Connolly, Ireland, McCann, Garvan and a few others. Must be close to a starting eleven at this stage!
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Connolly, Ireland, McCann, Garvan and a few others. Must be close to a starting eleven at this stage!
McCann got the hump because he wasn't in the starting 11.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
How many times has he turned up for green shirt over the past six years when selected in the squads?
What happened St Ledger or did he fall out with himself?
Connolly captains the side as he fell out at senior level.
And the answer is?Quote:
Originally Posted by soccerc
It always struck me as odd that he rarely played at any underage level, but I assumed he wasn't in the squads either.
Anthony Stokes of course is another.
Stokes failed to turn up, in time for the bus, for a Sunderland away match. Therefore he has a track record. With respect it cannot always be the manager's fault in these situations. Givens is supposed to be a disciplinarian. Most people under 25 don't know the meaning of the word! Givens and his Under 21 management team got a better performance out of the seniors at the Wales game, than Steve Staunton and his team were able to manage in the previous four performances. However some age old problems remained. Inability to retain a lead, inability to concentrate for 90 minutes and inability to judge where to pull kick and hack your opponent. Paul do it on half way lad ok? :D
Givens said it as it is with S.Ireland. if he picks up the phone and says he's available then he is back in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
S.Ireland is fine and dandy to play for Man City but has decided, for whatever reason, that he won't play for his country. he can p1ss off and grow up as far as i am concerned!!
S.Ireland has made his bed and all Givens has said is he can sleep in it untill he decides he wants to come back. Definately not Givens fault. As for McCann he sounds like a t0sser who doesn't want to play for his country so we are better off without people like this imo.
The sooner that these so-called pro's realise what an honour it is to play for their country the better. management cannot keep pandering to them. a line has to be drawn in the sand.
I don't think it was Given that Garvan fell out with either in fairness to him.
Anyway, despite the U21s' atrocious competitive record I can't really complain with Givens' public utterings about the attitudes of our players and the likes of Carr retiring.
how/why did he fall out with connolly???
all i can think of was when he wasn't selected for the original squad for the greece friendly, when called up after withdrawals connolly replied that not alone should he not be 4th choice he should be first choice irish striker!!!!!:eek: then he refused to travel!!!
stokes never turned up for the team going away to a match and there was no contact made with Givens. he rang the player who was back in dublin at his family home. fair enough RK has said subsequently that it was his/sunderlands fault. Givens accepted that and he was straight back in.
givens managment record with ireland is terrible, but i personally think he has been right more than wrong in these so-called 'fall-outs'. as was said above these 'pro's' feel they can do what they want when they want. they need to have discipline, not morons fawning over them and accepting non-commitment and no-shows as par for the course!!
Some players are prima donnas. Others have highly inflated opinions of themselves and their abilities, which despite numerous proofs put before them, that they do not match up, they remain unconvinced. I wish at times I was that self-delusional . I could have ruled the world :D
Keith Foy, theres another.
Can’t remember the details but again straight to the press with that one as Givens always does.
Not saying Foy was ever a saint but you keep problems like that behind closed doors.
With his symbolic results record and inability to properly discipline players all I can say is
Don Givens, OUT OUT OUT!
i think the whole point of this thread is that he is not afraid to displine players.Quote:
Originally Posted by pateen
agree on the results though totally SYMBOLIC :D
Richie Foran, hardly surprisingly fell out with Givens. Broke a curfew or something.
The problem I have with Givens, other than his results, is the fact all these incidents seem to make their way into the papers. This may not be his fault, but it does seem to me that he runs to the press after each incident.
drummerboy
Sometimes public embarrassment is the only way to put manners on these young pups. Besides there are so many leaks at every level of society in Ireland, Don is the one putting the story out, rather than having to indulge in damage control exercises later on when a story with a different slant is leaked to the media.
Look at what happened when the seniors tried to spin a line to protect Stephen Ireland when he lied repeatedly about his circumstances. If he had come clean initially they could have put up an agreed line. At the end of the day Ireland's antics made Staunton , Delaney and the FAI PR department look like fools. Which to be fair on that occasion wasn't totally their fault, FOR ONCE. And a highly paid professional player cost the FAI 70,000 which was the cost of hiring the plane to get him home for his granny's non-existant funerals. Stephen Ireland should repay the FAI in full before he ever dons a green shirt again.
Have never been the greatest fan of Givens' management but in fairness to him he seems like a straight up kinda guy with no apparant agenda other than managing his country.
Sounds like there was a hint of the prima-donna's about McCann which, if true, is utterly ridiculous...just because he plays first-team football for the mighty Burnley doesn't mean he has the divine right to start for his country even though some of us (including me :o) think that he should...
McCann deserves a kick in the arse for his behaviour and maybe letting the media know about it is the way to do it...Fair play to ya Don!
Givens for Ireland!!! :eek: :D
Can't be just coincidence that so many player's have a problem with Givens. Must be something about his management style. I have major problems with his attitude to the progression of home based players, but ultimately, there's no reason to bring in untangibles - his record speaks for itself...
do ye think keane set the ball rolling, all these lads looking up to him when growing up and then they take the same attitude. I'd put Stuts house ( its worth a lot more than mine and thats how confidend I am ) on it to be honest.
Well he has been doing the sulky boy act the last few years, not liking Kerr because he made them work too hard, not liking the fans because they wanted them to win etc - bound to filter through the underage teams when they see a senior player get away with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by paul_oshea
Whatever the situation about Givens it is pretty clear that some of our bright young things do not feel it is a major honour to represent your country and I hate it.
Methinks paul_oshea may have been referring to a different Keane! :DQuote:
Originally Posted by Macy
I really think you're being too critical on the players here.
McCann has every right to question the selected team if he is playing at a much higher level than his teammates at club level.
By the same token, Givens should justify his selection policy. In this case being loyal to the players who have been in the squad longer is pretty much the only justification (and it's fair, so long as the team is performing).
So if your reasons are loyalty to the other players, tell McCann that, and say that if he's patient, he'll make his way into the team when injuries or poor performances occur.
If he can't take that justification, you tell the media that and see what happens.
But from Givens quotations there, McCann questioned the selection and Givens sent him packing right away.
Antagonism is not the answer, you MUST have good man management skills to succeed at the top level.
It's good to have a mean side, but if you don't have a human one you'll fail to get the best of every player.
Look at Wenger, look at Eriksson, these are managers who know how to treat players. These managers treat their talented players with the respect they deserve and get it back in turn.
Even look at Ferguson, sure he can stamp the boot down if he wants, but he's an excellent man-manager for the most part: look at the way he handled the Rooney and Ronaldo situation after the World Cup.
He dealt with it sensibly and I'm sure took both of them aside or talked to them together and worked it out.
The age of the disciplinarian is gone.
According to Givens, McCann said it was a waste of time for him to be in the Irish squad - ie to represent his country is a waste of time. If he said that Givens was right to send him home. This came 2 hours prior to kick-off - Givens hardly has time to sit down and to give McCann a shoulder to cry on and talk it through. He gets a limited amount of time to work with players and if a player doesn't want to represent his country, there's no point wasting the time available on the player as there are plenty of others that would take his place in the squad at the drop of a hat. Whether Givens is the correct man for the U21 position is irrelevant in this case as he was 100% right in sending McCann home.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
An important point to remember is that Wenger, Eriksson and the rest of club managers have the carrot of money to motivate players. Givens doesn't. I doubt McCann would behave the same way at his club side.
McCann has no rights until he earns them. All he has done so far is earn the right to be called up to the Irish squad.Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
The standards that Givens applies are no different to what Brady has at the Arsenal acadamy.Quote:
Look at Wenger, look at Eriksson, these are managers who know how to treat players
You play a hard line with millionaire kids or soon to be millionaires and you're going to lose a lot of quality players.
You can command respect with these players without antagonizing them, but Givens just doesn't have the tact for that, and neither do a lot of you.
I'm not talking about kissing anyone's ass, I'm just talking about treating them like adults.
If they have a problem with being excluded from a team, explain to them why, don't send them packing at the first sign of dissent.
As for the issue of money, if that was the issue with a player, I'd sit him down and go over all the examples of underage players performing well at international level and then shortly getting a move to a bigger club.
In any event I don't think McCann was saying it was a waste of time for him to represent Ireland, I think he was saying it was a waste of time for him to come over just to sit on the bench.
Again, I'm not saying McCann should start, but if he is being benched he should be explained why (i.e. loyalty to players in previous squads).
This rash confrontational attitude will get you nowhere with people who are used to being worshipped.
These guys make more money than their parents, date beautiful women, eat in the best restaurants and are treated like VIPs wherever they go.
You start treating them like they're some snot nosed kid and you're going to get nowhere.
I'm not saying there's no time to be harsh, but you'd think Givens could calm him down instead of send him packing. Surely McCann isn't that emotional?
Lucky for Paul McGrath he is not playing now. Givens would have sent him packing. Givens running to the media is the laughable part of his falling outs. Shows me a manager who can't manage. His record is woeful. He should be first out the door when the new manager comes in.
Have to agree with above post. Its a pity this happened because I really thought the team played very well. They knocked the ball around with ease after a dodgy start. Quigley had a great game. O'Cearuill played a lot better than Friday. The rest of them acquitted themselves well without being outstanding.
This is exactly it. Real managers deal with their problems in house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
With McGrath the full extent of his problems were never known at the time they happened because his managers covered up things and made excuses for him.
Look at the situation with the sweatbands- the man had just tried to kill himself so they gave him some sweatbands for his wrists so the scars wouldn't show instead of going to the media and talking about a big tragedy- Stan could have learned a thing or two about that with Steven Ireland (why get into the granny thing? Just say he had to leave for personal reasons).
Givens is too eager to tell 'his side of the story' when things like this happen. I'm more concerned with that. It's genereally an indication in any argument that they need a 3rd party to validate his words or action.
Managers are a different culture now and I don't think Givens has changed with the times. The days of CLoughie and "do as I say without question" and "if you're not in the first 11 or 16 you're ignored" are long gone. There's a huge difference between a disciplinarian, and a "put up and shut up" manager.
In this case, as sald already in an earlier reply, omisions should be accounted for... Whether tactical reason, age, experience, etc. Only a few minutes is all it should take. It sounds like there was little or no discussion on the issue. Who's fault is debatable but there has to be an outlet or medium for the players to put a constructive argument, in private if need be......( It's hardly a case where Given was afraid to change a winning side now is it???)
Communication is key. I'm a firm beleiver that the next Ireland managers first squad should have AT LEAST 30 odd players in it so the 'Law of the Land' is laid out, and every squad thereafter, those players on the peripheral contacted in some form or other. There were incidents in under the last two managers were the like of Ian Harte, Richie Dunne and Steven Reid (iirc) were ommited and were baffled to the point of grumblings in the media due to no contact from the manager. A couple of 5 or ten minuted phone calls is all it takes. Time easily afforded to international mangers. Even if the answer is not what they want to hear, it's alot better than 'radio silence'..
Agreed!!Quote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
Givens had to send the chap home - he was left with no choice.
As for "running to the media" - there's obviously going to be questions about why a player named for the bench isn't there. Yeah Givens could of made up some story about his grandmother or something like that but if the truth came out further down the line, people would be up in arms at Givens for telling lies.
The fact of the matter is that McCann (apparently) said it was a waste of time playing for his country. How this is comparable with Paul mcGrath I do not know.
McCann didn't say it was a waste of time playing for his country- he said it was a waste of time sitting on the bench for his country.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
It's obvious to me that McCann wants to play, and Givens should have dealt with the situation more maturely and sat him down and had a chat with him.
McGrath was brought up because in many ways he was a "problem player."
Sure he was a nice guy, but you needed to give him a little extra attention to get the best of him because of his various personal issues.
[QUOTE=irishfan86;820180]This is exactly it. Real managers deal with their problems in house.
With McGrath the full extent of his problems were never known at the time they happened because his managers covered up things and made excuses for him.
Look at the situation with the sweatbands- the man had just tried to kill himself so they gave him some sweatbands for his wrists so the scars wouldn't show instead of going to the media and talking about a big tragedy- Stan could have learned a thing or two about that with Steven Ireland (why get into the granny thing? Just say he had to leave for personal reasons).[QUOTE]
Hardly similar situations, much as Stan was a bufoon when it came to management, he could only go with what Stephen Ireland told him which was that his Gran had died. It was nearly a week later the truth (?) came out.
We only have Givens side of the story as reported in the press. So we don't know what happened until we hear McCann's side of the story and then must decide who we believe. Not comparable with Paul mcGrath who turned up drunk for a qualifying game against Turkey. But I can understand why he did what he did. If Givens is such as servant for Ireland why has'nt he spoken out about the FAI shambles through the years? The fact that they are paying his wages might have something to do with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Extract from rte.ie http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/2007/...eland_u21.htmlQuote:
Originally Posted by irishfan86
McCann sent home from Ireland game
"The background was that Chris McCann came to me at 5.15pm and said he didn't want to be in the squad tonight. It was a waste of time him being here,' explained Givens.
He travelled to Montenegro and did not take part. He wasn't in the starting line-up tonight and he didn't want to be in the squad. I said to him 'have a think about it because it is obviously going to affect your future.
He said that he didn't want to be in so I said to pack his things and go"
Yes I know.Quote:
Originally Posted by Noelys Guitar
IMO Given problem is that he comes out publicly lambasting U21 players & then after his rant will say it is not a big issue. :rolleyes:
Still reporting Givens words as fact!Quote:
Originally Posted by ifk101
Me_Thinks you are right ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Drumcondra 69er
But the way Macy put it, id agree with that one too!!! To a lesser extent mind :)
Thats Givens' side, do you want me to post Connolly's or should I just assume that your mind is already made up? :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by galwayhoop
It would be hard for anyone (players included) to question Givens team selection if he had a history of getting good results and had earned the respect that stemmed from this.
Unfortunately the results have been appalling at U21 level so I'd imagine the players feel justified in questioning his management to a degree however right or wrong that may be.
His team selections have been unbelievably bad and considering how frustrated many on here have felt about the exclusion of Garvan and McCann over the years you can only imagine how the players themselves feel. Take into account these are possibly the only two players in the squad who are playing in the Championship or higher who arre always in their team's starting 11 and their omissions become all the more baffling.
Givens out.