Scored a 94th minute winner too!
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Scored a 94th minute winner too!
I don't believe Whelan isn't getting his game....thats bad.
Jesus Whelan played last week and he played during the week, maybe Pulis did not feel he wanted him playing 3 games in a week when Delap has probably only played 1 or Lawrence who has played none. Story out of nothing. That is not to say that Delap should not be in the squad.
i always felt that Delap was never given a fair chance by the various irish managers... he fails to mark someone from a corner (cant remember the game) in a friendly, gets lambasted by the pundits and doesnt see an irish squad since.
I always liked the way he played.
Joey O'Brien had another solid game for Bolton playing in the holding midfield role. He's been playing there for a while now and that's where Megson sees his future. Still only 22. I'd have him way ahead of both Whelan and Delap.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
me too - i was just offering my opinion on Delaps irish career to date.
Sorry Ciaran if you think that O Shea and Kilbane are better in central midfield than Glenn Whelan you clearly know nothing about football.
Have you not seen Kilbane in central midfield for us giving the ball away and against Cyprus getting cut open time and time again. Miller was rubbish against Colombia and Whelan was average, Miller has been rubbish time and time again. W
Whelan has played twice for us. Most players say it takes up to 15 games to get to the level of international football and feel comfortable in the squad etc. You are way over the top on your assessment of Whelan. Judge him on what he does over five or 10 games not over 1 or 2 games when he was average but not poor.
not to mention the fact that Garvan cant get a start in a poor Championship team.
Liam Lawrance also started, and scored.
Honestly, that piece I have highlighted in bold is one of the most ignorant things I've seen on this forum. And here was me thinking that football is all about opinions?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
You can't write Kilbane off as a CM over his performance in one game. I think it's fair to say that everyone was off form against the Cypriots. I'd take Kilbane over Whelan as a CM - his engine is as good as Whelan's if not better - even at his age and his aerial ability is a great asset to any team he plays for.
If you want to judge Kilbane on one game why not pick his performance against the French in Paris in the World Cup Qualifiers? And he palyed that game in centre midfield.
But then maybe I know nothing about football either?:rolleyes:
Sorry just caused I mentioned one game does not mean it was just one game Kilbane is not a central midfield player. He did not grow up being a midfield he does not know about positioning, how to look around before you receive the ball, how to position your body so that you can receive and pass in the quickest time possible. Glen Whelan has grown up as a central midfield player and is only young and has played for Ireland 2 times.
Kilbane has played for Ireland many times in central midfield and the only time he had a good game was beside Roy Keane and he played the role as and advanced destroyer. Bascially that night Kilbane pushed on to the defensive midfielder for France and put pressure on him ever time he got the ball. This would only work when you have a world class midfielder behind you and against teams that like their holding midfielder to have the ball a lot and when you are satisifed with a draw. We do not have anyone like Keane at the moment so we cannot have Kilbane playing that role
Kilbane is a left sided wide player most suited to wing back and maybe as a full back now. I am not saying that Glenn Whelan is going to be a class act but I know for sure that he is a more natural central midfield player that Kilbane will ever be
Also if you think playing central midfield is all about engine and aerial ability well then I do not know which type of football you think Trap is going to play. If we were playing long ball football then maybe Kilbane could play chasing the knock downs or providing knock downs but from watching the match against Norway we seem to be going for a more classic type of central midfield player who can win it, receive it in good positions and give it simple and to and Irish shirt and develop the play when possible. Whelan did this to some degree and Reid did it exceptionally well. Kilbane does not have the ability to dictate a game in midfield or to keep possession for any sustained amount of time.
He is a great professional and always tries his best for Ireland but he belongs on the wing where you can see things in straight lines rather than have a map of the pitch in your mind and a picture of how the play is goign to develop just like Fabregas does or Scholes does or Giles did.
Not even going to bother pick the bones out of that post. You strike me as one of those fans who thinks they know everything but in fact just talk a lot of....
Maybe it's you who knows nothing about football after all?
Delap looks like has has been lifting weights. Looked super fit as did Lawerence and the entire Stoke team. I still think both have a bit to prove but heres hoping they have a great season and improve enough to be considered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
im a big kilbane fan - but i have to agree with you neil - he belongs on the wing or left back imo
Maybe it is me who knows nothing about football, however football is all about opinions but at least I am willing to offer my opinions and back them up with some sort of evidence.
Also I know for a fact that I do not know everything about football.
Yeah I wonder is Delap not worth calling up for a few reasonsQuote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
His Height and physical nature
His versatility
and his long throws.
yeah i agree, always like Delap aswell.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
good solid, versatile player to have in any squad
He is right with that postQuote:
Originally Posted by joema
One thing that needs to be pointed it out is that Delap has a McCarthy-esque throw, and we all know that one of McCarthy's throws lead to one of Ireland's more famous goals. Its not something that would alone get him in the squad (of course) but it is another thing he brings and it could be helpful if Doyle or Murphy is playing
Delap has always been a victim of his own versatility. I remember the clamour for him to be included after great goals for Derby against Chelsea and Arsenal in 1999. He started the two legs against Turkey in the EURO 2000 playoffs, and did nothing. That, and a general confusion about his best position, left him in the international wilderness. He played against the USA in a pre-2002 friendly, lost Eddie Pope for a simple headed goal, and though many people blamed that moment for his exclusion, anyone could see he hadn't the pace nor trickery to outfox an international full-back. However, with his best position regarded as right-midfield, and his competitors being McAteer, Steven Reid, Gary Kelly, Kennedy and Duff at the time, he wasn't considered.
His subsequent club form (relegated with Southampton) didn't help under Brian Kerr, and at such an advanced age, he's been forgotten about. As I say, his versatility has been a curse. Has he the passing ability, decisiveness, footballing intelligence, finesse or creativity to become a central midfielder in the Steven Reid mould? No. He has the physique, and a decent throw, and little else, and he's 32 now.
Glenn Whelan is 24, has a fixed position, has shown the fruits of development from underage Irish teams to the present, and an aptitude for the basics of the game, with room for improvement. Despite the biased Italiophile opinions of our Ciaran (i.e. if he's not immediately a more spectacular version of Gattuso or Pirlo, he's s**t), Whelan has more of a future in the game than Delap could have hoped for. Whelan is a new Matt Holland/Mark Kinsella type player, with simple consistencies and qualities which will continue to serve him in good stead throughout a long career. Delap has always been a bit of an enigma, as can be expected of one who has played striker, winger, full-back, central midfielder and central defender at club level, without excelling in any position.
This reminds me - in the same season that Delap came to prominence with those aforementioned goals, we had Barry Quinn, Alan Quinn, Stephen McPhail, Jason Gavin, Gary Doherty and Michael Reddy playing regular(ish) Premiership football! Richie Partridge and Graham Barrett were making their club debuts, after excelling for our all-conquering underage team... Dominic Foley scored in the Premiership too, for Watford at Elland Road... Our future was supposed to be built around them! What happened? :(
Yeah, pretty much what Supreme Feet and NeilMcD have said.
Delap was the original John O'Shea. Decent at a few positions, but never really excelling at any. He was called into an amount of squads under Mick, but never played, and the same with Kerr. I only recall him playing against the Czechs at home when a throw went straight in, and another got an assist to win the game. I think his time to impress has passed (along with the likes of Lee Trundle and Stephen McPhail) and it is up to the next generation of midfield players (Whelan, Garvan, McCarthy, Ireland, etc) to show Trapattoni what is missing from the starting XI to force their way into the team.
Not that I would ever exclude him from a squad, just that I think there are better players ahead of him in the queue to play for Ireland
NMcD's original post might have appeared a bit arrogant alright but I couldn't agree more with his detailed reply. Very well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by joema
Another reason he didn't get much of a chance was because there was at least 3 squads he was called up to but had to pull out because he was injured. Some of these were for friendly games where I assume he would have been given a chance to impress. During this time other players took their chance, Southampton got relegated and he was forgotten about in favour of players playing at a higher level or with more international experience.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
That was recipe for Stokes success last year. Most of the team is around the 6 foot mark and very athletic. The vast majority of their goals came from set-pieces last season.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
Thanks and in relation to the arrogance it has to be seen in the context of who I was replying to and that handles previous posts. OTT post have a knack of drawing OTT replies and Whelan is a young player that has only played a few times for us and Ciaran has written him off in various posts now with OTT remarks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Irish_Praha
Whelan was substituted in Stoke's first game when they were 3 down. I suspect that has more to do with the reason why Pullis didn't start him I am afraid :(Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
or maybe it was cause he would play 3 games in a week, who knows. I would not write his career off or anything like that, no big drama when a player does not play one game.
Just 1 question, how many times have you seen Glenn Whelan play that you are writing him off. Just so you know I am not saying that Whelan should be ahead of Andy Reid or Lee Carsley as a player playing in the centre of midfield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Ciaran, I agree with you to a certain extent on Whelan that he has limited ability and is far from world-class but as NMcD says he is a natural CMF player that makes himself available for the pass. IMO he does the simple things well and works hard. Yes he is not as good as Andy Reid or Carsley but he keeps posession much better than Kilbane and O'Shea, which is vital in CMF. You should also look at some of the goals he has scored for Sheffield Wed. and you will see that he also has a wicked strike from distance. He doesn't score in every game but neither does Delap :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
His positioning, passing and tackling are also decent. I myself would have Andy Reid in there ahead of him but he does a professional job and can offer decent cover. That's all I've seen from his first 2 games at international level, after another 5 or so games we will be able to get a better assesment of him as his weak/good points will be more apparent. However, he improved in his second game and if that was due to experience or playing alongside Reid instead of Miller we will see in the future. I would much rather have him there than a make-shift CMF player like O'Shea or Kilbane. Maybe he will be found out against better opposition and in competitive games but he is at least a good stop gap until one or two of the many young CMF players make a breakthrough. I have no doubth at least one of Garvan, McCarthy, O’Toole, McCann, Gibson etc. will turn out to be better player (fingers crossed).:p
The most important attribute in a footballer is intelligence and Whelan's positional sense, decision making, etc. is on a different level to Kilbane's. He's been playing the "holding role" at first team level since he was 20 which takes a fair bit of brains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Jack Charlton would certainly have put Delaps throw-ins to good use if he had been available in those days.Quote:
Originally Posted by theworm2345
With the number of subs allowed today he would be handy on the bench if we needed a goal late on in a game.If we also had a big man that was seriously good in the air(Caleb Folan perhaps) they would be a serious threat.I am not in favour of playing that way all of the time though.
O'Shea?? In midfield? I barely trust him in defence, and that's with Richard Dunne beside him ordering him what to do, I shudder to think what he'd be like in midfield and left to his own devicesQuote:
Originally Posted by Ciaran
Whelan is a good short passer of the ball, which seems to be the role Trap has defined for the second central midfielder, i.e. break up opposition attacks, regain possession, and pass the ball out to one of the more creative players. And Whelan does this very well, certainly better than any other player Trap has had a look at in the 4 months he's been in charge of the side. To say he's a presence in the team does him a great injustice IMO.
In fairness joema you're fighting a losing battle if your'e sticking up for Kilbane. He's a poor player and of all the positions he's played for Ireland - Left Wing, Left Back, Central Midfield and even as a makeshift centre forward he's arguably looked poorest in Central Midfield. He can't distribute the ball to save his life, surely one of the defining characteristics of a decent central midfield player. Neil could have picked a number of games where he's looked poor in Central Midfield for us (Cyprus, Israel, Switzerland) but you could only mention the French away game as an example of when he's played well in that position.Quote:
Originally Posted by joema
I'm no great fan of Glenn Whelan, he's a decent Championship player but will struggle in the Premiership and is certainly not a good enough central midfielder for International football but he's still better than Kilbane in that same position.
Kilbane is all heart, no ability.
The stick Kilbane receives from the Irish supporters is ridiculous, I'm not even going to bother post in this thread again
Kilbane got Ireland's player of the year as a central midfielder under Kerr. His off the ball work was excellent. He man marked Nedved in a friendly and didn't give him an inch. He just needs to be playing beside a really good all round player though and would only be needed against good opposition. In saying that, we've enough options that we don't need to play him.
Mate you are becoming just a little tiresome with this now. Whealan is no world class opponent but he has the right atitude, does the simple thing well, has good positioning, a decent eye for a pass and very importantly for this Irish team, he is physical and is not afraid to leave the boot in. Him and S Reid would add much needed steel to our midfield, which has been missing big time in the last 2 campaigns. Never was this more evident than against Cyprus both home and away in the last campaign where we were simply bullied out of it in midfield. Personally i love Andy Reid and would love to see him start against Georgia in central midfield but i can fully understand Traps reasoning for wanting to go with S. Reid and Whealan. Trap has been in the game long enough to know the importance f having a hard working coherent central midfield. I think i might just go with Traps opinion here instead of your's. I think you are being incredibly unfair on Whealan and you are really not giving the guy a chance. Remember international football is still new to him but he has looked quite assured in the games where he has been given a chance. I think you gave McGeady 8 and Whealan 4 for the Norway game which i must say made me laugh out loud. I feel like i was watching a different match. Everyone to their own opinion but i think you are unfairly critisising WhealanQuote:
Whelan - ?????????
He doesn't pass well, he doesn't tackle well, he's not good in the air, he's no offensive threat whatsoever. At best he's a presence in the middle of the field that closes down space simply by him being there and nothing else. So what does he do exactly that has people defending his selection?
If we had 11 Kilbanes, all with his attitude and drive in the team, we would be on the right road.Quote:
Originally Posted by joema
Jesus why don't you through the rattle out while you are at it. Nobody has abused your or anything they just disagreed with your view. I gave you a detailed response of my opinion and you refused to reply with any sort of rebuttal.Quote:
Originally Posted by joema
Nobody here is giving Kilbane stick and as Eirebhoy has said he won player of the year one year. However he is not a central midfielder.
Don't like it? Try being a Connolly fan (though Kilbane is one of my favorites as well)Quote:
Originally Posted by joema