Just wondering if anyone knows what routes are affected
oh yeah discuss it too if you like
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Just wondering if anyone knows what routes are affected
oh yeah discuss it too if you like
The buses seem to be running as normal past Belfield, I don't know it that helps you.
Full list in the Herald AM if you can find one, but to be honest it wasn't much of a strike. The 37 was meant to be badly affected, but when I rang Dublin Bus they told me that only 2 of the usual 8 buses that leave town for Castleknock between 5 and 6 were off, the rest were running as normal
Dublin Bus web site has routes affected.
Insane dispute that probably only affects a hand full of drivers. Other depots seem to be operating under these terms without any problems already. Ridiculous that a driver would drive all the way out to the depot just to take lunch break.
Can't see this being solved quickly as the Labour Court & Labour Relations Commission have already decided in favour of Dublin Bus.
It was and is if you rely on the 13 or 4 to get to town everyday. :mad:Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Not really up on all the issues (and there will be more as what the Management and Media are concentrating on), but seems to me a start would be Dublin Bus Management allowing the same amount of time as how long their timetable reckons it takes to get in and out of town!
btw, there wouldn't be any strike if the company hadn't insisted on the introduction of the new policies on Monday and suspended drivers. Labour Court and LRC are not binding (indeed LRC is level below the Labour Court in the IR process) - unions have to put it to their members to either accept or reject. And it's not beyond semi state and state companies to reject them either when it suits.
From what I heard on the radio, they have changed from an hour lunch break, with 45minutes travelling in and out to the depot to a 2.5 hour break in one of the city centre depots, i.e. same amount of time in total. One of the drivers was complaining that there's 'only so much shopping you can do', so it seems they would rather spend another 90 minutes of their day in traffic rather than a longer lunch break. :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
On the issue, though, of starting your day's work out in the depot by the airport, and finishing in the city centre I have to agree with the drivers. Surely you should start and finish in the same place.
You could not run a bus service like that. I presume it is a bit of luck of the draw but traveling out to the depot (7 miles) & back into town again is a massive waste of time. AFAIK the drivers who start at the depot are allowed time at the end of their shift to get back to the depot so they not doing on their own time. If this system is good enough for the other depots why can't it be implemented at Harrison? Maybe the drivers need some time off to get in some early Christmas shopping.Quote:
Originally Posted by noby
Why is it that management & staff are unable to implement even the most minimal change without big disputes? :rolleyes:
To me it looks like a case of people who don't like each other refusing to agree on anything.
The drivers have signed a contract saying that they'll start or finish in town if required so they are obliged to operate the routes but if some of the timetables introduce an unreasonable amount of hassle, like having to travel from town to the depot when the buses aren't running some type of allowance should be made.
It seems to me that this could be sorted out very easily if the people involved were motivated to do so.
But it takes an hour in and out to eden quay as per Dublin Bus Timetables (and we know how reliable that can be with Dublin traffic).Quote:
Originally Posted by noby
That may be, I have no idea (although if it takes an hour I guess you'd do it in 45 minutes without any stops); but the drivers were happy with that situation, it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
From listening to (the driver's side on) the radio the other morning I got the impression that this isn't the case. Is this true?Quote:
AFAIK the drivers who start at the depot are allowed time at the end of their shift to get back to the depot so they not doing on their own time.
Some nasty traffic on route into the City today (Blanchardstown traffic route) although in Dublin it is difficult to know if bus strike causing this. Took me double time as normal to drive to work today. Think I noticed more bikes yesterday but not a scientific survey.
This is how it was explained to me by a co-worker whose wife works for Dublin Bus. So my source is really no more authorative than that but, any way...
A few years ago the rule that a shift starts and finishes in the city centre was brought in to many routes but the Harristown depot resitsted it, and after going through differant rounds of mediation an agreement was reached.
It was agreed that the existing work practices were to be maintained on existing routes and new routes and new drivers coming into the depot would have to conform to the new working arrangements.
Thus the compromise was reached that the drivers kept what they wanted and the company phased in what they wanted over time.
In a nutshell the dispute is over the company changing existing routes, such as adding two stops to them, renaming them (from 40 to 40a for example) and insisting that the new work practices are to apply.
While I don't believe that the drivers should be dicked around in such an underhand way the fact that they were willing to sell their future colleagues down the line to work practices they wouldn't accept for themselves lowers the amount of sympathy I have for them.
I was reserving some judgement on this until I knew the details.
Reading today in the IT that the drivers are already allowed 45 minutes each way to make to & from the depot & city centre. Unions were claiming this is not enough but they have already agreed to this! I could not believe what I was reading but the Unions suggested this be increased to 50 minutes. Yes a total of 10 minutes per day!!! BTW the Labour Court rejected the suggestion.
If this is true the management & unions should be sacked for gross misconduct.
:rolleyes:
A lot of the drivers at Harristown live out in places like Cavan, Drogheda and Dundalk so having to travel into the City centre to start your shift is a big difference from having to drive to Harristown.
No doubt there were deported there against their will by "The Man" because they were union bus drivers, while all the private sector workers had the best houses in Dublin set aside for them...Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
Public sector workers in this country being singled out for special oppression and misery...yes that's it!
The reason why this strike happened is simply tradition. You so much as change the brand of coffee in a CIE union tearoom and instantly there is "industrial unrest", "disturbance money", "LARKIN!!!!" etc etc etc...
Benchmarking and Partnership is really paying off for us private sector tax payers isn't it!
What was it one of these Dublin Bus parasitic greedy vermin said while standing around a photogenic bonfire (to enforce their "hardship and suffering" to the public) at Harristown...oh yeah "it's all about delivering quality public transport"...
They are off their box in the CIE unions - completely out of control.
As a strong believer in Trade Unions, and a practising public servant, I couldn't agree moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good
I agree with him too. Strikes like this undermine public support for strikes over real issues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dodge
My view on all industrial disputes is that I dont have a view. THe reason for this is, that the media never covers the story fairly and is always biased against the Union for some reason. THis is across the board in nearly all media outlets. Also as a society we are not a society of consumers rather than producers and solidarity is amongst consumers rather than producers. In this case I do not know the ins and outs of it and in many idustrial disputes a subtle leaving out of the facts or adding other issues in can cloud someones viewpoint.
From knowing how badly the media report issues from the sector I work in, I would not trust anytihng that is in the papers on these issues and the Unions Reps are very bad at getting their point across and have terrible PR most of the time.
This is very true. The recent example was the supposed "light bulb" issue in the HSE. It was clear as soon as you dug down that it wasn't about that, but even today when surely everyone must be aware that there was more to it the media reporting it as "the row about changing light bulbs".Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I don't think the wider population really understands Industrial Relations or it's processes, and just how many disputes (particularly in the public sector) are about management not following agreed procedures when making changes. If the procedures need to be changed that can be addressed through negotiation.
Unions are not opposed to change - if they were, most wouldn't have recommended the national pay agreements of which the main consessions have been about change in the public sector with the pay off for the private sector worker (such as increased labour inspectorate v outsourcing*). (The failure to implement changes or to do so in a cack handed manner is the fault of the Government not the Unions).
*the one proviso in that was that there had to be an economic case for outsourcing, which is why there hasn't been much! Turns out it isn't cheaper in most cases
PR battle is most definitely being lost. I'm not sure what can be done to change that. Nearly every media outlet has a right wing bias - indeed with the largest group in the country it's a bloody tradition!Quote:
Originally Posted by NeilMcD
I fail to see how that is relevant. Their place of work in bus depot but because some drivers start the shift in the City centre they get paid to traveling time into the City.Quote:
Originally Posted by BohsPartisan
I don't think anything served by saying all public sector unions like CIE ones but if it is true they already get paid traveling time then it is clear this is just a case of having a fight for the sake of it. Disgraceful behaviour from employees of a public (can't be fired) monopoly (no competition).
:(
This is the prime example of people only hearing one side of the story...Quote:
Originally Posted by pete
I've yet to hear or read a clear explanation of any real justification for a strike.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
Several parties with an interest have tried. Either they're all autistic, or there's bugger all justification for a strike by my standards.
I fully expected someone to counter the suggestion that the union wanted extra 5 minutes (i still can't believe this could be the issue) to get into & out of town but I am still waiting... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by John83
It could be that the union in this particular depot not happy with concessions given previously but this does not justify the strike & those issues seems trivial. I think Management did not want to back down probably on the give an inch take a mile principle. If the union had such a strong case why did workers in other depots not join them on strike?
For what it is worth I think driving a bus in Dublin is a had job (traffic, pedestrians, bicycles etc...) but that is irrelevant.
The media in this country is only echoing what the private sector workers know to be the truth. What we got at Dublin Bus last week was a window into the surreal culture within the CIE unions and it was even more deranged than any of us even imagined.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
It's not a right-wing conspiricy - it's the Irish taxpayer not being made a sucker by repeats of Strumpet City and thinking we have to give up our salary for the lads in in CIE unions because "it's what Big Jim would of wanted".
and now we have it starting again in the ESB. Guess who organises the unions in that semi-state? Brendan Ogle the insane Leninist who almost destroyed the rail network with the ILDA strike in 2000. He is also a massive hero within SIPTU and the Labour Party and he is a complete fruitcake. CIE unions was where he learn all this, because his screwball version of greedy socialism is the norm within CIE unions. This is why they followed him and were willing to destory our national rail network - some "public transport professionals" eh! :rolleyes:
I work to pay my bills, not to take care of psychotic cultures within the CIE unions and everyone I know feels the same. Therefore the media is echoing this perfectly understandable feeling among "the workers"...(the real ones that is, not the semi-state type Liberty Hall exclusively represents)
The days of SIPTU and Liberty Hall hoping that a few bars from Christy Moore (millionaire socialist), or Brendan Gleeson (millionaire socialist) screaming in a psychotic rage on the Late Late being a determining factor in private sector workers donating 50%+ to support the astounding muppetry in the NBRU are over. People in the private sector want to work hard and keep most of their wages and not hand it over to them greedy, delusional, selfish creeps in Harristown garage and the rest of the NBRU madhouse.
Here is a basic exercise in reality:
Compare how good the Luas is, compared to the DART. Both are trains, both urban rapid transit. Everybody loves the Luas and wants more lines, everybody hates the DART - the only difference, one is controlled by the CIE unions and one isn't.
Case Closed and roll on the Metro.
I like the DART.
What's wrong with the DART?
They are not the ones deliberately wrecking public services so that they can justify privatisation! Its the employers in this country who have been out of control for far too long, its about time the unions started getting Militant. Public sector workers have been signing away their rights for years now for a paltry return. Its time to draw a line in the sand. this was not a trivial matter. If so why would a workforce, the majority of whom were not directly affected by the new arrangements have gone out on strike so close to Christmas? The new scheduling arrangements are the thin end of a wedge. Management will demand more and more concessions now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good
However if you choose to buy the bulls1t that spews forth from the billionaire owned media who's mates just happen to be trying to get their greasy palms on public services then thats your prerogative.
Time for a three little pigs approach.
Not by the hair of my chinny chin chin. Stand up and Fight!
http://www.socialistparty.net/pdf/te...s12-11-07.html
I'll take it you don't travel on it during the rush hours in the morning and the eveningQuote:
Originally Posted by pineapple stu
On the comparison between the LUAS and the DART, they both get Public money. One has private money aswell.
On the state of public transport in Dublin - it is only subsidised to 5% of its running costs - the privately run London tube is subsidised to the tune of 35% of its running costs by the government. Public transport in spain is recieves subsidies of around 50% of its running costs. So you see, in comparison Irish public transport is GROSSLY UNDERFUNDED! When you look at it that way you can not deny that CIE workers actually do a decent job with the resources they are given.
I'm a regular user of public transport. Its not always perfect. however its better than my experiences of privatised public transport in Britain. The answer is not privatisation or scapegoating of CIE workers - the answer is a properly funded public transport system that is controlled by the workers and customers of CIE services, not appointed bureaucrats who travel around in chauffeur driven Mercs.
I travel on it during rush hours in the morning and the evening.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
And you think being squashed into a non air conditioned carriage like a sardine, with people jabbing you in the ribs at every turn (thats of course assuming that people can actually move their arms at this stage) with more and more people pilling on at each stop isn't the worst part of your day?Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
It would depend on what kind of a day I'm having. Some days everything goes so well that a quick trip across the city might be the worst thing in it but generally I don't get worked up about little things like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Little things like being charged for the pleasure of a public transport system modelled on that of New Delhi? Or little things like watching people leave old men and women and pregnant ladies stand whilst they and others turn a blind eye to their horror show manners?Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
Yes, they are two examples of things I don't get worked up about. I'm worried that if I did, I might start blaming the employment status of the train driver for the rudeness of passengers not giving up their seats, which would clearly be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
Eh, Brendan Ogle is a hero in Liberty Hall and with SIPTU? You do realise that ILDA/ Ogle broke away from SIPTU and he's now ATGWU which isn't anything to do with SIPTU?Quote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good
The NBRU are not even ICTU affiliated let along some how part of some mythical SIPTU/Liberty Hall consipiracy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good
LUAS is actually a SIPTU closed shop - delighted it's working for you so well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boh_So_Good
I agree, however getting worked about the loss of community in society and of decency in ordinary people is no small thing in my eyes, and can't be dismissed as something that you shouldn't get worked up about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Student Mullet
I wholeheartedly concur with that sentiment. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
As soon as norms of behaviour stop becoming, well, norms then society is sliding down a slippery slope. I'm not entirely sure, however, whether the solution lies in publicly barracking those who neglect common decency or preaching the gospel on foot.ie. Whichever, I'm part of a two man crusade to do something about it, which in all honesty I think I would find to be more fulfilling, and who knows maybe even more important, than spending time campaigning for worker's rights, for if we can somehow get society to embrace the Amalgamated Union of Good Unselfish Sociable Talents' core values of respect, decency and above all compassion then in turn industrial relations issues will be more amicably and satisfactorily resolved.
I hereby proudly announce the promulgation of AUGUST. (as in the word, not the month ;))
All part of the same pot as people hating unions. Afterall, Trade Unions are made up of normal working people. The attitude today prevails that they must be smashed so that companies can run rough shod over the workers so the few owners/ shareholders/ managers can get richer while the worker has his terms and conditions peed on. It directly correlates to how ordinary people treat each other - every person for themselves; I'm alright jack get the fook off my ladder.Quote:
Originally Posted by jebus
I agree again, I'm all for Unions having influence, and can't understand anyone who doesn't own national and multinational companies being against them. I remember SIPTU nailing the Omniplex chain to the wall when I worked there seven years ago for the appalling way they treated their staff and I'm as grateful now as I was then that there is someone around that the worker can go to when they are being treated that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Macy
All power to AUGUST! (nice name by the way Hoop, you've outplayed the best of us yet again!)