major competitions and dare I say win them ..

There still a few that still put bad name on North which is shame but there only a handful and thats max. At end of day I have also seen couple Republic fans (actually there not fans there scumbags) who are no saints themselves..every country has them including our own but I am glad that the real ROI fans are ones who make our name as best supporters around remain at the very top.

[DeLorean]

At end of day I think we all need to move on.

It was well worth reading your long post for this sentence.

[EalingGreen]

Apology accepted...perhaps I am discriminating, but am I not entitled to have my views?

Of course you are entitled to your views - just as I must be entitled to express my disapproval when your views appear to be influenced by prejudice and ignorance, rather than by purely objective, footballing factors.

I personally feel (and there is no way of proving this...just my instinct and a few examples) that the vast majority of NI fans would rather we do poorly in our matches.

Not sure that it's the vast majority (though might be); anyhow, "I don't like them because they don't like us" is the basis of most footballing rivalries, and so long as that is not used as an excuse for excessive abuse of the other lot etc, it seems acceptable enough to me, I suppose.

Thus, I would most definitely not support them

Some revisionism going on here, I must say, for in an earlier post (#22), you explained your antipathy towards NI as follows:
"I supported them in '82 and '86, but after experiences at the Milk Cup and what went on in '93 I would support any other team (even Turkey) ahead of NI"
No sign of anything about "NI fans wanting to see ROI teams lose" there...

Its nothing personal against you EG (in fact I find some of your posts quite interesting) just a football rivalry thing I suppose.

Really? Care to explain this particular comment, then, also from post #22?
"I feel a little guilty towards Gather Round, because you seem a decent sort,but Ealing Green is another reason I would not support NI."
(On second thoughts, no explanation is necessary, since I'm just about managing to cope with the hurt )

BTW, what is the purpose of your question re whether or not I'm a Leeds fan?

Simple enough, really. You have explained your disinclination to give any support to NI due to instances* of bad behaviour by (some of) our fans. "I'd sooner support England or even Turkey before NI" was how you put it, I think.
Now considering the Lansdowne Riot by England fans, plus the thoroughly disgraceful behaviour by Turkish fans (including murder), I concluded that that your dislike of the NI team/fans actually stems from irrational prejudice.
Then I noted that you had travelled to Istanbul with Leeds, which caused me to wonder whether you weren't also a Leeds United fan.
For if you are/were, considering that club's long and continuing reputation for hooliganism etc amongst the support, then for you to cast aspersions on the NI support would make you a hypocrite of a pretty low order.


* - Btw, were you actually at the Milk Cup to witness the abuse you cite? Were you at the NI/ROI game at Windsor in 1993? Have you ever been at any NI international, whether in Belfast or overseas?

[The Midget Gem]

I hate Northern Ireland fans for their treatment of some of the Catholic players. Remember Neil Lennon and his abuse over his Celtic move. Utter scumbags. Always hated them after that, even the abuse Arthur Boruc got last month when he was playing for Poland in Windsor. Totally uncalled for, apart from the fact he plays for a catholic team.
The only time i was remotely happy to see them win was when they bet the English a couple of years back.

[Gather round]

So you always hated them, except when you were happy that they won? Make your mind up.

Boruc got stick because throughout his Celtic career he's been happy to play on his bogeyman image with Rangers fans. I mean, what did he expect facing a crowd including many of them?

As for the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering), how else do you react to an international keeper who basically throws two in his own net, is at fault for a third, and plays throughout like he'd never seen his back four before they met in the changing rooms to smoke crack? (Thanks to Maciej from Gdansk for that enduring image).

He's rubbish, you should move on.

[The Midget Gem]

So you always hated them, except when you were happy that they won? Make your mind up.

Boruc got stick because throughout his Celtic career he's been happy to play on his bogeyman image with Rangers fans. I mean, what did he expect facing a crowd including many of them?

As for the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering), how else do you react to an international keeper who basically throws two in his own net, is at fault for a third, and plays throughout like he'd never seen his back four before they met in the changing rooms to smoke crack? (Thanks to Maciej from Gdansk for that enduring image).

He's rubbish, you should move on.

Thats hilarious. I barely moved on to the subject and you tell me to move off it. I was just making my point i don't like NI fans/football team. Basically because of what they stand for on a whole. The Fact Boruc, Lennon, and im sure there are more, were abused(abuse like I've never seen before, near hatred) was just being used to get a point across.
I presume your a Rangers fan from your post as well, so there is no point in trying to pursuade you.
The fact i was remotely happy when ye beat England is because i actually hate the English football team and their constant blowing themselves up as a world cup winning team every 4 years, and i love to see them get put back in their place.

[Gather round]

Thats hilarious. I barely moved on to the subject and you tell me to move off it

You've little to add to it.

I was just making my point i don't like NI fans/football team. Basically because of what they stand for on a whole

They stand for playing for and supporting NI.

im sure there are more, were abused(abuse like I've never seen before, near hatred)

Boruc got called a wan*ker (because Rangers fans don't like him) and a clown (because he played like one). You can't seriously claim never to have heard similar at other games.

I presume your a Rangers fan from your post as well, so there is no point in trying to pursuade you

You presume wrongly- "the rest of us (who want nowt to do with the Old Firm and their bickering" should have been a clue. Did you not read nor understand it?

The fact i was remotely happy when ye beat England is because i actually hate the English football team and their constant blowing themselves up as a world cup winning team every 4 years, and i love to see them get put back in their place

Weren't you happy when we beat Spain then? Their media equally talks the team up as likely winners, albeit with more justification than England's.