Modern Football

this is based off a conversation I had tonight whilst watching the Utd Braca game. Basically some ol' lad said that if this was the best modern football has to offer he'll pass. I started talking to him about it, he asked who I rate as the three best teams in the world, I said arguably it's Utd, Barca and Arsenal on their day, he said exactly, none of them match up to the great Madrid, Ajax, Liverpool or Milan teams so what's the point, as he said the Champions League since Zidane's Madrid team has been a celebration of mediocrity, and there hasn't been a player to emerge to hold a candle to Zidane in this decade. Whatcha all think? Personally I think he has a point

zidane was nothing when nhe was 19, lets see messi and ronaldo in 6 yrs time, its a tough call really but a good point at the same time.

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Originally Posted by bellavistaman

zidane was nothing when nhe was 19, lets see messi and ronaldo in 6 yrs time, its a tough call really but a good point at the same time.

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Ronaldo hasn't it in him to be anywhere near Zidane's level, Messi maybe, but I think his point about the celebration of mediocrity is spot on.I mean Porto and Liverpool, followed by a Barca team who didn't deserve to win the final and a Milan side clearly in decline doesn't great champions make

agreed, like if liverpool win it this year we all might aswell give up supporting football, they've only had to challenge for one trophy since xmas because their so ****e and they could go on and win the champions league, the prem league champions should win it in theory, best team in the best league, not the 4th best team.

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Originally Posted by bellavistaman

agreed, like if liverpool win it this year we all might aswell give up supporting football, they've only had to challenge for one trophy since xmas because their so ****e and they could go on and win the champions league, the prem league champions should win it in theory, best team in the best league, not the 4th best team.

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Personally I think La Liga is better than the Prem but I see your point. Honestly I think the Champions League should revert back to just the Champions playing it, or at the very most the top two. The current system is just rubbish, but obviously TV rights will dictate what happens in the coming years. Football just isn't the same anymore

The amount of money involved with these clubs means that they can suck up all the available talent and it just stagnates, rather than forming the strong team play that it would otherwise do at a variety of teams.

English football is also to the fore at the moment and it has always been as much about a solid backline and physically superior forward line as anything. Added to that, the players we would expect to look to for the genius of Maradona and Zizou are now supremely overpaid primadonnas with all the media focus of Britney Spears. While obviously quite well paid, there remained something of a love for the game in those players, but it must be quite hard to maintain that with the money, the bitching, the ultra-diets, the emphasis on physical strength, the pressure and the fickleness of it all. Witness the transformation of the ever smiling wonderkid Ronaldinho into a prissy, tired shadow of himself. If one was to personify the ever so subtle transition from "i love the game, and finally we're getting paid a ton for it!" to "another bloody weeks work against another ever-increasingly familiar foreign array of similarly well paid superstars. hurrah." it must be (tubby) Ronaldo's career.

Agree 100% - I have been saying similar things myself on the Champions League thread. Until the Champions League returns to a straight knock-out format or alternatively admits only the champions (which as long as Sky and UEFA are around will never happen) the mediocre showings at the top end of European football are going to get worse and occur more often.

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Originally Posted by bellavistaman

zidane was nothing when nhe was 19, lets see messi and ronaldo in 6 yrs time, its a tough call really but a good point at the same time.

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Zidane was a great talent at that age, we simply didn't hear about him over here until he went to Italy. French football wasn't a big thing and he had many seasons under the public radar. To say he was nothing is just plain silly.
As for the point on football not being what it used to be, the old man was right. Since the retirement of The Great Man I just haven't been able to find a true great to just blow me away with pure genius as only Zizou has done in my lifetime. I thought maybe Kaka, then Messi, but I just don't think they have what it takes to be as incredible as Zidane. Yes they are young and have time and may prove me wrong. But they most certainly will be hard pushed to match his career in terms of personal glory.
In five years time there may be no great players left. Just a bunch of Didier Drogbas and Ashley Coles..
The death of the great player..... 1955(Di Stefano) to 2006(Zidane)..

No al Calcio moderno!

In fairness we all know the magic has gone at the top level but as long as 17 billion people tune in to the TV and by the 'product' the business of football will prosper. All the more reason to enjoy the reality of real live football on your doorstep.

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Originally Posted by jebus

Personally I think La Liga is better than the Prem but I see your point. Honestly I think the Champions League should revert back to just the Champions playing it, or at the very most the top two. The current system is just rubbish, but obviously TV rights will dictate what happens in the coming years. Football just isn't the same anymore

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The EPL top 4 is better than the La Liga top 4, outside of that La Liga is stronger. Same goes for Serie A for that matter. I think the CL and Uefa cup have shown that over the last few years.
Cannot see the CL ever reverting back to champions only as per your TV monies point.

well everyone in our office was raving about how brilliant Messi was to watch last night. Some of the stuff he pulled off last night was a joy to behold. Every generation of fans (whether it's music, sport or cinema) think it was always better in 'their day'.

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Originally Posted by shakermaker1982

well everyone in our office was raving about how brilliant Messi was to watch last night. Some of the stuff he pulled off last night were a joy to behold. Every generation of fans (whether it's music, sport or cinema) think it was always better in 'their day'.

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True, but it's hard to argue against the point that top level football has lost a lot of it's sparkle due to the influx of huge money into the game. Fans feeling out of touch with players who earn more in a month than the US President does in a year, chairmen who don't understand football in any other way than as figures on a spreadsheet, turning the major grounds in Europe into tourist attractions (Old Trafford is practically mini-EuroDisney at this stage) while pushing out the working class fans who can't afford to support their team anymore, and just the general feeling that clubs outside of Barca, Madrid, Juve, the Milans, Bayern, Utd, Chelsea, Liverpool and Arsenal are just kept around to make up the numbers.

I genuinely think that football at the top level is going to hit a crossroads soon where it will have to choose between being a sport that reconnects with it's communities, or becoming sports entertainment that is solely designed to sell packages and shirts to visiting tourists

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Originally Posted by jebus

I genuinely think that football at the top level is going to hit a crossroads soon where it will have to choose between being a sport that reconnects with it's communities, or becoming sports entertainment that is solely designed to sell packages and shirts to visiting tourists

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It reached the crossroads a long time ago, and chose the route/root of all evil

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Originally Posted by seand

It reached the crossroads a long time ago, and chose the route/root of all evil

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Yeah but people are only waking up to it now. On the English football forums there is constant stories of fans of Premier League clubs drifting away from them and starting to support lower league sides because it's just cheaper. As they say though, after years of supporting one club it just doesn't feel the same, and hence their interest in football wanes. I think this is going to happen more and more to be honest

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Originally Posted by bellavistaman

agreed, like if liverpool win it this year we all might aswell give up supporting football, they've only had to challenge for one trophy since xmas because their so ****e and they could go on and win the champions league, the prem league champions should win it in theory, best team in the best league, not the 4th best team.

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I'm getting sick of the nay-sayers here speaking garbage about Liverpool. if they beat Chelsea tonight they'll be in their third Final in 4 years, surely they can't be that cr@p then can they. Ok so they haven't won the the Sky Sports hyped Premiership in 18 years so what as I've said previously I'd rather be champions of Europe than Champions of England every time

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Originally Posted by jebus

I genuinely think that football at the top level is going to hit a crossroads soon where it will have to choose between being a sport that reconnects with it's communities, or becoming sports entertainment that is solely designed to sell packages and shirts to visiting tourists

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I think football at all levels has hit a wall. The standard has certainly declined and the amount of naturally talented players is dwindling. The pressure to win by any means has long overtaken the will to play flowing, expressive football. 80's and early 90's we had Platini, Maradonna, Zico, Hoddle, Dalglish, Van Basten, Bergkamp, Guillit, Baggio, Zidanes, Romario, Hagi, Stoicevich, Francescoli to name a few how many of that standard have we seen in the last 7 or 8 years?

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I'm getting sick of the nay-sayers here speaking garbage about Liverpool. if they beat Chelsea tonight they'll be in their third Final in 4 years,

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Im pretty sure thats your mans point.

If a team as poor to watch and with as many average players as Liverpoool can pull this off then it only validates his point.

Before the usual 'damn Man U supporters' response from somewhere, I dont support any other team. But I love watching football.

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Originally Posted by micls

Im pretty sure thats your mans point.

If a team as poor to watch and with as many average players as Liverpoool can pull this off then it only validates his point.

Before the usual 'damn Man U supporters' response from somewhere, I dont support any other team. But I love watching football.

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I would contest that a team with "so many Average Players" would never get to 3 finals in 4 years. I'll concede the point that Liverpool may not be the most entertaining team to watch at times but I think it's a disservice to the players to repeatedly describe them as average when clearly they are very very good at doing what is required of them. football is a results based game and Liverpool have consistently achieved the required results under Benitez

I was thinking recently that there was a "lull" in player standards since some of the better players of the 90s faded away though you've got to say that some of the young players in the game today are simply astounding.

Look at the finalists and semi finalists in the last WC. Both Italy and France were predominantly over 30 and included players regarded as past their best.

I know you can cite the likes of Kaka and Pirlo as examples of modern stars in their prime but it seems that the cohort of 25-29 year olds at the top of today's game isn't as good or plentiful as in the past.

It also seems as if eastern Europe is starting to (re)emerge as a "producer" of talent.

Just a gut feeling on this one, I'm sure greater studiers of the world game can easily expose my argument.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I would contest that a team with "so many Average Players" would never get to 3 finals in 4 years. I'll concede the point that Liverpool may not be the most entertaining team to watch at times but I think it's a disservice to the players to repeatedly describe them as average when clearly they are very very good at doing what is required of them. football is a results based game and Liverpool have consistently achieved the required results under Benitez

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They are still average footballers imo. Even if they manage the job they are given. The success has come from the team performances rather than individuals.

It may be a results based business for those with interest in the teams involved. For neutrals though its also entertainment. And Liverpool rarely entertain.

The players dont care about Int football as much and it is a shame.I dont sat this out of sour grapes because our lads have been so crap.I remember watching great tournaments like Spain 82,France 84 and Mexico 86 as a kid and the whole thing seemed magical.Rose tinted glasses maybe but the last few int tournaments have'nt had the same sense of occasion.

I tend to agree with the general sentiment here. I don't think standards have gone down, in fact I think they've improved, but football is certainly less entertaining and more about sheer physicality these days, and improving standards mean less errors which in a roundabout way makes matches less worth watching because it's like watching a team of near-robots play another team of near-robots to see who can defend the best.

Also, I agree with GavinZac's rant, especially about the top clubs just buying the best players and not developing their own local talent. You may argue that we still get some players through the youth teams in the Premiership but how many of Chelsea's or Arsenal's future stars will actually have come from the lowest level of the youth system? Precious few I'd guess. Most will have been poached from other clubs about Europe.

Ah, nothing like a bitter rant about the decline of football on a Wednesday night to refresh the soul. :D

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Originally Posted by jebus

Personally I think La Liga is better than the Prem but I see your point. Honestly I think the Champions League should revert back to just the Champions playing it, or at the very most the top two. The current system is just rubbish, but obviously TV rights will dictate what happens in the coming years. Football just isn't the same anymore

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The competition would be full of mismatches under the old system and probably would be even with 2 allowed in from some countries. I'm not sure if you are talking in a utopian way or what but it I cant see it ever going back as a "European Super League", would be set up straight away were UEFA to even try it. Witness attempts at trying to limit champions league places to 4 in each country.
I have actually been pleasantly surprised by the entertainment levels of the big matches that I have watched recently. Entertainment wise I would have the current situation as alot more entertaining than what we had in the early to mid 90's, but then again I never saw any of the 70's or 80's which you are probably refering to.

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

I would contest that a team with "so many Average Players" would never get to 3 finals in 4 years.

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How right you were.

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Originally Posted by jebus

this is based off a conversation I had tonight whilst watching the Utd Braca game. Basically some ol' lad said that if this was the best modern football has to offer he'll pass. I started talking to him about it, he asked who I rate as the three best teams in the world, I said arguably it's Utd, Barca and Arsenal on their day, he said exactly, none of them match up to the great Madrid, Ajax, Liverpool or Milan teams so what's the point, as he said the Champions League since Zidane's Madrid team has been a celebration of mediocrity, and there hasn't been a player to emerge to hold a candle to Zidane in this decade. Whatcha all think? Personally I think he has a point

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def agree here
Apart from Messi i dont think there is a quality player out there at the moment
For fecks sake John o sea might get a CL medal.!!!
I hope manure utd get it, only for the fact that Alex deserves one more for all the excitement he has generated for the competition down through the years
Would be a bit sickning to see the likes of Drogba, lampard, and ballack collect cl medals

I was lucky to have seen maradona, baresi and maldini def partnership, Ajax, the dutch trio at AC, etc
I find football very depressing to watch these days, dare i say it ...boring:(

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Originally Posted by Pike B

Zidane was a great talent at that age, we simply didn't hear about him over here until he went to Italy. French football wasn't a big thing and he had many seasons under the public radar. To say he was nothing is just plain silly.
..

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thats not true, Zidane (who is one of my all time favs) didnt really shine until he went to italy
You only have to look at his performance at the Euros in england to see he was still very much in the development stage

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Originally Posted by Ceirtlis

The competition would be full of mismatches under the old system and probably would be even with 2 allowed in from some countries.

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The only reason that is the case is because the smaller European countries are paying the price for the top nations getting 3 or 4 teams into the competition each year. If this wasn't the case we'd still have teams like Dinamo Kiev having an excellent team and doing well in the competition. The problem now is that you can go from a team who has won their domestic league in a weaker nation to a team who hasn't won their domestic league one of the big countries and you'll have a better chance of playing in the Champions League. That is one of the main reasons why European football is becoming so polarised; there's no incentive to play in your own nation any more.

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Originally Posted by micls

. And Liverpool rarely entertain.

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Thats right, very boring
uefa cup final v Alves score 5-4
CL final v Milan score 3-3
Fa Cup final v West Ham 3-2
CL 1/4 final v Arsenel 5-3 agg

how did I manage to stay awake:rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by papa-j

Thats right, very boring
uefa cup final v Alves score 5-4
CL final v Milan score 3-3
Fa Cup final v West Ham 3-2
CL 1/4 final v Arsenel 5-3 agg

how did I manage to stay awake:rolleyes:

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You're right, every game Liverpool is a thriller. me and all the others that think differently are just blind.

Well done on coming up with 5 entertaining games Lvierpool have been involved in in the last 5 years though :)

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Originally Posted by micls

You're right, every game Liverpool is a thriller. me and all the others that think differently are just blind.

Well done on coming up with 5 entertaining games Lvierpool have been involved in in the last 5 years though :)

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What team has most goals in this seasons CL ?

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Originally Posted by Block G Raptor

What team has most goals in this seasons CL ?

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And that autmatically means they're not a boring team? how many of game came in teh space of 2 games against rubbish opposition?

Im not arguing this anymore, theres no point. But ask any non Liverpool fan if they are an entertaining footballing side and Id imagine the vastmajority would agree with me.

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Originally Posted by bennocelt

thats not true, Zidane (who is one of my all time favs) didnt really shine until he went to italy
You only have to look at his performance at the Euros in england to see he was still very much in the development stage

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So Juventus signed him for fun yes?? He was already impressing at that stage, and if you check it out you'll find he was being called France's new Platini before Euro 96 even began. So if that isn't shining then what is?? And he is my favourite ever player so I'm not just saying it for the sake of it.
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Originally Posted by Pike B

So Juventus signed him for fun yes?? He was already impressing at that stage, and if you check it out you'll find he was being called France's new Platini before Euro 96 even began. So if that isn't shining then what is?? And he is my favourite ever player so I'm not just saying it for the sake of it.
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He is also one of my all time favs too, I love the guy but the fatc is he was very bad in the Euros, really bad. I think he fell over the ball a few times too!!

yeah there was a lot of hype before that tournament about Zidane, thats corretc but he put it too bed with his inept performances and it took him a while to raise his game to another level

french football?

Anyone who thinks standards in world football haven't deteriorated, watch this.



The last great game of the modern era? A match shorn of Maradona which still boasted Hagi and Batistuta. Are there are any players of that quality in the game today? Not to mention the contemporaneous Stoichkov, Klinsmann (to suggest that any modern striker belongs to the same species as Batistuta or Klinsmann is sacrilege) et al.

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Originally Posted by papa-j

Thats right, very boring
uefa cup final v Alves score 5-4
CL final v Milan score 3-3
Fa Cup final v West Ham 3-2
CL 1/4 final v Arsenel 5-3 agg

how did I manage to stay awake:rolleyes:

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4 games in the last 6-7 years not very entertaining :D:D

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Anyone who thinks standards in world football haven't deteriorated, watch this.

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All Romanian goals are good but Argentina's second was a goalkeeping mistake. Bati's skill for the peno is amazing.

WC 94 was the tournament where I fell in love with football. The football was such a great specatcle. Brazil, Bulgaria, Romania, Italy, Sweden, all put on great displays. Some great goals too. Owairan springs to mind.

Some more:

Yeah thanks for that! great match

by the way
Brazil - France 1986 is still tops for me:)

Belgium USSR in 86 was the best game I ever saw. 5-3 belgium it ended, I think.