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Remember when Turkey were the weak link in our Euro92 Group? We expected to turn them over and duly did; 5-0 in Lansdowne and 1-3 in Istanbul. Did we take a wrong turn since then? Our road taking us to defeat to eventual defeat to Cyprus. Turkey's road taking them to World Cup and European Championship semi-finals. Turkish football the most improved in Europe over the last 15-20 years, both at domestic and International level?
Discuss.
http://foot.ie/showpost.php?p=963220&postcount=36
i made the same point in the "Are We Any Good" thread but it was largley dismissed. I think the correlation between the european successes of Turkeys domestic teams first and the ensuing success of the national team is blindingly obvious.
Well Turkey also has a massive population advantage. That population can sustain large clubs such as Galatassry etc. It's not like with like.
Lads, be honest, Turkey are better than us, I could not see Ireland beating them.
They have a great manager, Fathi Terim.
oh come off it. The question is not one of population - it is how did Turkey go from whipping boys to world beaters? And how did we go from WC quarter finalists to regular failure to qualify?Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
but if you want to talk about the relevance of population... Croatia has a comparable population and is far far far out performing Ireland and is able to sustain a well supported league despite the presence of Serie A "across the water"...
agree with TheBoss - Turkey are way better than us. And they have an excellent manager.
But these dont explain their development and success in the past 15-20 years.
The referee was from Sweden he awarded Ireland a penalty and John Aldridge hailed a taxi, tied his shoe laces and scratch his own arse before he struck the ball.
Th immediate joke at the time (jokes lasted up to three years back then) was 'cos the referee was from Sweden ( again, back then the referees provenience was important, not like now of course). He didn't want England to qualify to his country's championship nor Turkey. Poland and Polish supportres would be tight with there money, so the Rep. of Ireland was the simple answer. It wasn't happening at Lansdowne so the ref. helped Ireland out.
The two Turkey games were the least significant games in the group. Ever other game the Rep. of Irl. played was significant for missed chances or final results.
The eventually result was England (Gary Lineker) scored with 7 minutes to go in Poland (Perhaps Poznan) the same time as the Rep. of Irl. were beating Turkey.
Turkey' as a threat?:
Yes, there is some resentment in Ireland regarding Turkey. Some of it is to do with the fact they knocked us out of a play-off. How extraordinarily rude.
Football in Ireland has always been at a disadvantage in that it is always competing with GAA and Rugby, and also with football in England and Scotland too. Creating a successful domestic league in Ireland will be a big challenge because of that. Maybe there are similarities in Turkey but if there are I am not aware of them.
me neither Emmet. I dont think there are such competing sports there. I still find that excuse a bit poor though. Because the counter argument, then, in our case is that, if soccer is competing with GAA and rugby and struggling then maybe Ireland simply isnt a soccer country and that the best we can and should rightfully hope for is that England can develop enough players for us to qualify for the odd major championship...Quote:
Originally Posted by Emmet
i happen to think we ARE a soccer country just an extremely lazy one.
The reason for Turkey's success has been very well documented and is largely due to a large influx in the 80s & 90s of foreign coaches particularly from Germany. They got stronger tactically and more importantly psycholgically. Bottom line this all cost a lot of money and didn't happen by accident it was planned and financed.
The reason for their development was all those hammerings by the big teams, over the years, the young fans in Turkey got motivated by these games which leads to a mass playing field for Turkish youngsters wanting to play these nations, so as the years go on, pool of players becomes much more, the national team improves every year and then the quality improves to make a great national side.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
:D :DQuote:
Originally Posted by TheBoss
ah sure we're grand then! cant wait!
I'm not sure ... look how difficult it was to get the GAA to let our football team use Croke Park. Up until recently it was difficult for youngsters in some parts of the country to play GAA and soccer - a lot were made to choose one or the other. GAA and rugby have been played in Ireland for longer and soccer is still referred to as the Garrison Game by some (although not by many admittedly!) However, culturally I do think that soccer is still seen as an English game by quite a few Irish people and that makes some uncomfortable accepting it and supporting it. Obviously that's not a view I share and I also don't think that is the only reason why domestic football in Ireland is in the state it's in; but I do think it is a contributing factor.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The game of football has changed dramatically since 1990/91, it should be noted. What worked back then would be hopelessly naive now.
If I recall correctly, we played Turkey in the first and last games of the group, when they were less cohesive (we'd just come back from a bonding session in Italy - ahem), and then when they were out and the game mattered little to them.
They had also just appointed a central European coach (I keep thinking Ernest Happoel), and you could see a developement in their play between our home and away games with them.
I remember that they were pilloried for their passing triangles in the British and Irish media, for not going straight into attack - there has been a significant change in attitude there.
They were technically less adept than now all round the field, but then again, we weren't that mcuh better in that department.
It also should be noted, that the hunger to do well does seem to have diminished here - we were happy to get to our quarter final, and to be thought of as being plucky. Thanks to Attaturk, all those years back, the Turks believe that they should do well at whatever they commit to, so generally they tend to attempt to excel when they see that they do OK in something, thus driving on the development.
Of course, what they new, more religiously led government is an indication of will take a time to manifest.
I also remember us stuffing them 4-0 with Don Givens getting all four.
Frankly I am amazed we've done as well as we have had over the years with a tiny population, no national league worthy of the name in terms of support and a national game that actually banned people playing the sport for years. We just can't be compared to Turkey in any reasonable way. All they needed was a bit of organisation. And it gets worse for us with the competition in England for places in the various teams from all over Europe and beyond. Previously our players had only to compete with Scots and the Welsh.
Not optimistic about the future.
Id imagine the influx of Turkish players (beit 1st, 2nd Generation etc..)to the Bundesliga for example has more than lilely had a positive effect on its national side. Good coaches, competitive league, winning mentatility..........
ah thats it, the EPL probably has No 1 and 2 but falls at number 3.............:D
I think it just shows with hard work and proper structures, anything is possible. Lets not forget Turkey did extremely well in the 2002 World Cup. People where saying it was a fluke back then but this year proved it wasnt. They are a fantastic footballing side and were unlucky not to beat Germany last night.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donadoni
It should be motivation for everyone involved with Ireland and the FAI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The prevalence of GAA and rugby definetly dilutes the pool of players available to play soccer.There are so many brilliant natural athletes in our country who will never play soccer. I can't think of any other European country that has 4 field sports played at such a wide level.
I think the organisation and belief that Greece displayed in the last Euro's are a great example of what can be achieved by teams of limited ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Donadoni
Trapp has reportedly uttered "Remember Greece" as a mantra on a few occasions to the players.
I think Euro 2008 were all about the team ethic as opposed to many outstanding individuals.
Turkey are a fine example of a team unified to one purpose with willing runners all over the pitch.
The Euro 2008 tournament has brought Ireland's lack of a centre midfield into sharper focus more than ever. Some of the teams at the finals are on a different footballing planet to us at the moment.
I fail to see why so many people are highligting population. India and China have populations of over 1 billion, yet have only been in one world cup between them. Sweden only has a population of 9 million yet regularly qualify and do well at tournament. Croatia have a population of just 4.5 million, Czech Republic 10 million and Denmark 5.5 million. These countries regularly qualify for major competitions with Denmark being a past winner. It is much too simple to say that Turkey is doing well because it has a bigger population than us
I wouldnt say hurling and rugby is played at a wide level. A lot of the successfull countries mentioned also have competing sports be it ice hockey , skiing, althetics basketball,tennis cycling etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by DotTV
I agree and think it could be argued that they were the second best team in the 2002 world cup.They gave brazil a very good game in the group stages and not to bad in the second game either.Mind you there were not many quality teams in that finals.They have always had very good natural ability but were inclined to try to walk the ball into the net and had in the past a suspect temperment.Even this time they ended up with alot of suspended players though I believe that they were unlucky[unfair] that their goalkeeper got a two game ban for the push on koller. Schweinstiger only got a one game ban for his sending offQuote:
Originally Posted by L37Ultra
Football is still the most played sport in this country by a long way - 13% v 8% for 2nd placed gaelic. Rugby does not have significant playing numbers.
For all their suppsoed faults the FAI run underage football very well. While our domestic league has lost and will lose some players to the GAA/rugby I can't see us losing too many players capable of playing at the highest level.
As for our current squad we can pick at least 15+ players all playing in the premiership albeit mainly with less fashionable lcubs. A well organsied and well managed team should be capable of competing to qualify for major tournaments. There will be times when agifted group come along together and we could go far in major tournamnets. In 1988 we had 3 of the Liverpool team that were dominant in England and 3 of the Celtic team that won the double in Scotland.
As for Turkey yes they were whipping boys for us in 1990 however they were making rpogress then. England beat them 1-0 twice in that campaign and were lucky both times. They have made huge strides since. They qualified for Euro96. I saw their U17s thrash Holland 3-0 last month. they won that tournament in 2005.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Absolutely it's about population. It's significant factor in supporting a large, economically viable domestic league. Countries like India and China do not yet have a massive number of their populations playing organized football.
Croatia does have a similar population but it's more complext than that. Croatia is doing well now, we don't know if they'll be able to sustain it. They went through a lull when Suker et al moved off the stage. Further, the Croatian league isn't really that good but Serie A and Croatia is not the same as the Premiership and Ireland. The Croats have no real shared history with Italy to same extent as Ireland and the UK, they speak a different language and there has never been that close of a cultural connection. It isn't like with like. This means that they are less likely to support Serie A than your average Irish person.
its not a question of population. Its more to do with the structure, support and financing of their domestic game. And the offshoots of that. Population doesnt really come into it and then only in terms of a larger potential pool of players.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fergie's Son
Regarding the Croatian point i made the Italian reference was a bit tongue in cheek. The point still stands - if, as you suggest, it was as simple as population then Croatia wouldnt be successful. Also i would like to have suffered from the same lull as Croatia did when "Suker et al moved off the stage". They still qualified for World Cups and Euros and have bounced back from any setback a lot quicker than we appear to be...
i think other postes have hit the nail on the head in terms of the competing sports like GAA and rugby and the fact, therefore, that Ireland probably just isnt a soccer country. I guess we should just be glad to be in the position we are, qualifying occasionally for major finals.
a question for everyone -
If you were in charge of Irish soccer in the morning what would be the first thing you would do to improve our chances of regular qualification for the World and Euro Championships? And why?
Fergies son, let me guess - wave a magic wand and increase the population ;)
I think Stuttgart88 started a thread ages ago on that very topic, if rich uncle Vladimir dies and leaves all his money to you to spend on soccer in Ireland, how would you go about it?Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
Music to the ears (eyes) reading all this about Turkey and how good they are compared to us. I wrote it twice on this site and at least twice more on others in the past couple of years. Turkey are better than us for one simple reason.....coaching.
They were our whipping boys through the 70's, 80's and early 90's but resolved to fix their particular problem and are an example to everyone connected with Irish football (I'd like to think that we can learn from them but I know we won't).
As I say, it's all down to coaching and when we finally realise that our domestic coaches aren't really up to it, and those in England, bar the top four, are not worth talking about, you come to the conclusion that we should do one of two things
(a) import top level youth coaches from abroad (preferably South America so as we can hone our kids' skills at a very early age) - to think that one genius on this site cut me to pieces for such a suggestion not two months ago
or
(b) send our youngsters to countries (anywhere but England) where they'll actually be taught the finer points of the game rather than how to run at a hundred miles an hour and, oh by the way, pass the ball once every half hour.
Drastic change is needed at grassroots level in Ireland - but don't hold your breath on it happening. And as far as those youngsters playing GAA and Rugby go - if there was a successful soccer culture for them to follow they would.
Almost fully agree, it is completely about structure and support. Look at Munster - One of the biggest names in world rugby - built on massive local pride, patience with youth development, wise investment and clever marketing all on top of some incredible coaching. How can we say that because we have a small population we cant have a world class football side when our second most populous province can dominate Europe in our second or third most popular sport, regularly beating French (most played sport is rugby) and English (10 times our pool of players) sides and striking fear into the hearts of rugby teams world wide.Quote:
Originally Posted by SkStu
The reason for our failure is the gormless unambitious fools that run our national association. Every time there is a change at the top they roll out the same old uninspiring jobsworths. The marketing of the game is rubbish, the half hearted attempts at building a support community (Munster have done this incredibly well) are a joke. The association relies on the reputation of us the fans to create atmosphere at games without giving anything in return ie. pre match entertainment, more player exposure (website updates on careers etc.) They just sit back and hope for the best. The only reason we got Trap was because Denis O'Brien is paying half his wages for which we should be eternily grateful!!
We need to clean out the FAI from top to bottom and fill those offices with people who have clever business heads and a passion for our game. This could be a bit controversial but I feel that someone like Pat Dolan would be a perfect fit to lead them. He motivated fans everywhere he went, creating the neccesary us v's them attitudes. Yes he ****ed off fans by leaving clubs abrubtly, but given the chance to lead his country I reckon would be a lifetime commitment for him.
Australia is the perfect example of what we should be doing, one world cup and they have appointed the best of the best to run things and showed massive ambition in the coaches they went after. The game is now booming over here with the emphasis on youth development so it will only get bigger. Incidently there are four major field sports over here too, Rugby Union, Rugby League, Aussie Rules and Football. Football is now the second most popular sport largely due to how it is sold to the public. Watch out for a kid called Kaz Patafta by the way.
I would spend it on our domestic league.Because of the number of talented and hungry young players from all over the world being developed by the english clubs that historically developed our young players we need to improve our league and make it more competitive at european level.Our aim though ambitious must be to get clubs into the group stages of the champions league and competitive in the later stages of the uefa cup.This can only be achieved with more popular support and perhaps in this difficult economic climate the irish football supporters that spend fortunes going across to england should choose to support their local clubsQuote:
Originally Posted by tetsujin1979
Like Cesc Fabregas or even Colin Kazim Richards!Quote:
Originally Posted by mark12345
The only way that we can improve the standard of domestic soccer and this boost our international prospects is through profound structural change. The point has been made elsewhere that simple demographics make the current structure unsustainable. A city with a population of Dublin can only support 6,7,8, clubs if we are content to carry on playing at the present level with the present tiny support base. Commercially and competitively successful clubs need a catchment big enough to sustain much larger overheads (prinipally decent salaries for decent players).
An All Ireland League would be a start, but it would require the merger of existing clubs or the creation of entirely new "fanchises". The current structure is utterly blighted and cannot conceivably evolve into one where our clubs could compete successfully in european competitions. The Munster example is a very good and instructive one. In order to compete at the top level and keep our best players at home drastic action was taken and an entirely new competitive structure created. The result is that an Irish club side has won a European title for the second time playing against teams from countries with bigger populations and / or playing pools.
I think we need to be as radical as rugby and even contemplate structures and competitions that straddle wider national boundaries. Scottish football may be more developed and successful but it's commercial future is threatened by the same demographic limitations that are constraining development in Ireland. Beyond Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen there are simply not enough people to ever give other clubs a chance to compete and challenge Old Firm domination. A Celtic League for soccer (perhaps even including Cardiff City, Swansea and a North wales / Deeside franchise) would of course be total anathema for all the vested interests in every footballing jurisdiction, but it might be the only way of sustaining or developing meaningful club football in these nations.
There is vast untapped support base for soccer in Ireland as witnessed by the weekly migrations to Britain and the support that the national team enjoys. There is no point decrying those who support Man U, Liverpool, Celtic et al and demanding that they transfer their allegiance to what is simply not a sufficiently attractive product in the EL.
I know that this kind of radical model faces a lot of challenges - would UEFA sanction such a structure and what would happen to European competition places etc, but these could be overcome with a modicum of imagination and flexibility. The benefits for the national team could be immense as we would have a much better chance of developing the talent that is currently exported to England where most of it ends of festering in reserve teams and lower leagues.
I know its a non-starter but it worked for rugby and I cannot see another way forward.
As a Pats fan i'd obviously be totally against this idea but let's say it was implemented, your still going to have very small crowds going. Lets say Shelbourne Rovers and Bohemians Athlethic are the only two clubs in Dublin and they're playing in an All-Ireland competition, do you really think Anto in his Utd jersey and Deco in his Celtic jersey are going to bother going to watch them play Glentoran? If it did happen I think it would actually finally kill off domestic football. I know i'd turn my back on it anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
Surely the Scottish example shows us that having a (relatively) strong domestic league does not necessarily equate to having a strong national team.
I read somewhere recently (it may well have been on these forums actually!) that England have started capping a lot more Irish-eligible players at U.21 level to prevent them being 'lost' to us at senior level (once a player is capped at U.21 he cannot then play for another country). There's nothing wrong with Irish-born, second generation Irish etc playing their football in England; we have got to make sure that we get them capped early so that when they mature they are wearing a green jersey and not a white one!
That's my point. such a spectacle would be no more or less attractive than what's currently on offer in the EL. So let's be more radical. How about 2 Dublin clubs one playing in Landsdown Rd and the other at a new stadium north of the river playing in the same competition as the Old Firm. We need a total step change like what happened in rugby, not a tinkering with the EL or simple merger with the IL. The combined population base of Wales. Ireland and Scotland provides the basis for a commercially successful structure comprising big enough clubs, with big enough stadia, significant tv income and enough attractive fixtures to excite the public.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie
Quote:
Originally Posted by third policeman
I've made this point many times before on various threads. THe reality is that Leinster and Munster both get bigger crowds than the total attendences for all EL games each week.
Prior to the Heineken cup, Leinster would be lucky to get a 1,000 attendance.
A Celtic league would get massive sponsorship and would attract the crowds very quickly if we had just 4 to 8 clubs in Ireland, based in Dublin, Cork, Derry, Belfast, and 3 or 4 other locations. While it will alienate some if not all die hard EL supporters it is the only way to bring in real revenue to compete in the Champions League. And after a few years the amount of kids wearing Utd / Liverpool jersies etc would drop as they followed their local club competing with Rangers / Celtic / Cardiff etc.
Do either of you two go to games here?
If not, why not?
Why can't they do that now? If Celtic were involved do you really think people would be supporting teams playing against them? If anything there'd be even more Celtic fans here...Quote:
Originally Posted by Greenforever
I've made this point many times before on various threads. THe reality is that Leinster and Munster both get bigger crowds than the total attendences for all EL games each week.
Prior to the Heineken cup, Leinster would be lucky to get a 1,000 attendance.
A Celtic league would get massive sponsorship and would attract the crowds very quickly if we had just 4 to 8 clubs in Ireland, based in Dublin, Cork, Derry, Belfast, and 3 or 4 other locations. While it will alienate some if not all die hard EL supporters it is the only way to bring in real revenue to compete in the Champions League.
Sounds wonderful but i think seeing stan holdng the world cup trophy aloft as the manager of brazil is more likely!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint_Charlie
If you're asking do I go to games, yes occassionally, but definitely went much more regularly before summer soccer.
A successful team will capture the kids interest, it's the kids that will drag Adults to matches. My kids were regular EL supporters but now only very occassionally go to EL games. The problem is a lot of EL supporters burying their heads in the sand and thinking all is great when it's far from that. No matter what people say or want etc, the EL is very poorly supported and this wont change without drastic surgery, and that involves a massive reduction in top flight clubs and a cross borders league. The previously mooted Atlantic league would be ideal with say 2-4 clubs from for example Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Denmark, Norway, Sweeden, Holland and Belguim. An average of 4 clubs per country would give you two 16 team leagues which would attract massive TV money and in time massive crowds.
Can you imagine 2 Irish clubs competing like in the heineken cup, they would fill a 50,000 stadium every game and be able in time to compete with the top premiership clubs financially.
It won't happen because we have no-one big enough to force through change as radical as above.
As a Pats fan I'm opposed to anything that threatens the future of my club, and I'm sure Bohs, Shels and Rovers fans(rightly) feel the same way. I support St Patricks Athletic FC, not the Eircom league and not "Irish Soccer". I doubt if the hardcore fanbases of these clubs would be tempted by a shiny new "Dublin City", or "Dublin United". Sure you might attract the current barstool (for want of a better term) viewers, or casual fans to such a new venture, but the thing about "hardcore" supporters is that they're the ones who will go to games every week. Take their teams away and you will almost certainly lose them from the game. And then what are you left with ? Casual fans who might be attracted to "glamour" games but won't be seen dead at anything which isn't "Sexy". E.g in your mythical Celtic league these will be the people who will clamour for tickets to see Celtic, but wild horses won't be able to drag them to see Cardiff, Swansea or Linfield. Besides, talk of a Celtic league assumes there's interest from Scotland and Wales, and frankly, what have we got to offer them ? Comparisons with Rugby are wide of the mark. The game has a totally different structure to it's competitions, with no real history of leagues etc. As we've seen with other sports (GAA) it's relatively easy to get Irish people worked up for 4/5 games a year. Anything that requires any more commitment than that and people generally don't want to know. It's not a question of supporters of EL clubs (I don't really think there's any such creature as an "EL supporter") burying their heads in the sand either. Supporters know, more than anyone else the problems facing the league, and it certainly frustrates the hell out of me that my team isn't better supported.
The answer is to promote and take pride in our own league. It's not the quick fix, it's slow and very difficult, but with the right attitude it could be done. Pat Dolan gets a of of peoples backs up and he may be full of crap about some things, but one thing I always agreed with him about is that it's about attitude. If you act as if a game matters, act as if our teams matter, act as if a top of the table EL clash is an important event, then who knows, people might just start to agree. I agree that better coaching is needed and ideally we should be developing our own players to start, hopefully, producing some football like we saw from Spain over the past couple of weeks. That will never happen while we're tied to English clubs to develop our players. However, the argument that people don't go to games here because the standard isn't good doesn;t really wash. The standard of the league is now probably the best it's ever been, and I know Pats, for example, are playing the best football that I've seen them produce since I started going regularly 14 years ago. So you would imagine, if the argument was to hold water, that as the standard improved then so would the crowds. This isn't the case. In fact I'd guess Pats were getting better crowds ten years ago.
To sum up, my contention has always been that it's about attitude and perception. And until we change both of those we're going nowhere.
Tony you sound like an intelligent chap but comments like that about rugby are based on ignorance. Rugby in Ireland has a huge amount of history. The AIL and Inter Provincial series were huge for rugby fans, read Mick Galway's book - the Munster Senior cup was the most important competition for him to win purely because of its history - these comps have been diluted in order to support the Magners League and Heineken Cup. They have not been done away with completely and are now an important part of the development of young players who have the opportunity to play against ex- internationals and on occasion current internationals as they are all registered with AIL clubs. I would think that any Irish football fan would support something being done to improve our level of competitiveness and would agree that something like a Celtic League would be perfect although highly highly unlikely. So in the meantime I agree fully with your sentiments on attitude and perception, until those are revitalised we have no hope of ever improving.Quote:
Originally Posted by TonyD