Eligibility Rules, Okay

Don't what your day job is, but you should working for The FAI...

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

All these wannabe Rossies....
;)

The only prominent one I know is a former Roscommon football star now a publican in Tottenham, N.London and a massive Man.U. fan to boot.
:eek:

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I did a good interview with him for a programme last year, he does love both forms of football alright - and was a handy player too at both.

DI i take it you're from Derry, there is another well known poster on here who has a mother from North Roscommon also from Derry, he also posts quite long detailed posts. I reckon there must be a connection somewhere.

Please explain what this over the years of 18 thing means, ive not heard that one before, surely if you acquired nationality through residency after 5 years living there that is enough? Or is it a case of stopping lads "country hopping"?!

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

Sorry to have to go back on-topic here, but... :p

(And it's nothing to do with northern players either. *Awaits a collective sigh of relief.*)

I meant to enquire about this a while back when I first came across a guy playing for Portsmouth's academy called Chinedu Vine. I'd happened to do a player search on Football Manager 2011 for players of Irish nationality and this youngster of Nigerian birth showed up. Quite a handy resource, it is, although not completely infallible. There's no mention of the likes of Richard Stearman or Kyle Naughton being eligible even though it appears they are in real life.

Anyway, dragging myself away from Football Manager, I did a bit of research on the lad to get his story. Vine's parents moved to Ireland when he was a toddler. He went on to play for Home Farm at under-15 level before Portsmouth, who have a partnership with Home Farm, snapped him last year.

There's not much on him online really but there's a bit about the Portsmouth academy here where he features briefly in a few clips posing for club scholarship photos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJrz8inD6MM

He was eligible to play for Ireland according to the game but would he be eligible to play for us in real life given that his citizenship - he holds an Irish passport, according to reports - would have been dependent on residence, all his roots are Nigerian and he hasn't lived in Ireland for five years after reaching the age of 18 given that he only turned 17 last Thursday, as it would happen? I'm guessing he wouldn't be.

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It depends on whether he or (more specifically) his parents have citizenship. If they've been here for 10+ years, my guess is that they do so he should be eligible. Nedum Onuoha is in a similar situation with England.

his nationality is listed as Irish on wikipedia (I know, I know): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portsmo...es_and_Academy
Anyone know anything about the other two listed players - Carl Walshe and Matthew Gledhill?

Walshe is also from Home Farm - I remember reading a few articles when they first went over as it was the start of a relationship with the English club a la Home Farm Everton. Then things went kaput but apparently Home Farm are sticking with them.

Gledhill's previous listed club is Corinthians - a UCC-linked team it appears.

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Originally Posted by irishfan86

Better the Roscommonist takeover than a Northern one in these eligibility threads!

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It's northern. ;)

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Originally Posted by ArdeeBhoy

Don't what your day job is, but you should working for The FAI...

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Not sure whether to receive that as a compliment or an expression of bewilderment. ;)

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Originally Posted by paul_oshea

DI i take it you're from Derry, there is another well known poster on here who has a mother from North Roscommon also from Derry, he also posts quite long detailed posts. I reckon there must be a connection somewhere.

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From there or thereabouts. I'm actually Letterkenny-born to a Roscommon mother and a Tyrone father but grew up a few minutes outside of Derry and also attended St. Columb's College in the city, so whatever that makes me. Derry seems a convenient description when asked where I'm from as that's where I tend to be most of the time when I'm home. While I'm at it, I'm not a qualified lawyer either, as has been suspected, nor do I work for the FAI, ha. (If they had a job going though...) I did study law for a few years in Dublin but decided not to pursue it as a career path, if you will, although I think my interest in the statutes really stems from an interest in the interpretation of language, word-play and other literary techniques and devices, obviously mixed with an uncompromising view that northern-born Irish nationals who seek to represent Ireland internationally be acknowledged as just as Irish as those born south of the border, of course. ;) At present, I'm living in Manchester trying to do something totally different in the world of visual arts. So, a brief bio there for anyone who could care less.

I'm not sure who you're referring to though. I know my brother has an account on here and reads through the various sub-forums fairly regularly, but he posts rarely enough, as far as I know anyway. Who's this other fellow you speak of? Maybe a long-lost cousin or something my mother didn't tell us about...

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Please explain what this over the years of 18 thing means, ive not heard that one before, surely if you acquired nationality through residency after 5 years living there that is enough? Or is it a case of stopping lads "country hopping"?!

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Here are the FIFA statutes I think particularly relevant:

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15) Principle
1. Any person holding a permanent nationality that is not dependent on residence in a certain country is eligible to play for the representative teams of the Association of that country.

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17) Acquisition of a new nationality
Any Player who refers to art. 15 par. 1 to assume a new nationality and who has not played international football in accordance with art. 15 par. 2 shall be eligible to play for the new representative team only if he fulfi ls one of the following conditions:
(a) He was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(b) His biological mother or biological father was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(c) His grandmother or grandfather was born on the territory of the relevant Association;
(d) He has lived continuously for at least five years after reaching the age of 18 on the territory of the relevant Association.

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Originally Posted by Charlie Darwin

It depends on whether he or (more specifically) his parents have citizenship. If they've been here for 10+ years, my guess is that they do so he should be eligible. Nedum Onuoha is in a similar situation with England.

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Vine has an Irish passport, according to the material I've found on him online anyway, so, yes, he appears to be an Irish citizen alright. He was born in Nigeria, just as his parents were, and moved to Ireland with them, so I'm assuming they were granted citizenship at the same time as he was. I don't know what age he was when he arrived here, but anything I've read says he was a toddler, so presumably it was before the ago of two or three. Having left for Portsmouth at the age of 15/16, he seems to indeed have been resident in Ireland for ten years. Under which rule would he be eligible to play for us though, given that his citizenship was clearly dependent on residency? Similarly, I understand that Onouha has represented England at under-21 level but have absolutely no idea how he might qualify for them either.

In response to the revelation that Shane Ferguson has indeed been in contact with an FAI representative, a poster on a certain forum reckons that they [the IFA, fans etc.] need a new approach. I know that these guys feel strongly about the issue, but some of the things they come out with are utterly risible.

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Originally Posted by OWC's Doc Top

The way we approach this issue has to change. The decision is made, players from NI can represent the ROI, there is nothing we can do about this. This has to become, on one level, a moral issue about players, in effect, stealing caps from those that want them. It needs to be stressed again and again that these people DID choose to play for Northern Ireland at any number of levels, no-one forced them, they showed up of their own freewill and did so knowing what anthem was going to be played and what flag flown.

In addition, the IFA has to take some action. I sometimes get the impression that there are those in the IFA who view the NI team as an inconvenience and are simply waiting for the day that we are forced into an all-island team.

Of course, FFA must continue and the IFA must continue to pick players solely on merit, but all call-ups for all levels must include a note that accepting the call-up means that they are explicitly committing themselves to NI. Anyone not willing to make this public and signed commitment should not be picked until they are prepared to do so. If someone wants to bide their time, that is their perogative, but it should also be made clear that any acceptance of a call-up from any other international association from- and this is crucial- a NI born player will, regardless of FIFA rules, mean that they will not be selected for NI at any level again. We are not obliged to pick people who qualify for us, were born in NI and think that they can chop and change their allegience. If we lose a couple of players this way, so be it, there is more at stake. Anyone who switches should be required to return their caps and shirts. Perhaps we should appeal to players' self-interest and draw up a database of current and former ROI players in the top two flights of English football (the top division in Scotland). There will be lots of them, but most will have won only a handful of caps, yet still play at a high level (Paddy Kenny and Rory Delap, spring to mind, and would certainly still be playing for us).

We also, unfortunately, need a public statement from the FAI that they will not select anyone who has played for NI at u19, u21 or full international level, regardless of their technical eligibility for the ROI. The IFA should publicly demand a meeting with the FAI on this issue, and in the name of continued cross-border co-operation, ask for this. If it is not forthcoming, then the IFA has to ask very loudly "Why not?" after all, it would not be conceding the principle that NI born players can play for the ROI team, merely that the FAI do not select those that have already freely and willingly represented us. At this point, all ties should be broken and the FAI treated just like any other foreign association. The IFA can take the moral high-ground on this issue if it chooses, and, again, it should be stressed that these players were happy enough to represent NI at various youth levels, but if the FAI (and it is a big "IF") has any sense of decency it should sign up to this. (Perhaps it should be pointed out to them that if the next Robbie Keane signs apprenticeship forms with an English club and lives there for a couple of years he is eligible for England. Anyway, I digress.)

While the FAI's approach may not be deliberately sectarian (although, regardless of intention, the reality is that it is, and particularly provocative a matter of weeks ahead of a meeting between the two teams) or deliberately designed to destroy the NI team, it is becoming increasingly difficult to see that if this is not at least the subtext to their efforts, it also has an impact in NI beyond football as it further divides a society still riven by sectarianism.

We will, however, survive, but whether we can survive as we have always existed as a cross-community team which is entirely representative of the people of Northern Ireland remains to be seen.

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maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the point of a database of Republic players from the top divisions?

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Originally Posted by tetsujin1979

maybe I'm missing something here, but what is the point of a database of Republic players from the top divisions?

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Is he saying that if prospective NI internationals look at the number of players who are eligible for ROI(and only managed a couple of caps), they will realise that they will have a better chance of an international career with NI?

Who knows, you might get the IFA to sponsor your database.....:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by OWC's Doc Top1481245

While the FAI's approach may not be deliberately sectarian (although, regardless of intention, the reality is that it is, and particularly provocative a matter of weeks ahead of a meeting between the two teams) or deliberately designed to destroy the NI team, it is becoming increasingly difficult to see that if this is not at least the subtext to their efforts, it also has an impact in NI beyond football as it further divides a society still riven by sectarianism.

We will, however, survive, but whether we can survive as we have always existed as a cross-community team which is entirely representative of the people of Northern Ireland remains to be seen.

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Out of all the misinformation, nonsense and downright pig-headed ignorance peddled around this issue, the idea of the FAI destroying the all-inclusive Norn Iron dream with their evil sectarian selection policy is by a country mile the most infuriating. It's also the kind of attitude which is far more damaging to an all-inclusive NI team than anything the FAI could do.

Fair point, but it's all down to the 'P' word.
And I am of course, not making any wider cultural reference.

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Originally Posted by OWC's Doc Top

All call-ups for all levels must include a note that accepting the call-up means that they are explicitly committing themselves to France. Anyone not willing to make this public and signed commitment should not be picked until they are prepared to do so. If someone wants to bide their time, that is their perogative, but it should also be made clear that any acceptance of a call-up from any other international association from- and this is crucial- a France born player will, regardless of FIFA rules, mean that they will not be selected for France at any level again.

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Somehow I don't think it'd go down to well.

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Originally Posted by Predator

In response to the revelation that Shane Ferguson has indeed been in contact with an FAI representative, a poster on a certain forum reckons that they [the IFA, fans etc.] need a new approach. I know that these guys feel strongly about the issue, but some of the things they come out with are utterly risible.

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Self-awareness sorely lacking, clearly. I mean, surely the bright spark who devised this detailed and cunning ploy realises that it almost reads like an elaborate kidnap plot.

Generally, I don't really take much issue with the first three paragraphs as the IFA can be as internally hypocritical as they wish for all I care. Bar these bits:

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It needs to be stressed again and again that these people DID choose to play for Northern Ireland at any number of levels, no-one forced them, they showed up of their own freewill and did so knowing what anthem was going to be played and what flag flown.

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They're also free to choose to play Ireland. No-one's forcing, kidnapping or poaching them. Certainly not the FAI. If anyone has tried to force anything, it was the IFA in trying to limit the choice of these individuals by dragging Daniel Kearns off to CAS. There are a number of reasons as to why a nationalist player might end up playing under the Ulster Banner. It doesn't necessarily have to be seen as contradictory nor does it strike a blow to the notion that they still identify as Irish and would rather play with Ireland first and foremost. For example, I recall Shane Duffy's father stating on the UTV news around the time of Duffy's switch something to the effect that, being from Derry, naturally, Duffy had grown up within the northern footballing system where things snow-balled as figures in authority began to fast-track him through the ranks from an early age, guilting him over potentially letting his team-mates down any time he expressed his desire to play for Ireland. His dream was always still to play for Ireland, even when he was standing awkwardly with head down to 'God Save the Queen' before NI games, would you believe? Obviously, for some others, self-interest will precede national allegiance, but that's their own business.

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In addition, the IFA has to take some action. I sometimes get the impression that there are those in the IFA who view the NI team as an inconvenience and are simply waiting for the day that we are forced into an all-island team.

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Everyone's up against them. Even themselves. :rolleyes:

That loyalty scheme is a nice idea, mind. It's a business model that works for Tesco and Sainsbury's, isn't it? In seriousness though, it's debatable as to whether such would do them a huge deal of good. Might worsen things, if anything, as it all comes across as a bit stringent and draconian. Anyhow, if they do manage to successfully convince young nationalists that playing for NI is in their best interests, then I'm not going to object to a lad's decision, whatever his reasons may happen to be.

Paragraph four is where things really lapse into farce though.

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We also, unfortunately, need a public statement from the FAI that they will not select anyone who has played for NI at u19, u21 or full international level, regardless of their technical eligibility for the ROI.

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And he demands this in the name of continued cross-border co-operation? This guy has quite a sense of humour. Things had been very co-operative, fine and dandy until the IFA took it upon themselves to breach that concord with their CAS appeal. This post of co. down green's from last year is also enlightening. Out of interest, I wonder what the FAI would get in return for shutting out legitimate and eligible volunteers? Decency points? As co. down green also pointed out recently, nationalist taxpayer's money funds the IFA as well.

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Perhaps it should be pointed out to them that if the next Robbie Keane signs apprenticeship forms with an English club and lives there for a couple of years he is eligible for England.

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:confused: A member of OWC suggesting that the FAI mightn't be up to speed with the eligibility rules? Funny.

Anyhow, the chances of such a scenario occurring would be remote given we'd most likely already have capped such a talent, if even Robbie Keane II would wish to line out for England in the first place. If this hypothetical player did wish to hold out for England, it would be a peculiar case indeed and might elicit disappointment, but he'd be entirely within his rights to do so.

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While the FAI's approach may not be deliberately sectarian (although, regardless of intention, the reality is that it is, and particularly provocative a matter of weeks ahead of a meeting between the two teams) or deliberately designed to destroy the NI team, it is becoming increasingly difficult to see that if this is not at least the subtext to their efforts, it also has an impact in NI beyond football as it further divides a society still riven by sectarianism.

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Well, it's neither deliberately sectarian nor sectarian in effect in that the FAI are simply accommodating the wish of northern-born players good enough to play for Ireland to realise their ambition. For all the FAI cares, they might as well be Catholic, Protestant or even dissenter. If players from a unionist background wished to embrace the spirit of cross-border co-operation and all that, sure why not they just be done with it and declare for Ireland too? :rolleyes: Nothing the FAI is doing is particularly provocative because of timing either. It shouldn't be seen in a provocative light besides, but the FAI have been calling northern-born Irish nationals into our various teams for a decade and a half. Ferguson is just another in a long line of northern-born Irish nationals. And the FAI aren't to blame for social division. If some people happen to be part of a society but are lukewarm to the notion of partaking in that society's cultural escapades, that's not the fault of the FAI. Telling an Irishman he ought to be denied the right to play for his country and have his choice limited to lining out for a team that is essentially a British entity is what's divisive, provocative and vindictive.

I just had a look through that hysterical thread on OWC and this gem really stood out as a particular highlight:

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Wait until Shay Given (Derry born (ok just adding because I need a keeper in my side :D)), Shane Ferguson (Derry born), Marc Wilson (Aghagallon born), Paul George (Co. Down born), Darron Gibson (Derry born), Daniel Kearns (Belfast born), Adam Barton (Blackburn born :rolleyes:) are all playing against Northern Ireland next month. OK the chances of Kearns playing are slim but the FAI selecting him just to 'rub it in' to the North is quite high!

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I'd be hard-pressed to know where to start on that.

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Originally Posted by DannyInvincible

That loyalty scheme is a nice idea, mind. It's a business model that works for Tesco and Sainsbury's, isn't it? In seriousness though, it's debatable as to whether such would do them a huge deal of good. Might worsen things, if anything, as it all comes across as a bit stringent and draconian.

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I don't know Danny, that loyalty scheme is not such a stretch, is it?

http://www.ulsterrugby.com/images/news/LoyaltyCard.JPG

Trying to get a bit more info on Chinedu Vine, I happened to stumble across this somewhat different video, for want of a better description, on the lad:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wklbO...&feature=share

It's a fairly amateur production but it features some camcorder footage of him playing and showcasing his various medals and things to an odd mix of epic-cinematic, fervently upbeat and particularly solemn music with dubbed commentary from John Champion, Andy Townsend and Jim Beglin in the background. He also speaks very briefly about experiences of his that have been documented in the local media between the action footage and, of obvious and vital importance, appears aged about eight collecting an award at a kid's soccer school wearing what must have been an Ireland World Cup 2002 supporters T-shirt at 3:21. ;)

odd one this (also not sure where to post it, so feel free to move/delete)
Northern Ireland's Daniel Devine made his first start for Preston on Saturday against Ipswich. He was most recently included in their U21 squad last February against Wales: http://www.irishfa.com/news/item/626...take-on-wales/
(side note Shane Ferguson was in the same squad)
But he was also included in an U19 Republic of Ireland training squad in 2010: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...r-19&Itemid=12
He didn't make the final squad for the U19 qualifiers in the Ukraine: http://www.fai.ie/index.php?option=c...r-19&Itemid=12
and as far as I can tell, hasn't represented the Republic at any level since then
Is there anymore information on this?

Good spot. It looks like he's 'ours'! :)

If I remember correctly, Devine played for NI at some level prior to announcing he wanted to declare for us; that being around the same time Daniel Kearns announced he wanted to switch (I think, although I'm open to correction and may have him confused with someone else).

Still, though, don't the IFA realise that repoaching players is twice as bad?!