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Have a really good feeling about this, really!
if you compare our squad to the 2002 squad then I'd have to say - the crucial center midfield aside- We're stronger now than we were then. with a manager like Trapattoni we can really go places, now I wonder if any of the lads at the Juve or Milan Academies have Irish Grannies?
Completely disagree. Of the players still around from 2002, Robbie Keane, Given, Duff, Dunne, only Dunne is playing better now than he was in 2002 for Ireland. Keane and Duff were in much better form then - especially Keane.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
And there's really no comparison of the rest of the team - Gary Kelly vs Stephen Kelly = no contest. Gary Kelly was excellent going forward and rock solid at the back. Stephen has no positional sense.
Staunton, Breen, Cunningham and Dunne vs Dunne, O'Shea, McShane and ??? = no contest. After a bit of bedding in, Staunton turned into a wonderful reader of the game at centre half and formed a formidable partnership with Breen. And with Cunningham and Dunne to step in, there can be no comparison with todays Dunne and O'Shea/McShane.
Finnan, McAteer, S. Reid, Kilbane and Duff at the top of his game were the options on the wings in 2002. An up and coming McGeady, an out of form Duff and Kilbane and Hunt are the options now. I'd choose the 2002 class every time
And Quinn and Keane were up front for most of the qualifying campaign (I know Duff played up front too). Quinn was the finished article and the partnership with Keane was electric. Doyle and todays out of sorts Keane (for Ireland) just haven't clicked.
Alot of work to do with the class of 2008
Agree the Defence is a little suspect. But think McGeedy,, Hunt, Ireland, A Reid, S Reid
Doyle, Are Deffo stronger than, Holland, Kinsella, Kilbane, McAteer, Harte, Morrison were in the run up to the 2002 qualifiers, whilst I've no doubt that some if not all of the 2002 squad hit great form at the WC they certainly did not look like world beaters in 2000 at the start of the campaign. Roy Keane aside I think Gio will inherit a vastly superior squad than the one McCarthy did
plus I've also got a feeling that Steve Finnan will come back
I'd be expecting at least Finnan and Ireland to come back. Finnan will see the potential Trap brings and he'll recognise the proper professional approach that Trap should be bringing. I'm sure he got sick of being messed about by poor, inexperienced managers at anywhere near this level like Kerr and Staunton.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Finnan will want to come back for a last crack at international football.
As for Ireland, surely if he has any sense he'll see he has a great, long future at international level with a great manager.
I'd have my doubts about him prising Andy O' Brien back, his hole retirement was just plain strange:confused: Would like to know more there, it's obvious it was down to Stan' exile but the manner in which he conducted himself was bemusing.
Anyway bring on Trap 9 out of 9 points this year:D
But please God not another Bertie Vogts:eek:
You can't just discount Roy Keane for arguments sake. Thats like saying France would have never won the World Cup in 1998 without Zidane. It's a moot point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Anyway, how could say a central midfield with 2 out of Ireland and the two Reids would be superior to Holland and Kinsella? We haven't seen S. Reid play CM with either of them so there's no evidence they'd work as a pair. Ireland has never convinced in CM either while Holland and Kinsella were consistently solid without being spectacular.
Also, you can't compare Doyle with Morrison as Morrison was only a squad member while Doyle's a starter. Doyle vs Quinn - Quinn was such an intelligent player i don't think there's many that compare to him. Without him, Keane would have never flourished
I'm not discounting Roy Keane for argument sake, I'm merely saying that other than RK(whom IMO was by far and away the best player of that era and possibly ever)Quote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
the 2008 squad compares favorably to the 2000(when Qualifiers for WC2002 Started) squad
I disagree with your estimation of Quinn too I think by 2002 Quinn was passed his best and was really only any use at getting into awkward positions and making thing's uncomfortable for the opposition, I think Doyle has the ability to do this and so much more
back then we had duff wasted up front with keane. now we have doyle and keane - who will form a good partnership once they have a proper manager. duff has competiton for his left sided place. which we thought would be his for the taking for the next ten years. and we have proper attacting central midfielders (reid and ireland) rather than playing holland and kinsella.Quote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
the defense now is joke though
Just wondering what peoples feelings on this are
IMO we've better quality throughout most of the squad now than when the Qualifiers started back in 2000 on our way to WC2002
The obvious weaker components are the absence of a replacement for Roy Keane and a defence that looks a bit dodgy at times but, Overall I think Trapattoni will inherit a better squad than what Mick McCarthy started with
Traps not even been appointed yet! We really need to rein things in a bit.
Ceratian areas of todays squad may be stronger than the class of 02 but overall i think 2002 team was far and away a better outfit. You just cant quantify how important the ability and aura of keane was to that team back in '02. I believe even in his absence he was crucial to irelands progression at wc2002.
And what is this feeling that Finnan will come back based on?Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Finnan isn't coming back so ye might as well get used to it and It also seems doubtful Ireland is coming back.
As for Ireland 2008>2002 I highly disagree, 2002 was better than 2008 in every position except for Dunne, but the back 4 overall was a lot better in 2002, If Keane can transfer his club form to international form then maybe you could argue 2008 is better than 2002 in 2 positions but I'd still pick the 2002 squad anyday.
Whatever about individuals and arguably 2002 team had stronger individuals, in 2002 we had a good team where the sum of the parts were superior to the individuals involved, the same cannot be said about the current crop of players - we havent played together as a well drilled organised team in a long time.
I would expect Trapattoni to make that priority no1Quote:
Originally Posted by elroy
Keane was nowhere near the player he is now 5 years ago. It's all well and good pointing to his international form but there's a reason a top manager is being appointed.Quote:
Originally Posted by lionelhutz
Kilbane - Holland - Kinsella - Finnan/McAteer
I think our current full strength midfield is on a different level to that personally. It was a very solid midfield but we've a lot more class now in Reid, Reid, Ireland, McGeady and Duff.
We're stronger up front.
Given is Given.
The defence is weaker now but Richard Dunne is still a lot better than any centre half we had in 2002. Ian Harte had a poor tournament at left back.
Never mind Keane - we haven't even replaced Kinsella properly yet.Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
the lure of working under a world class manager and getting to 1 more world cup maybe with a chance of really competing at itQuote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
What the hell are you basing this on?Quote:
It also seems doubtful Ireland is coming back.
Don Givens didn't call him up for Brazil because he expected the Player to contact him to declare his availability. This was Givens being a P***k that's all
That midfield only looks stronger on paper.Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
Most of our problems over that last 5 years have stemmed from sub-standard performances from midfield.
Theres undoubted ability there but its not been harnassed, organised or delivered upon.
That's all we have to go on. For once they're all fit. Let's hope they can stay fit. I don't think there'd be a problem if one of the midfielders is injured though. It's Dunne that is vital.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
btw, have Steven and Andy Reid ever played in the same team?
That's what I'm getting at. Does Trapatoni have better raw materials than McCarthy had at the start of the qualifiers? if we do then I reckon Trap can surpass anything achieved by McCarthy or indeed Jack when it comes to harnessing this raw abilityQuote:
Originally Posted by Wolfie
Twice, according to soccerscene.ie:Quote:
Originally Posted by eirebhoy
VS Canada in November of 2003 (Andy Reid's debut): http://www.soccerscene.ie/sssenior/m...ils.php?id=395
VS Italy in August of 2005: http://www.soccerscene.ie/sssenior/m...ils.php?id=413
In both cases, Andy Reid was a winger, not in central midfield
If he really was motivated by competing for his country at another WC then why didn't he wait until after the new manager had been announced before retiring? How would he know the next manager would be incompetent or play him out of position? his decision to retire before the new manager was announced to me showed he didn't care who the next manager wasQuote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
Its based on more than just a feeling, just look at his history, the Givens situations is just the latest bit of drama in the Stephen Ireland soap opera, if he wanted to play for Ireland then why did Ireland refuse to accept Dunne's offer to contact the FAI on his behalf?Quote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
There are some very talented individuals in this current crop. Keane has two excellent seasons with spurs, albeit playing with berbatov. Kevin Doyle, again had an unbelievalble year last year. Struggled a bit this year. Duff undoubtable has the talent to be classed as World Class. He does need to stay injury free and possibly get out of the Toon. A fit Andy Reid if he can be accomodated has the class of a Molby.
Whats lacking is a capable manager, Staunton certainly wasnt this. Trap (provding he is the next manager) ticks most if not all the boxes required to be a top. top class manager who will demand and recieve the respect of players and fans alike.
This is a vital period for us, if we dont qualify for South Africa it could be a very long time before we qualify for a international tournament again.
I wasn't aware of that! still I would hope if he's called up to the the squad he'll turn up. I've been through a similar experience to him this year (in that my partner had a mis-carriage and missed quite a bit of time off work) so I know how difficult it is to deal with something like that, I really think he'll come back and play a BIG role under GioQuote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
Carr retired before Staunton was appointed and then came back so there is a precedent. If Finnan was so resolute on retiring, why did he leave it until 2 months after the qualifying campaign was over? The points you are making are just speculation; perhaps you are correct in your assumption but you may not be.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
I think our players have enough quality to be able to succeed if harnessed correctly but we have to compare apples with apples.
With all due respect to all the managers involved from McCarthys tenure to the present day, we needed two things. One was a game plan and secondly and probably more importantly, is a squad of players who understand and buy into that game plan and understand their role is in its success. Both Kerr and Staunton had one or both of these for only a very short space in time(The opening game in Stans case). Sadly since McCarthys departure, we havent had a manger who was able to combine both of those with these players.
If Trapattoni can get this back in the squad, then we can compare but not until then.
The fact that he waited 2 months doesn't really mean anything since there were no games to be played, in Carrs case I felt his retirement was more down to the toll all his injuries have taken on him and thought that he could extend his club career by retiring, I don't think Finnan is as likely to reconsider, he just didn't seem committed to me in the last campaign, his injury where he missed Irelands crucial double header was minor and was illustrated by the fact that he played a full 90 minutes for Liverpool less than 3 days later. I hope I'm wrong and Finnan has a change of heart but I wouldn't get my hopes up just because Carr came out of retirement once, I'd be willing to give anyone 10/1 odds on him returning, any takers?Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurphyc
The whole Slovakia and Czech Republic injury thing was IMO blown out of proportion. Nobody knows how badly injured he was, and the fact that he played for Liverpool the next week doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't badly injured the week before. If he wasn't bothered about playing those two games then why did he turn up for international duty the month before for a friendl? He might not come back but I personally believe the reason he retired was because he saw the shambles of the last set up for what it was and figured that because the FAI were taking so long to make an announcement that things wouldn't necessarily improve. I know that this is also speculating, but it's just my personal take on it. With Trapattoni looking likely to get the reins if my assumption is correct then I think there is a decent chance he will come back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
true he will inherit a better squad than mick did - but mick inherited an ageing squad from charlton and turned it into the 2002 team and squadQuote:
Originally Posted by Block G Raptor
i think the 2002 team and squad was a better - agree with lionelhutz's points
GIO has inherited a lot of potential but only time will tell on whether they can reach the levels of 2002
At the moment the currect team is nowhere near the level of 2002. But with the manager we had in charge for the last campaign we're actually a lot better off than we could be. There's far more potential in this team than the 2002 one indivually but collectively there's still a lot of work to be done.
The people who say that we've got a poor team and 3rd is the best that we'll manage; there's no doubt that even with Trapattoni in charge it's going to be a very difficult group to get out of but so was the 2006 group and we almost did that with IMO and inferior squad and an inferior manager (no disrespect to Kerr but Trap is another level). If the last qualification campaign was down to having poor players then why did we struggle to beat San Marino. Irrespective of who our playing staff were that game should have been wrapped up long before the 94th minute.
The midfield and attack are undoubtedly better IMO. Quinn couldn't last 90 minutes by the time the last World Cup came around and now we have an abundance of strikers, unlike back then. The creativity in this midfield is far superior and if we can get the players to work as hard and be as well organised as in 2002, then it will easily be better than the 2002 crop. As was said previously the defence is the only worry. If we get Andy O'Brien back then he's in a similar mould to most of our central defenders in the last World Cup and in the new Richard Dunne we have someone who is far, far superior to any defenders in that squad.
The main cause for concern for Trapattoni is the left back berth. There are no natural left backs who are anywhere near ready for international level for us. If O'Halloran can start getting games then maybe this can be solved. If not, then that is a major worry for us until someone breaks through.
No, he had decided on retiring a long time back before the end of the last campaign, he was just biding the announcement for the right time - thats not to say he wont come back though, I dont have a clue about that.Quote:
The whole Slovakia and Czech Republic injury thing was IMO blown out of proportion. Nobody knows how badly injured he was, and the fact that he played for Liverpool the next week doesn't necessarily mean he wasn't badly injured the week before. If he wasn't bothered about playing those two games then why did he turn up for international duty the month before for a friendl? He might not come back but I personally believe the reason he retired was because he saw the shambles of the last set up for what it was and figured that because the FAI were taking so long to make an announcement that things wouldn't necessarily improve. I know that this is also speculating, but it's just my personal take on it. With Trapattoni looking likely to get the reins if my assumption is correct then I think there is a decent chance he will come back.
But again, isn't this just media speculation? I'm not saying that it isn't true, just that we can't know for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
But it wasn't a week, it was less than 3 days from the Czech game to the Liverpool game and its unlikely a 30 year old can go from being a cert to miss a game to being able to play a full 90 minutes less the 3 days later, that isn't blown things out of proportion, its pretty resonable to assume IMO that if he was capable of playing for Liverpool so soon after that he could have at least made the trip even if he was a doubt. Its quite possible the shambles of the last campaign contributed to his decision but the fact that he annonced his decision before new manager was even in place suggests to me that he has no intention of reconsideringQuote:
Originally Posted by jmurphyc
If the game was in Ireland then maybe you might be right but considering that it was in the Czech Republic then what would have been the point in him making the trip out on a plane when he would be best served recovering at his club? He never had a history of pulling out of squads before to serve his club and he didn't do it afterwards, so why do it then? Staunton and Liverpool's medical staff continued to monitor the injury each day and he was regarded as being close to fitness for the Czech Republic match (in fact Richard Dunne said he would be fit on time) so I don't think he figured it wasn't worth it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbo
No. In 2002 we had a few leaders on the park.
Would I trade our new improved Richie Dunne for Breen, Cunningham and Staunton from '02? YES! One central defender can't possibly be better than three competent ones.
Are people still so hung up on RMK's non participation in '02 that they won't give Holland and Kinsella their fair due? The Reid twins are very average players and are both sicknotes. Kinsella and Holland were great together at the tournament in Korea/Japan.
i would agree that kinsella and holland deserve more credit than they have been givenQuote:
Originally Posted by danonion
I must disagree with your opinion on our players more than the people on here with a bias against us. :D Kinsella deserves credit but I wasn't Matt Holland's biggest fan. I don't think Kinsella and Holland could be classed as above average by anyones standards anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by danonion
A.Reid for me would be in the elite bracket of passers in the premiership. I rate him that highly. He reads the game so well too. He struggled when he got closed down quickly against Cyprus though. If he can get used to that he'll be superb but give him space and his passing is an absolute joy.
no i said this on the website around the time of the cyprus game i think, that he was going to retire.Quote:
Originally Posted by jmurphyc
Okay. I think I can remember you saying that now that I think about it. Hopefully he was retiring due to the shambles of the last campaign and re-evaluates his opinions after seeing that we've now got a potentially excellent manager in charge.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
International football is at least as much about organisation as it is about having good players. Trap can organise. That is a fact. If the Irish players aren't too thick, unwilling or incapable of doing what they're told by one of modern football's greatest coaches, things will go well.
I'm actually just watching Spain v Ireland again tonight. Have a look at this clip of Kilbane and Keane both skinning Puyol (Kilbane also puts another guy on his arse):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YciOwBodD44
And btw, Puyol regularly made a fool of himself at that age (he still does the odd time). Cut Paul McShane some slack. Look past the dodgy barnet and style of play and he's a good reader of the game imo.