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Originally Posted by
TheOneWhoKnocks
You gave the impression he would want to play for Ireland as his second choice.
Where did I give such an impression? Provide a quote, preferably.
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Lad, Redmond's mother said he has chosen England. The most densest person could read between the lines that he wants to play for England. You're obviously an intelligent person so IDK why you (pretend?) not to grasp that.
I know he wants to play for England. Playing for England is his priority right now. I've never disputed that. Are you under the impression I think Redmond presently wants to play for us or something? Redmond's mother did not rule out the possibility of the player playing for Ireland in the distant future though because she was commenting only on the present/immediate future, so it is completely inaccurate to suggest she "pooh-poohed" the notion of him ever playing for Ireland. It remains a future possibility regardless of her tweet and your misinterpretation/misrepresentation of it.
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Patrick Bamford is also quite open about England being his first choice. If Bamford's uncles had said Bamford was choosing Ireland, perhaps it would be relevant. It's a personal decision. People can talk about malevolent interference from national organizations, managers, friends and fathers, but it has no relevance with grown men.
I wouldn't describe all that as "malevolent". People are free to try and appeal to or influence others if they wish.
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You are being deliberately obtuse by bringing up that article. You know fully well that is not the article I was alluding to. I was referring to this article
http://www.the42.ie/cyrus-christie-r...74306-Nov2014/ where he says that he declared for Ireland because there was less competition in his position.
Eh? I specifically referred to the quote from that article; you had mentioned it in the post in the Christie thread to which I linked you back. Of it, I stated: "He said the fact we've not got an abundance of right-backs 'was the main thing', which would also leave open the possibility of other factors having played at least some part." Did you skim carelessly over what I wrote and then decide what you thought I meant? The reason I then brought up the other article was to provide some further information to complement what you had quoted.
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False dilemma? No, not interested. The reason all the players I mentioned aren't playing for Ireland right now isn't because of a "false dilemma".
I was pointing out the fallacy of your black-and-white thinking on this matter; not attempting to explain why certain players might or might not be playing for Ireland.
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I wouldn't read anything into himself describing himself as half Irish and half Jamaican in his ethnic make up, not least because he is an Englishman playing for his country. Ask any celebrity to describe their ethnic make up on Twitter and they will respond e.g. 1/5 Puerto Rican, 1/4 Irish, a 1/3 German.
Well, it shows he's at least aware of his heritage, doesn't it? So it must have some significance or meaning for him. Anyway, if you wish to attach absolutely zero value to his words for some reason, fine, but I was simply correcting you as you had said he neither felt Irish nor had ever referred to his Irish heritage, despite the fact Joe had posted a tweet by Redmond where he described himself as half Irish directly above your post. It seems Redmond volunteered that information unprompted as the tweet doesn't appear to be in reply to anyone.
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For god's sake Urijah Faber and Chad Mendes have described themselves as part Irish and they have spent the better part of the last year mocking Conor McGregor's heritage. So, presumably by your logic they are Irish too - or maybe you are being obtuse again.
I don't know the heritage of either, so I'm in no position to comment. How they identify is up to them. All I know is that Redmond was primarily raised by an Irish national single mother, has identified himself as half Irish, is eligible to play for us on account of his heritage and has indeed publicly spoken of this eligibility. If you wish to dismiss the notion that he might be part Irish or that he might have some sentiment for that aspect of his identity, you're free to do so, but it just seems a bit unnecessary, nor is it supported by the evidence.
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Eh yeah. Didn't I just say that Wayne Rooney plays for England, said he would never consider playing for Ireland and he is openly of Irish heritage? Or did you miss that?
You said Wayne Rooney considers himself "fully English". I don't know if this is true or not; maybe he does. Either way, he's not all that significant to the discussion considering we have better examples like Keown, McDermott and Gallen to demonstrate examples of players who played for England whilst undoubtedly feeling Irish. Redmond also explicitly described himself as "half Irish" and is presently playing for England, which directly contradicts this claim you made: "If he felt Irish, he would play for Ireland. It's as simple as that. He has never once passed comment about identifying as Irish or having any kind of decision to make about this." Redmond did speak of having a decision to make, by the way: "So I can still play for them, but I’m still viable to play for England seniors, and I qualify to play for the Republic of Ireland seniors, too. So when the time hopefully comes to play international football, I’ll have to decide."
Just admit you jumped to an incorrect conclusion and stop trying to wriggle out of it by fabricating things.
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All of those players chose to play for England so not sure how that's disproving my point, seems to be bolstering it if anything. You seem to think an English player like Luke Chambers or Richard Stearman declaring for Ireland is a sign of them acknowledging and paying tribute to their proud Irish roots, when it's dubious that's the case.
Of course it's not bolstering your point. It exposes its complete inaccuracy. Your point was that if Redmond felt Irish, he'd already have opted to play for Ireland. Those players all felt Irish but didn't opt to play for Ireland. Just because Redmond hasn't opted for Ireland doesn't mean he cannot feel Irish in some way (as well as English and even Jamaican). You're in no position to comment on how he feels or identifies.
Again, you put words in my mouth. All I would suggest is that declarations of the sort can very well be a means for a player to pay tribute to his Irish roots; Simon Cox was very happy to express pride in his Galway roots when he was selected. If you don't want to believe him, that's your call. Of course I can acknowledge there exist more mercenary types as well, like Jermaine Pennant, but I'm not just going to assume a "granny-ruler" is a complete mercenary whilst knowing nothing about his background and the full extent of his personal feelings on the matter.
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Originally Posted by
TheOneWhoKnocks
It's not a grey area at all where Nathan Redmond, Patrick Bamford, Mark Noble, Kyle Naughton, Callum Wilson and myriad others are concerned. They are completely ambivalent about playing for Ireland - at least until their hopes of playing for England fade - so I don't understand why they are given so much attention on an Irish football forum. If they declare for Ireland grand. Anyways, it's yer prerogative.
It clearly does bother you though, for some reason. If people want to discuss them, let them. It's of no detriment to you. You can just skip the thread.
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I don't think 3rd generation English players make much of a difference to our fortunes. Our best players are traditionally Irish born players and I don't think people give our talent pool enough credit. If ye think Joe Garner and Callum Wilson are the difference between us and success at a tournament - again yer prerogative.
Who ever said Joe Garner and Callum Wilson would make such a difference? Complete strawman. It obviously depends on the particular player(s) concerned; the likes of Bamford, Grealish and Redmond would undeniably offer us a lot more than Garner ever would. The likes of Andy Townsend and Mark Lawrenson were third-generation, weren't they? They offered quite a lot. Townsend even captained the team. It is possible to give credit to our own talent pool and to recognise that our best players have traditionally been born in Ireland whilst also acknowledging that "granny-rulers" can offer us some assistance too in providing more options and greater strength in depth. Once again, you present a false dilemma, but it doesn't have to be a case of one or the other. What's the harm in having strength in depth? Why is it a bad thing?
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Just because I think he shouldn't be a guaranteed starter, hold his record to closer scrutiny and hold him accountable the same way I'd hold any other Irish player accountable doesn't mean I "hate" him.
You hold his record to closer scrutiny than the rest of us? Please enlighten us as to how we should be better scrutinising what is an absolutely phenomenal goal-scoring record not merely within an Irish context but also within the global context. It's world class and is littered with a mix goals scored against small teams and goals in absolutely massive games. And you haven't held him to account fairly; you put words in his mouth in relation to the future retirement comments and continued to insist your interpretation was correct because "that's what he said" despite clarification from Liam Mackey, who was there, and from Robbie himself showing that the spin you were putting on the words was a complete misrepresentation. That just came across as rather unfair, if not emotionally or pig-headedly biased for some reason.