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What is the problem with keeping the lead in this Irish team? I know this was visited after the Italy game but its been a recurring problem since 2002. Trap seems baffled so what is going wrong with these EPL stars who surely are used to killing a game off with their clubs..
Would it help having a Defender or Goalkeeper as captain. This could be the key to beating the French!! I think we'll take the lead in Croker.. Can we keep it this time?
pure and simple for years now when we score we start defending deeper and deeper. for whatever reason we stop pressing.
But the reason we conceded the equalizer against Italy was because we kept pressing, when we should have just kept the ball by any means away from the Italians..Quote:
Originally Posted by Duggie
Unfortuantely I have horrible recurring nightmares relating to times that preceded 2002, it goes back further than that mores the pity.Quote:
Originally Posted by M@ttitude
lack of confidence, lack of guidance, lack of tactics/strategy / fear - all have played a part.
There's definitely a lack of composure and tactical savvy in seeing out games - which long pre-dates Trapp, as far back to at least the late 70's / early 80's.Quote:
Originally Posted by M@ttitude
The choice of pass and type of ball you play with a few minutes left on the clock can be crucial.
Retaining possession is key - if they don't have the ball they can't hurt you.
A few clever runs to the corner flag wouldn't go amiss with a minute to go either!!
This has to be the main topic of conversation in the Irish camp! The Italians thought us a lesson.. A goal means nothing against the top teams unless you can defend a lead. Crucial in the first playoff that we keep a clean sheet, or maybe just a 1-1.. I wont be celebrating ecstatically if we take the lead like I did against Italy! Ill save my celebrations for the final whistle, fingers crossed!
When we go 1-0 up we have to push for a 2nd. We've a terrible record of defending 1-0's so we cant do much worse imo. The cushion is all important at international level.
Do you not see the fallacy in your argument? It is pushing for a second that makes us terrible at defending one goal leads!Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeside Swagger
We just need to learn to counter attack....
Lack of confidence and a winning mentality. Being ahead is such an unfamiliar position for them that they don't know how to correctly deal with it so lose their nerve.
It's not though. With the exception of the 2nd Italy equaliser we've generally given away leads through sitting back and inviting teams onto us. When we do this our ball retention tends to be terrible and we get pushed back further and further till we crack.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Holding onto the ball in the right areas is the key and we're terrible at this.
Agreed, upto the Italian game we wouldve said every time we go ahead we naturally seem to sit back and as a result are under terrible pressure which usually results in the concession of a goal. The Bulgaria away game is an exception to this where we looked reasonably comfortable in the lead except for a poor defensive error left them in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
However, in the Italian game we went on the attack again immediately after going ahead, with the the result that the otherwise excellent JOSH was out of position and the Italians broke down that free side.
I think the key is if we go ahead early that we dont sit back like we did against Bulgaria at home, that we continue to play the game as if it were level. Whereas if we go ahead late on ie in the last quarter, as in the Italian game, I think at that stage its appropriate to adopt defensive/time wasting tactics and only have reasonable forays forward.
What games have you been watching? In almost every important game in recent times that we have taken the lead we've ended up retreating and retreating until the opposition is camped outside our area. Then we seem to almost inevitably concede a goal. We've shown that we can play attacking football against the top teams and score, we need to play to this strength and finish teams off.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
Regarding the second point, we dont have the players with the speed of thought or vision from midfield to play counter attacking football against the top teams.
I think we always sit back too deep and invite the opposition onto us. This is always going to lead to us conceding a goal as teams who are better at keeping the ball will eventually create chances and score/force a mistake. Our defence is clearly not good enough to soak up pressure from opposing teams. We may have an Italian manager but he can't make us defend like the Italians. We also have a team that contains senior players who have never seen out a match successfully against a top country. John O'Shea for instance has never played in a winning Irish team in a competitive match against a top nation, and he made his debut in 2002.
I don't think we can blame Trap for this failure to close out games. At least Trap keeps two men up front in every game, instead of reverting to the old Mick McCarthy tactic of five in midfield after 65-70 minutes. I never used to understand why McCarthy used to do that, all it succeeded in doing was drawing the opposition fullbacks onto us. McCarthy even used to do this when we were on top in games, like in Macedonia in 1999. Trap certainly cannot be blamed for Italy's 2nd goal against us, he must have been furious that we left ourselves 3 on 3 at the back in injury time. We just need to pray that we finally learn from our mistakes against France, or that we get a goal in the final minute in Paris to send us through. And to have any chance in the play-offs we must play Finnan at RB and O'Shea at LB, Killer is an accident waiting to happen
What worries me is that we tend to retreat when we have something to lose. Generally we don't do it when we're level. Only thing about being at home first in the play off is that Trap might consider 0-0 a good result and hope to snatch an away goal in the 2nd leg. I'm concerned that if he bangs on too much about how important it is to keep a clean sheet a home we might play as we normally do when we go ahead and sit back inviting them on.
They should always ignore the first goal scored, for or against.
I don't mean in every case it is what costs us but surely as a strategy pushing on when you are a goal up is frought with danger as it leaves you vulnerable and exposed. Now, our ability to hold a lead when that is blatently what we are trying to do is also poor but I think it can be improved upon and pushing for extra goals isn't really viable. Just look at the Italian goal. You could practically see them laughing as they crossed the half way line. Thet knew they were going to score because of our kamikaze approach.Quote:
Originally Posted by Leeside Swagger
For what it's worth, I think we only attacked when ahead against the Italians in this campaign and it was blurring my recollection of earlier games (like Cyprus, home and away, Bulgaria home etc etc) but I think we are capable of holding on to what we have without unnecessarily pushing forward. Now, if we had someone in central midfield able to hold onto possession etc etc (say, S Reid) we would certainly be in a better position.
I dont really see how it can be judged as viable or not since we havent tried it. The Italy game is a bad example, we just lost our heads for a split second and were punished. Obviously I'm not saying push on for another goal in the 89th minute if we are ahead by one, the ball should be put in to row z in that scenario.Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperDave
What I'm saying is if we go one up with a decent amount of time on the clock and are playing well why not push on for the 2nd?
Simple solution to keeping the lead;
1. Take St. Ledger out of the team.
2. Push one of the central midfielder ahead of the other to stop the opposition running through the middle.
3. Don't stop trying to score when we take the lead.
easy ......
I think this is a myth perpetrated particularly by Father Time, Johnny Giles. What happens when we take the lead is that the other side takes the game more to us (e.g. Italy). We don't sit back - we are pushed back and don't have the ability to keep the ball and thus have to defend for our lives. If we sit back, wtf were John O'Shea and others doing caught out of position when we should have been defending a 2-1 lead against Italy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
I fear that top teams, when they raise their games, can push us back and there isn't a whole lot we can do about it.
I would be reasonably happy with a 0-0 in Dublin. I feel we can score in France. Our home form for most of the games has been terrible. Trap's formation is better suited for away games. Of course I wouldn't complain if we win at home either but I would be surprised if we do.
I know individual errors can almost always be blamed on conceding goals. But ours are very bad. O'Shea up the pitch for Italy's second goal. Allowing a free header for Italy's first goal. Kilbane's mistake in Bulgaria to mention just three recent ones. You can't blame a system or way of playing on those mistakes. We can't afford to give away cheap goals. Especially against teams like France who might undo us with one or two moments of brilliance. Cut out the unforced errors and we can do it.
I was just about to say the same Noely. Dumb individual errors are what have cost us. Circumstances have been different: in Bulgaria we were caught by a long ball when we were playing well, at home to Bulgaria we allowed them to dominate possession, at home to Italy we made a dumb error, forgetting our shape and playing higher up the pitch.
As a general rule I'd say any top team will find it easy to put us under pressure territorially when they want to. Whether they can get through is down to how well we defend and how well midfield protects the defence.
The trouble is, much and all as I like Kilbane, he is nearing the end of his career and he is prone to "dumb errors". You can say to players "No dumb errors" but the mind says one thing and the body the other. There was no excuse for O'Shea being caught out though.
I really fear that even if we were 2 up with 5 minutes to go, our opponents could score 2. Because we can't keep the ball, we will always be under pressure and liable to give a goal away.
In addition, if the game is tight and we are pegged back and defending deep - no matter how well and desperately we defend - you just can't legislate for a moment of genius from the likes of Henry.
We tend to play Russian roulette by effectively handing over full possession of the ball to the opposition.
That said - it what it is at this stage, and will have to stick with it to the bitter end now.
How do you hand over half possession?
The russian roulette point is good though, as henry showed against us a few years ago, it was the only thing that put us apart. Our system doesn't cater or manage individual brilliance/moments of magic and hence giving away possession and inviting the oppossition upon us allows for more of these opportunities.
What system does?Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
We do need to keep the ball better in these circumstances, higher up the pitch as well - where any missed place pass (and there will be plenty knowing us) has less chance of leading to an opposition goal. Wide men need to win frees or throws in the oppositions half - Gives us the chance to regroup and keep shape and talk to each other! Keep it simple!
Easy there, pedantic Paul.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
My point re "effectively full possession" being that our system and style of play hands the opposition an inordinate amount of possession of the ball that other teams systems of play would not.
The game doesn't ebb and flow when we're up against it - it tends to feel like we're coralled into the alamo and are under attack from the Mongul Horde.
We're cautious, defensive and lack no creative spark in the middle of the park. That's not a criticsim per se - just reality.
My own view and we all have a view, is it's because of the limitations of the players we have.
The right back and right midfield area cost us a goal in Bari. The left back area has cost us a goal or two.
Systems can get you so far, but once the players cross the white line, systems and managers can do little to stop players making their own stupid mistakes from a rush of blood to the head. They can only learn from their mistakes.
Personally I think Brian Clough had the best method of helping players remember their mistakes, eg punching Keano in the face. I'd say Keano decided from that day on never to make the same mistake again.
I'm sure Trap feels like doing the same to some Irish players so they won't do it again.
I agree 100% with your post, you have summed it up Exactly how it is!!Quote:
Originally Posted by OwlsFan
100% ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mise Le Mas
Imo the issue is not about good teams pushing us back. It is about the version of the system which allows average to below average teams to push us back, even on our home ground. In fact, often we are not pushed back, we volunteer up the space.
Unless the strategy is, practice make perfect.
You pulled out half the sentence and maybe the word system wasn't correct, but the way we PLAY DURING a game(as oppossed to perhaps how trap sets us out to play i.e. the system), we dont hold onto the ball long enough therefore giving more time to the oppossition more often hence they get more time/chances to create a moment of brilliance things liking holding off for example give players like henry that little bit of time/space to create brilliance.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
I didnt think i needed to explain that exactly junior but thats what i was infering.
Okay - Sorry. I wasn't trying to be pedantic but Id say its obvious if you let the opposition have more of the ball there is a chance they will do something with it?
My point I suppose was that no system can really negate 'moments of brilliance' Henrys goal against us, Bergkamps against Leicester/Newcastle etc..
I think we are in agreement in that ball retention has to be better though!!!!
Ok, the word chance then, maybe im begining to realise that when i make a point i amn't descriptive enough. Having less of the ball, means these moments of brilliance, are more likely to occur as there is a CHANCE of more of them occuring, given the fact we have given them more ball/space.Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior
I agree on your earlier point about keeping them further up the field. These individual moments of brilliance can be negated by that, unless of course its 2 or 3 players involved in that moment of brilliance ;)
I agree with the poster who said it's not about us being pushed back, and the fact we were caught out for the second Italian goal by pushing forward when we actually should have tried to keep our shape in defence.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir
Certain players got over-excited and went up the field. It's a very natural intinct, especially for defenders, who rarely get credit but who want to get in on the scoring/attacking act.
If you examine the goals we conceded during the campaign, hardly any were conceded by us being 'pushed back' or 'sitting back'.
Against Italy in Bari, if our right back had sat back rather than ball watching and moving up the field, we might have stopped that goal, again a case of us being pulled out of shape.
In Dublin, the first goal conceded was a badly defended corner, again maybe if there was someone standing on the line and the rest along the 6 yard box it would have been cleared. The second Italian goal was conceded because we were attacking when we should have been sitting back.
Against Bulgaria away, from what I remember we conceded a goal from a long hoof of a ball over the top which no defender attacked, hardly a case of inviting the team on.
The Bulgarian goal in Dublin, yes it might be argued we sat back a little, it's hard to know. The fault there really was no-one following Petrov's run.
I can't remember the other goals we conceded, but we conceded few if any from sitting back or inviting teams on. It's a bogus accusation, like many accusations against the current Irish team and management.
That would be my take as well. Good team always pushed us back for periods in a match, no matter what system we used. The problem is that teams we're supposed to be better than also do it and that's a direct result of us not keeping the ball for any length of time. Montenegro and Cyprus both did it in Dublin, albeit without creating a huge amount of chances but it's playing with dynamite in my opinion. Cyprus had a great chance near the end and Montengro should have had a penalty. I don't think what Johnny Giles says is a myth at all, I think he's dead right and if anything I'd consider him guilty of stating the obvious.Quote:
Originally Posted by geysir