One trick / on your bike Trap moanfest

[irishfan86]

Just watched the game there.

While Bulgaria enjoyed the better possession, we were better defensively and generated the better scoring opportunities.

We were better than them in the first and last third of the pitch, but they clearly won in the centre.

Ultimately, our midfield was impotent, and our attacking players missed a number of promising opportunities.

That said, with the way our defense is playing, I wouldn't rule out getting something off Italy.

[honeymonster]

I think its business as usual for many Irish fans(?) and pundits who love to jump on a managers back a soon as there is one slight slip.

When we strip it down to the bare bones, we are half way through the group with 11 points from 5 games, if we nick a point on Wednesday SA2010 is back on track. Think the Bulgarians failure to win a game yet indicates that they are likely to drop points against the likes of Montenegro, Georgia and possibly Cyrpus on Wednesday?

If you offered me 11 points from 5 games under Stan I would have bitten your limb off! Lets not stop believing just yet!

Wednesday night, 1-1, Kevin doyle! COYBIG!!

[SilkCut]

[quote=Jicked;1132271]

If you can't see an improvement over Staunton then give up watching football.

Spot on. I sometimes wonder what the hell is wrong with us as a nation, who do we think we are? Brazil? Wake up and see us for what we are, a team of journeymen with the odd top class player who are beginning to punch above their weight again. We are second in our group behind the world champions. Not even David Blaine could turn us into world beaters overnight.

[papa-j]

Does anybody actually remember San Marino away 1-2, cyprus away 5-2. The late equaliser in slovakia/slovenia who cares which one!! It was not that long ago. Wake up - its not pretty but we have a chance. Dont kid yourselves we are not a quality side. We are functional with functional players and we are doing better than we should expect. This is a league, we are nearly half way through and we are second. Cop on you gloryhunting, rose tinted glasswearing, sky sport loving, dunphy quoting...................

[tetsujin1979]

This whole thread (and any movement to get Trapattoni out of the manager's job) is pretty insulting. He's a massive improvement on a joke, and an uninspiring choice. Neither of the previous 2 managers would have gotten a better result against Bulgaria (Kerr never beat anyone higher than Albania. Staunton - please).
We're second. We're seven points clear of third. We're organised. We haven't lost.

Bolton play the most dire, inspid, insulting football known to creation. They qualified for Europe with Kevin Davies as their main striker.

Get over it.

[danonion]

Trappattoni might get us to the World Cup, but there is a very good chance that he will not.

I feel that Trapattoni has picked a system that really doesn't suit out players. The role of the two defensive midfielders under Trappatonni is a tactical error. No matter how unglamourous that role is, it is NOT one that can be carried out players of limited ability. That is the role of a confident, aggresive midfielder. A flatter midfield 4 suits our players better in several ways.

A flat midfield 4 is supported by industrious defensifly sound wide-men.

Compare:

Kilbane_Holland_Kinsella_G. Kelly

vs.

Hunt_______________McGeady
______Whelan__Andrews

I don't feel that Whelan and Andrews can support these two guys on the wing, when they have to provide the creativity.

Holland and Kinsella were certainly better players that what we have now, but McCarthy understood their limitations. That is why he selected KK and Gary Kelly on the wong. Kevin Kilbane had pace, an enormous work-rate and the attributes of a fb. Gary Kelly was a pacy fullback who knew how to stick the ball in the box. Both of them were capable of helping out the central midfielders when needed.

I also don't feel that the players he selected for the defensive mf role are even the best available. Andrews is an attacking midfielder in a lot of ways. He could be useful going forward - especially if widemen could cover defensivly. Whelan is just not a very sound player imo. Lee Carsley is better destroying stuff in the center. I reject statements like "he was part of an irish midfield that could not control games and now his legs are gone" because whether or not it can happen in football manager or fifa or whereever this notion that he can't cope because he's 35 has stemmed from, I believe that Lee improved as a player into his 30s. His last season with Everton was one of his best. His form with Birmingham is excellent. He merits a place in the squad.

Clinton Morrison would love to play and would be a good option off the bench.

To crystalize my point, Trap may get us there but if he doesn't he will have to shoulder heavy blame because he is ignoring options available to us.

No matter what does or does not happen under the hot South African sun in the summer of 2010, we can be reasonably assured Trap won't be our manager after the tournament. Surely McCarthy is in with a shout?

[irishfan86]

No matter what does or does not happen under the hot South African sun in the summer of 2010, we can be reasonably assured Trap won't be our manager after the tournament. Surely McCarthy is in with a shout?

If we qualify for the World Cup, I'd say Trap will be offered a new contract.

If he doesn't take it, I'd say Brady would be offered the job.

Would Mick even take the job if he was offered it?

[mypost]

When Italy defend resolutely, with all the genuises at their disposal, it's called art.

When we do it, it's because we're crap.

The bigger picture is in the table. In the last campaign, we had 10 points after 6 games with 8 goals conceded. This time, we have 11 points from 5 games with 3 goals conceded and are unbeaten.

If people can't see the progress in that, then they can't be helped.

[Deckydee]

Cestlavie, you are absolutely correct it is healthy to have a debate. However when you start a thread titled "On your bike Trap and Co." immediately after just one bad result (even though at the start of qualifying we probably would have taken it) you should really expect to get hammered. This knee jerk reaction suggests you know very little about football. For example, it seems obvious you don't recall watching the dross served up by Jack Charlton's teams which we all loved and followed passionately because it was successful. Do you remember the game v's Egypt in 1990? Worst game of football ever played anywhere on this planet at any time in history!!! It felt like the end of the world but we still went on and made the 1/4 finals. Trap is by far and away the most experianced and qualified manager we have ever had, to be looking to sack him know is quite simply ridiculous. We are in 2nd spot in a group containing the world champions, did we ever expect to finish top?? We are in a very healthy position so relax, stop worrying about Reid and Ireland and get behind our team. That way when we qualify (Via the playoffs) you will not feel guilty about cheering them on in SA.

I agree with 'Silkcut' AND 'Cestlavie' here. I agree with 'Silkcut' when he says that we have a top class manager and he is doing he best with the squad that we have, but I also have to agree with 'Cestlavie' when he/she says “Is there something wrong on this website that if you start a debate you get lambasted for making a point”

Absolutely spot on there, I could not agree more. There are several people here who believe that because they have a lot of posts that they can dictate the run of a thread. I feel sorry for these people, maybe as opposed to building posts they could start building muscles? I believe that this site should encourage people to speak their mind, and everyone should be allowed to have and give their opinion. Remember that opinions are like *******s, everyones got one.
If you are an Irish supporter and you pay out a fortune every year to go see them play by using trains, busses, darts, petrol/diesel, on official shirts, training gear, flags and scarfs, not to mention driving half way across Belgium to find an Irish pub that gives priority to the Irish supporters as opposed to the English (good luck) I think that without a doubt you have an opinion!

I don’t agree with Mr 'Cestlavie' says but has every right to say it. Calling him a ‘moron’ for doing so is nothing short of internet bullying.

Now my opinion:

Beggars cannot be choosy. We simply don’t have the talent! Trap is doing the best he can with what we have. We are second only by two points against a team that are the world champions!! Its so much better than the last time so at least that is an improvement

P.S – If you want to see how bad things are for other countries look at Belgium for Gods sake! Two of the best players in the Premiership and look at the rubbish that they serve up for their ‘supporters’

It could be a lot worse people, a lot worse

[ainsie]

Trappattoni might get us to the World Cup, but there is a very good chance that he will not.

I feel that Trapattoni has picked a system that really doesn't suit out players. The role of the two defensive midfielders under Trappatonni is a tactical error. No matter how unglamourous that role is, it is NOT one that can be carried out players of limited ability. That is the role of a confident, aggresive midfielder. A flatter midfield 4 suits our players better in several ways.

A flat midfield 4 is supported by industrious defensifly sound wide-men.

Compare:

Kilbane_Holland_Kinsella_G. Kelly

vs.

Hunt_______________McGeady
______Whelan__Andrews

I don't feel that Whelan and Andrews can support these two guys on the wing, when they have to provide the creativity.

Holland and Kinsella were certainly better players that what we have now, but McCarthy understood their limitations. That is why he selected KK and Gary Kelly on the wong. Kevin Kilbane had pace, an enormous work-rate and the attributes of a fb. Gary Kelly was a pacy fullback who knew how to stick the ball in the box. Both of them were capable of helping out the central midfielders when needed.

I also don't feel that the players he selected for the defensive mf role are even the best available. Andrews is an attacking midfielder in a lot of ways. He could be useful going forward - especially if widemen could cover defensivly. Whelan is just not a very sound player imo. Lee Carsley is better destroying stuff in the center. I reject statements like "he was part of an irish midfield that could not control games and now his legs are gone" because whether or not it can happen in football manager or fifa or whereever this notion that he can't cope because he's 35 has stemmed from, I believe that Lee improved as a player into his 30s. His last season with Everton was one of his best. His form with Birmingham is excellent. He merits a place in the squad.

Clinton Morrison would love to play and would be a good option off the bench.

To crystalize my point, Trap may get us there but if he doesn't he will have to shoulder heavy blame because he is ignoring options available to us.

No matter what does or does not happen under the hot South African sun in the summer of 2010, we can be reasonably assured Trap won't be our manager after the tournament. Surely McCarthy is in with a shout?

Thankyou for a reply on what the OP was about , Trap as a 1 trick pony (or so it appears) Its meant to be a discussion on what maybe could be done or what options are open to him not a get out trap thread.

Go to the other thread to discuss Trap out.

To the people name calling , go to the other thread and call names

[the doc]

I agree with 'Silkcut' AND 'Cestlavie' here. I agree with 'Silkcut' when he says that we have a top class manager and he is doing he best with the squad that we have, but I also have to agree with 'Cestlavie' when he/she says “Is there something wrong on this website that if you start a debate you get lambasted for making a point”

Absolutely spot on there, I could not agree more. There are several people here who believe that because they have a lot of posts that they can dictate the run of a thread. I feel sorry for these people, maybe as opposed to building posts they could start building muscles? I believe that this site should encourage people to speak their mind, and everyone should be allowed to have and give their opinion. Remember that opinions are like *******s, everyones got one.
If you are an Irish supporter and you pay out a fortune every year to go see them play by using trains, busses, darts, petrol/diesel, on official shirts, training gear, flags and scarfs, not to mention driving half way across Belgium to find an Irish pub that gives priority to the Irish supporters as opposed to the English (good luck) I think that without a doubt you have an opinion!

I don’t agree with Mr 'Cestlavie' says but has every right to say it. Calling him a ‘moron’ for doing so is nothing short of internet bullying.

Now my opinion:

Beggars cannot be choosy. We simply don’t have the talent! Trap is doing the best he can with what we have. We are second only by two points against a team that are the world champions!! Its so much better than the last time so at least that is an improvement

P.S – If you want to see how bad things are for other countries look at Belgium for Gods sake! Two of the best players in the Premiership and look at the rubbish that they serve up for their ‘supporters’

It could be a lot worse people, a lot worse

Wrong he was a good manager, but he is only here for one last big pay day!

The only reason he has been see at grounds recently was to head off any criticsm for not getting out and seeing players doing well,when he had no intention of picking them.

How he can still pick the likes of McShane and Bruce is beyond reasoning!

[mypost]

Wrong he was a good manager, but he is only here for one last big pay day!

As was Jack Charlton.

2 years ago, we were crying and bawling over why we're not in contention for qualifying.

2 years later, we're still crying and bawling, when we have a serious chance of qualifying, and climbing the world rankings.

You'd swear we were Brazil.

[gaiscíoch]

After watching that game a few things are now obvious to.
Firstly the "Irish Supporters" People leaving for half time with 10mins left in the half and then 15mins before full time.
It's a disgrace. Why do people bother going if they have no interest?
A few clowns booing Mc Geady?

We are in the best position we have been in for years and we still aren't happy.
Granted it was a terrible performance! but woeful defending by Kevin Kilbane we would still be top of the group.

Which would we prefer to be playing beautiful football and getting beaten or keeping it tight and waiting for the breaks?

One thing we need to do is keep possession better. We gave away too much ground unfortuneatly we didn't seem technically able to hold onto the ball?

We are missing (I think anyway) 5 players who would should be starting for us.
2 Full backs
Left Midfielder and 2 central midfielders.

Roll on Wednesday lets hope we can get something from the game.

[Stuttgart88]

Which would we prefer to be playing beautiful football and getting beaten or keeping it tight and waiting for the breaks?

I agree to an extent but I'd also query whether the question is that straightforward and whether there's a third way - play constructive proper football and take teams on at home? Bulgaria were there for the taking and we wasted 74 minutes of the game in this regard.

Just like billsthought's (where is he?) Spanish mate at the Brazil game who said "that isn't even football, it's hoofing" that's all we did on Saturday. It just wasn't football and I think there's a middle ground between Trap's pragmatism and foolhardy attacking football. Razor rightly said that the easiest way to defend is to keep the ball. If you were to look for a positive it's that without the ball we are well set up. It's just a shame this is for 70% of the match.

Anyway, here's hoping it was a particularly bad day at the office rather than anything more fundamental (my glass is back to being half full again).

[OwlsFan]

My point is he is a stubborn ould lad that has one way of playing and only one way to coach. I believe that the coach sets the mentality of the team and this team started the game trying not to lose.

This is the first post in the thread and I just wonder where this negative tactics thing about Trap comes from? I don't see any negative tactics in playing 2 forwards and 2 wingers. If you want negative tactics, he would be playing 5 in midfield and just one up front.

The problem is we don't have players who can keep the ball, especially the 2 full backs who gave the ball away on numerous occasions. I have little doubt they are being played for their physicality in what is otherwise a small team.

Before people mention Andy Reid, he is not getting his game in a struggling Sunderland team and if he were to play, I think we would have to revert to 5 in midfield but who do you then drop, Doyle or Keane ?

Trap plays an attacking formation. Trouble is the team is full of mediocrity and he is trying to paper over the cracks. A new manager would also have to do the same.

Be loyal. Don't abandon the ship at the first sight of an iceberg!

[carloz]

My only complaint against Trap is he complete unwillingness to use subs when it is painfully obvious that they are needed in a game. I refuse to critisize his tactics too much, they are the tactics he has used to great effect for 30 years. People fail to realise that we have a central midfield with under 10 caps between them, and a central defensive partnership that are in their first campaign together. These things take time.

[Stuttgart88]

Trap plays an attacking formation.

True but there are other attacking formations. When he was appointed I was excited by the prospect of at least a subtle difference to the age old 4-4-2. What we've got is as rigid a 4-4-2 as we've ever had.

Our biggest problenm in a weird way is that our best attacking midfielders are wide players and, as you allude to, Duff, Keane and Doyle are undroppable - McGeady less so in my opinion but I see the point in playing him as he can clearly do damage. If each is fit then fine, but Duff was out and McGeady wasn't really at it.

What I'd like to see is a narrower midfield, mobile & confident full backs who can at least develop play and at best (if required) provide the width. Did anyone notice the positions the Bulgarian full backs took up in the second half? Even without the ball they were stationed 40 yards from our goal.

The above would still allow 3 from the abovementioned attacking players to make a fuss upfront - in any number of ways. Ther'es less pressure on a midfield two and there's a smaller gap between midfield and defence. Andy Reid would be ideal to patrol this gap.

Shape is only on paper anyway I suppose. I just wish the players themselves were better and smarter in possession.

[jmurphyc]

Saturday's game wasn't great and I don't particularly like the football that is being played. I don't have a problem with having a defensive set up, but I do think we need to have far more possession of the bal. No matter how well set up a team is defensively, inviting that much pressure onto us will inevitably lead to mistakes and potentially a goal. I also don't agree with all of Trap's decisions in terms of players to use. Andy Reid is the main gripe with me as I do think his inclusion would give us a better chance in games.

However, Trap is still relatively new to the job and so far we've been getting results. I dread to think of where we'd be with Staunton in charge right now. We're a LOT better now and we are still in the driving seat for a play off berth. I also really think we're missing Steven Reid right now. I think his presence was fundamental to the way that Trap intended us to play and sadly there's nobody out there who is anywhere remotely as good in his role.

The criticism is far too soon IMO. There's no harm in constructive criticism, but to say that he should leave after little more than a year in the job and only halfway through the qualification campaign is ridiculous. It's that kind of knee jerk reaction that put us in the position that we're currently in.

[the doc]

Trapp has just been on Sky Sports News defending his decision not to change his team or squad.

He cites Chelsea and Man Utd saying they keep settled squads, well Trapp they also get rid of any player not up to the required standard, unlike you!

This bloke has lost the plot!

[OwlsFan]

My only complaint against Trap is he complete unwillingness to use subs when it is painfully obvious that they are needed in a game. I refuse to critisize his tactics too much, they are the tactics he has used to great effect for 30 years. People fail to realise that we have a central midfield with under 10 caps between them, and a central defensive partnership that are in their first campaign together. These things take time.

But what subs can he bring off the bench? He only brough Keogh on because McGeady had shipped a knock. Hunt for Duff was the only change he likes to make but since Hunt started, not too many other match changing subs he could make.