Football Academy

I always felt that LOI clubs go out of business because they lack a basic catchment and structure for the supply of local talent, which is supplied by developing a football academy. Obviously Wexford Youths will break that mould and Sporting Fingal will follow with proper academies. The type suggested in Fingal is at a planning stage and will involving 55 junior and youth teams, who don't go out of existence, rather they co-operate together with their local rivals to have their players developed and released back to the club.

Hows about the fans of "established" Dublin teams go and do something to put their houses in order. Actually just do something positive about the state of domestic football rather than whine at Sporting Fingal for potentially taking away some of their fans....

A man with a bit of common sense, Too much b*tching from other more established club's supporters about sporting. A club is trying to do it right and they get slagged off. Shels fans moaning because they say sporting took santry stadium and also they say it was shels who where to move to Turvey avenue. Well the fact of the matter is if you did run your clubs properly maybe there wouldnt be a need for sporting, But here we are;)

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Originally Posted by Lamper.sffc

A man with a bit of common sense, Too much b*tching from other more established club's supporters about sporting. A club is trying to do it right and they get slagged off. Shels fans moaning because they say sporting took santry stadium and also they say it was shels who where to move to Turvey avenue. Well the fact of the matter is if you did run your clubs properly maybe there wouldnt be a need for sporting, But here we are;)

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Thanks for chiming in. Not many people know this but the Council did everything it could for of 6 years to get up to three "prominent" LOI clubs to locate in Fingal. Sporting Fingal was born out of the realisation that none would come because their Boards/fans were being political about what they'd get/loose if they moved. One of these clubs played at Santry before and left significant rent arrears with the Council, one other was making promises it could not keep because of the poor state of its finances, one other couldn't decide where it wanted to be once it sold its existing ground keeping numerous options "open" an not making an actual committment.

The LOI clubs are run by messers in the main. What would be best for domestic football in ireland is if all the existing clubs folded and new entities were set up so reforms could be installed from the get-go. These reforms are:
- own and finance YOUR OWN stadium
- set up a football academy with strong links to 50-60 junior clubs
- have a well defined cathment area so that businesses are interested and that fans have some kind of sense of community

Sporting Fingal and wexford youths are the only two clubs that are "sustainable"

What are you talking about ?
First off, Shels were never going to move to Turvey Avenue.

Secondly, do you think Sporting Fingal are going to be the first club in the country with youth teams :) Shelbourne have 17 very successful junior teams playing at different ages and some of the current squad have come up through those teams.

If you go the Wexford route you'll never get promoted.
In fact your current set up couldn't be more different to Wexford! You're already out bidding other teams for certain players!!

Care to mention what the weekly wage bill is at Sporting Fingal ?

My information says that the late Ollie Byrne was looking at Turvey, but also another site closer to Swords centre.

Shelbourne might have a lot of youth teams but its not an academy in the proper sense. A big set of reforms in football development passed by most LOI clubs and fans. New coaching methods are still not implemented.

The similarity to Wexford is not currently there if you mean that our academy isn't open yet. But the two teams are set up in similar ways and will be similar.

Obviously some top class talent was bought in to kick-start the club. The wage bill is probably one of the highest in the 1st, but still a lot of guys with big wages at Tolka Park.

You only focussed on one of my points - what about owning your own stadium, putting roots into one community. I used to watch shelbourne a bit when they played at the dog-track in Harolds X. All LOI clubs are rootless because they have no sense of community.

Ollie was talking about a site on the Hearse Road at Lissenhall, never Turvey Avenue. We never had the kind of money to build a stadium there anyway so it was never a runner.
I agree owning your own ground is what has to happen but Shels are not in a position to go buying land and forking out to build a stadium.

and whats this about Shels having high paid players ???
You must have a very different opinion of high wages to the one I have. We're a part time club operating on a 39 paying weeks of the year and our wage bill is about one fifth of what it was in 2006 when we paid players over 52 weeks and is about 1K to 2K a week lower than what it was in 2007.

I wish you the best of luck, I'm actually one of the few who think that Sporting Fingal will be a success if the move to Swords happens but I fail to see the link with Wexford ?? Wexford have plenty of players who don't get paid too!

I guess you don't know what the weekly wage bill at Sporting Fingal is ??

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Originally Posted by higgins

I guess you don't know what the weekly wage bill at Sporting Fingal is ??

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Heard from the dad of one of the players on Sunday that Liam Buckley was given 1 million to spend

What does the wage bill of the players have to do with it.

The fact still remains that if shels was run properly they would not be where they are and yes they where looking at turvey avenue (have a reliable source) and swords area.

It has a lot to do with it. On one hand I'm hearing that you're going to have a football academy and players in youth teams will come up through the ranks and on the other hand I've heard stories about Liam Buckley being told to sign who he wants.

I think your idea of a fairytale under 5 player going up through the ages and making the first team is never going to happen. You're either going to buy in the talent (which is fair enough) or you're going to play local lads and finish second from bottom with Wexford every season ??

You can't have it both ways.

What are you talking about with looking at Turvey Avenue for Shels ?? and the Swords area ??
As I mentioned, we never had the money to build a stadium and we still don't have the money to build a stadium.

I said looking at. I didnt say for definite. The council where willing to help out just like they are with SF.

Why not both ways. Strong youth system that brings players through to the first team and then buy the experienced or extra quality you need. Makes perfect sense to me. :rolleyes:

On a much larger scale but still the same mentality, this is what arsenal have done. Working ok for them.

Fingal council went to Rosenberg football club in norway to see how they run there club. If SF are using some of Rosenberg's ideas then that might not be a bad thing. They dominate Norwegian football and regularly qualify for champions league group stages. All this from an area similar in population size to fingal.

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

All LOI clubs are rootless because they have no sense of community.

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That's the most ridiculous comment I've read on this thread. While that may be true for the Dublin clubs (although I wouldn't be 100% sure on that), partly due to the number of teams in the city, it certainly isn't true for other EL teams. Clubs such as Cork, Galway and Derry have great links with their community and the people that are working behind the scenes at those clubs deserve a lot of credit for the large crowds that attend their games.

Some very veiled compliments towards the Youths in these posts One minute we are doing the right thing by building slowly, keeping finances in check, being community based and then we are being criticised for not achieving immediate success on the field. If success is to come in this County, which has never had senior representation in league football, it has to be done with solid foundations and not with a Peter Ridsdale approach.
I will gladly congratulate Sporting Fingal if they achieve on field success before us but I will be happy, for the time being, just seeing our club develop and gather support

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

Sporting Fingal was born out of the realisation that none would come because their Boards/fans were being political about what they'd get/loose if they moved.

Sporting Fingal and wexford youths are the only two clubs that are "sustainable"

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Obvious you know nothing of Sportings genesis.


What is sustainable in terms of senior domestic club football that Sporting or Wexford have above others?

Sorry, to leap to my own defence I am well informed and I have on good authority that the late Ollie Byrne recieved a huge amount of help from the Council getting shown sites, being introduced to local "promoters", and talking to te Sports Department about how a LOI club was needed as the ultimate destination for the academy. Shelbourne were within a whisker of being Sporting Fingal but bottled it.

As regards football academies I know very well what I'm talking about I lived in Wood Green in London where the local authority built a massive football academy. The area was a bit deprived and the academy helped in a massive way to reduce crime and it was used by 23 local teams to improve (deep breathe) adult coaches, refereeing, team tactics, ball skills, physical development, physical fitness, sports psychology, correct use of clothing and equipment, diet, sports injuries, goalkeeping. I went in with a youth team and it was brilliant, you could see the improvement in players after 2 days! There are also football philosophies available like Coerver and Salou which emphasise confidence building - age and physique appropriate skills instead of the traditional irish youth football philosophy which I have heard local coaches on the Northside saying to 15 yo's

"keek de fookin ball ya muppe', ah try gaelic yer brootal a' dis "

I'm a bit miffed to see some LOI fans here assuming that there are set levels of skill. i.e. you dismiss out of hand that Fingal will be a net contributor to the skills in the league. Don't try this with me. It means I will have to gloat in about 5 years time when Sporting Fingal has a team full of academy graduates.

Oh, and if ppl think we are going to fail why do most LOI fans not want us to exist?

What is sustainable in terms of senior domestic club football that Sporting or Wexford have above others?[/quote]

Wexford are sustainable because they have no debt (thanks Mick), low wage bill, top class facilities that generate additional income outside of match day revenue, a hungry audience (yes, I know the football has to improve to sustain high crowd numbers) and the fact they have been established at a time when it appears the Eircom league has improved it's management and promotion of the game. We have a very successful youth set up and the shirt carries 3 stars over the crest to represent the titles they have won.
I'm not saying other clubs don't have these features as well but I'm sure a few would like to start over again with a clean slate

Just wondering when the new stadium in Swords will be built. Has a site been located? From what I heard SF have a 2 year lease in Morton. Will any other EL club be joining them in the future in Morton? Just wondering. Think the club is a good idea, especially if you can get the clubs in the area to row in behind you, however I did hear certain clubs complaining about the money being spent on SF compared to the lack of facilities for some local clubs.

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

Just wondering when the new stadium in Swords will be built. Has a site been located? From what I heard SF have a 2 year lease in Morton. Will any other EL club be joining them in the future in Morton? Just wondering. Think the club is a good idea, especially if you can get the clubs in the area to row in behind you, however I did hear certain clubs complaining about the money being spent on SF compared to the lack of facilities for some local clubs.

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Yes, you are right I think - Morton will be used (owned by the Council) for 2-3 years. The new stadium, form my understanding, will be built very close to the northern most stop of the Metro but not far from the academy at Turvey. I'm not 100% sure but I think the Councillors are yet to approve the site for the academy. I don't know how well developed the plans are for the stadium. Reading quotes from John O'Brien (club secretary) in the Indo you get the feeling that the stadium is still a work in progress. He spoke about a 10,000 all seater but then said something about this being tempered with realism about the likely size of the fanbase.

For the record, I want Sporting Fingal to be a success and I don't want any football club to go out of business.
My problem with what you are saying is you think that Fingal for some reason are going to bring through a load of players of LOI quality.

Have you any idea of the youth setups are current clubs ???

If these players are as good as you seem to think they will be on a plane at 16 and playing for english clubs. You won't have the pick of the players no matter what amount of money you pay them. I can only speak about Shelbourne but every year we have players who go across to english clubs rather than fight to get into the Shelbourne first team. You're left with very few that will make the grade at the top of the LOI. IF you want to be like Wexford and success is not high up your list of priorities then you'll do ok but if you want to compete for silverware you're never going to have the talent coming through a youth system as the best of them will be across the water at age 16.

I'm not saying buying players is an issue, it's part of football but you seem to think you're more like a Wexford than a Drogheda.

You're not!!!

You're spending more than most LOI first division teams on wages.

The last stop on the metro is Lissenhall isn't it ??
You put a stadium there you're screwed,, as you would be if you use the academy site on Turvey avenue. The upcoming LAP for Swords should provide you with a better piece of land in a more central location. If that happens then I believe you will be successful but only through continued spending of money and buying your way to some success while you wait for the stadium to be built. As long as you have a backer there's nothing wrong with spending money.

The reason people give out about new clubs is rubbish like this thread. Coming on here and saying that all other clubs should fold because they arent community based clubs with huge academys and then preaching about how great Sporting Fingal and Wexford are really annoys fans of the more established clubs.

I really want both Wexford and Sporting to succeed because they are both trying to grow ''organically'' without throwing stupid money that they have not got around.

For the record UCD have a football in the community/Academy which has just been launched. Within a couple of years we will be as much a part of the local community as any club in this country. Its taken us a long time to plan,develop and finance this project but we know that long term it will be worth it.

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Originally Posted by higgins

. IF you want to be like Wexford and success is not high up your list of priorities then you'll do ok but if you want to compete for silverware you're never going to have the talent coming through a youth system as the best of them will be across the water at age 16.

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I can't keep explaining the set up at The Youths. We do want success but don't expect it immediately. And certainly not at the expense of setting down sustainable foundations

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Originally Posted by higgins

For the record, I want Sporting Fingal to be a success and I don't want any football club to go out of business.
My problem with what you are saying is you think that Fingal for some reason are going to bring through a load of players of LOI quality.

Have you any idea of the youth setups are current clubs ???

If these players are as good as you seem to think they will be on a plane at 16 and playing for english clubs. You won't have the pick of the players no matter what amount of money you pay them. I can only speak about Shelbourne but every year we have players who go across to english clubs rather than fight to get into the Shelbourne first team. You're left with very few that will make the grade at the top of the LOI. IF you want to be like Wexford and success is not high up your list of priorities then you'll do ok but if you want to compete for silverware you're never going to have the talent coming through a youth system as the best of them will be across the water at age 16.

I'm not saying buying players is an issue, it's part of football but you seem to think you're more like a Wexford than a Drogheda.

You're not!!!

You're spending more than most LOI first division teams on wages.

The last stop on the metro is Lissenhall isn't it ??
You put a stadium there you're screwed,, as you would be if you use the academy site on Turvey avenue. The upcoming LAP for Swords should provide you with a better piece of land in a more central location. If that happens then I believe you will be successful but only through continued spending of money and buying your way to some success while you wait for the stadium to be built. As long as you have a backer there's nothing wrong with spending money.

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Lets pick these off bit by bit:
1. Lots of new players result just from the presence of an academy. In Holland for instance the football academy is as ubiquitous as the football pitch and they have produced more pros per head than anyone in Europe. Admittedly it won't take long before EPL scouts hear about this and they will probably come shopping for the 16 year olds. However, an academy bursts open opportunities for "late developers" and these usually slip through the nets. Again I'd point to the Rosenburg model.:cool:

2. You are confusing short-term and long-term and have been doing so from your first reply to my post. First of all there is no SFFC academy because it ain't been built yet. Now where is Sporting Fingal meant to get players until then? Obviously they have to be signed, and having a million quid for signings doesn't mean a million quid will be used to set the club up and get promotion within the first 2 seasons. I'd have to be an idiot to thinl the 1st team were magicked out of an academy that doesn't exist yet dontcha think?:confused: So yes, RIGHT NOW, we are like Drogheda. Soon we will be like Wexford

3. What is my knowledge of LOI teams dalliances with youth football got to do with anything. The better youth set-ups are Shelbourne and Cork City. But SFFC and WYFC will both out-perform these eventually because they are taking the proper steps and setting up an actual academy - the only way to actually raise football standards. I don't like what I've seen in terms of coach education here. The FAI regional officers have made some in-roads but there's a lot (mostly) of stubborness and orthodoxy out there.:mad:

4. Why do you think Wexford won't be successful. It takes time to move a whole population catchment upwards in terms of football standards. So they will have their successes soon enough and I'd say will get promoted inside 5 years. Good luck to them because they are doing it the right way around.

5. The Lissenhall location is getting closer and closer to town each day, Swords is expanding and you can see the last Metro stop will have a Park and Ride facility as well as whole bunch of residential development. However, I guess the location is not decided yet. John O'Briens words are revelatory insofar as no stadium exists yet in design terms.

Finally I'm not trying to goad anyone, just provoke debate about this clubs identity, as a community based club. Too many of the clubs in Dublin have messed the fans around by moving willy-nilly and allowing petty politics to not allow sufficient efforts into getting backers who would put them in good standing to purchase stadia. I can name 4 of the Dublin clubs as doing this, hopefully SFFC will not. I get to complain because I've been burned before (let's not talk of it). Also I am a graduate of UCD. I remember bleak days in Belfield park as one of 200 souls, a man and a dog. Its good to see that club at least making an effort to market themselves as a team for the area not just a team for the students.

Domestic Football needs a shake-up. If it takes for some of the clubs clinging to the crappy old ideas going out of business then so be it.
You know these ideas "our fans will follow us anywhere", "it doesn't matter where we play", "we're too poor to buy the stadium", and "ah sure the kids will be grand if they get bolicked from the sideline".

Rant over

Rosenborg play in Norway
You do know there are different rules in Norway regarding the movement of their younger players ??

For your information the last few years have not been great for Rosenborg.

I'm not knocking what you're doing, hope it works.
I just have a problem with you knocking other clubs when its clear you know little or nothing about what is going on in the LOI

I'm not knocking what you're doing, hope it works.
I just have a problem with you knocking other clubs when its clear you know little or nothing about what is going on in the LOI[/quote]


Look bud I can tell u are a serious football fan and all that it entails. However, it's not up to me to prove to you I know what I'm talking about. I just do, and if you think otherwise its up to you to prove it.

I'm going to take your comment on face-value: which is to accept you don't understand my points rather than you are REFUSING to acknowledge them. The latter is tempting because most LOI fans live in holes with 3 inches of peripheral vision and my arguments hold the mirror up to whats wrong with the LOI. When you next go on holidays (anywhere on continental Europe will do) find out where the nearest academy is and visit it. You will generally find you are welcomed in. It will help you broaden your mind to different approaches to teaching football than the striped pyjamas, pencil moustache and medicine ball approach employed by LOI clubs and their Youth set-ups. I'm perfectly within my rights to point out the poverty of coaching and player development in Ireland - and I will not be censored.

Oh, and there's ways and means around all the academy rules. Arsenal FC recently grabbed a 16 yo kid called Nortvedt out of Norway. You can be critical of Rosenburg but they are always in the CL groups, and didn't they draw away with Chelsea to usher Maurinho out of post?

Also EPL clubs would be happier to leave the players "on loan" in the LOI until they are in their 20s if player education and coaching standards were raised and that is what SFFC is trying to do too....:) time will tell.

You know, lets just say dido. Nuff said

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

Yes, you are right I think - Morton will be used (owned by the Council) for 2-3 years. The new stadium, form my understanding, will be built very close to the northern most stop of the Metro but not far from the academy at Turvey. I'm not 100% sure but I think the Councillors are yet to approve the site for the academy. I don't know how well developed the plans are for the stadium. Reading quotes from John O'Brien (club secretary) in the Indo you get the feeling that the stadium is still a work in progress. He spoke about a 10,000 all seater but then said something about this being tempered with realism about the likely size of the fanbase.

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3 years i here is the plan Turvey has a few objections from the Bird watchers and local resadents because there waiting for a foot path in donabate for 20 years, dont ask long story, the Academy will happen and will be a great thing for the fastest grown erea in Ireland. with the help from another partner were all forgeting THE NDSL. they already have an academy up and running for the last 9 years and with one of the biggest School boy leagues in Ireland from 8 to 18s the talent is already there.

Just watched the NDSL under 13 Kennedy cup squad play a frindly at 10am this morning 7 of the team have been in the ndsl Acadmey from under 9s and are made up of ndsl teams from Swords Cel, Portmarknock,Ashbourne,Clontarf,to name but a few some of these kids have great futures ahead of them and will be knocking on Sportings Acadmey in a few years.

Lads the NDSL representative teams are usually a lot inferior to the DDSL team.If you are looking for players worthy of playing EL football I think you will find them in the DDSL. Most top quality players in the NDSL have been poached or move of their own accord to the DDSL by the team they are 12 or 13.

Community opposed to soccer academy plan

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Originally Posted by Raheny Red

Community opposed to soccer academy plan

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Try to contain your glee there. Wherever the academy and stadium eventually go there will be objectors. 1000 signatures out of 9000 ppl in Donabate

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

Try to contain your glee there. Wherever the academy and stadium eventually go there will be objectors. 1000 signatures out of 9000 ppl in Donabate

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Only posted up here just incase someone would be interested in reading the article. Glee :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Raheny Red

Only posted up here just incase someone would be interested in reading the article. Glee :rolleyes:

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Enjoy it while you can.

As we sang today "Where's your mon-ey gone, [where is your money gone]":p

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Originally Posted by Santry_Goonshow

The latter is tempting because most LOI fans live in holes with 3 inches of peripheral vision and my arguments hold the mirror up to whats wrong with the LOI.

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It's comments such as the one above that I have trouble with. LOI fans are used to new fans, new managers, new directors, new owners, new clubs all saying how great things are going to be but things don't always work out in the LOI :)

Hopefully things go as you say, I'd be delighted for the LOI if they did.

I just think you have a very narrow minded view towards other clubs. Maybe you should learn a little more about the LOI's other clubs and put some of these ideas Sporting are working on into action before you go throwing stones!!

We've all had ideas at one stage or another and many clubs still do so you're not alone.

Rosenborg are not always in the Champions League!! They used to be but not over the last 4 years or so, think they only made Intertoto this time round.

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Originally Posted by drummerboy

Lads the NDSL representative teams are usually a lot inferior to the DDSL team.If you are looking for players worthy of playing EL football I think you will find them in the DDSL. Most top quality players in the NDSL have been poached or move of their own accord to the DDSL by the team they are 12 or 13.

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Fact DDSL prem sides only would be better, but with the top clubs in the DDSL from city and and south side they would not be much use to Sporting.
with the ndsl academy Rep squads are picked trought the acadmey witch gives every child a chance to be picked unlike DDSL where each year Kennedy cup teams are made up of the few top clubs.
the spotring Acadmey will be set up in the same way witch will give players in the ndsl Acadmey something to work towards.

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Originally Posted by higgins

It's comments such as the one above that I have trouble with. LOI fans are used to new fans, new managers, new directors, new owners, new clubs all saying how great things are going to be but things don't always work out in the LOI :) Hopefully things go as you say, I'd be delighted for the LOI if they did. I just think you have a very narrow minded view towards other clubs. Maybe you should learn a little more about the LOI's other clubs and put some of these ideas Sporting are working on into action before you go throwing stones!! We've all had ideas at one stage or another and many clubs still do so you're not alone. Rosenborg are not always in the Champions League!! They used to be but not over the last 4 years or so, think they only made Intertoto this time round.

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I will gallantly stop throwing stones as you say when LOI fans stop saying that SFFC cannot work, will not work, has no fansbase, is threatening the other clubs, is a waste of public money. I was trying to point out facts:
1. That its going to be a community based club - Fingal might be a shakey "identity" for people but it could grow into something big
2. That it will have a supply of players and help junior football leagues thru the academy and these players getting thru will re-inforce the academy
3. That it will attract a big amount of fans with a thrist for soccer that was never quenched by other clubs
4. That it has the potential (alng with Wexford) to create sustainable clubs

After all Darwin said the birds with the short beak genes had to die off if the flock moved to the mudflats. What domestic soccer needs is a nice cold snap and the old and infirm will have to reform or die off. Its evolution man. You might not like the message but at least engage with the facts that LOI soccer has been deficient and needs a KUTA

What are the people behind the scenes expecting, attendance wise, each fortnight?

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Originally Posted by Raheny Red

What are the people behind the scenes expecting, attendance wise, each fortnight?

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Its much too early to say. There's a fair crowd coming from around Santry, a lot of people leave walking to local housing estates. There's a bunch of people from Blanchardstown. The Ultras come from Rivervalley.

The club will only stabilise when the move to Swords happens. being at the end of a Metro stop will be a boon, especially if Metro West allows the Blanch ranks to grow.

One from Rush. :D