Will Staunton be our Bertie Vogts

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21/10/2007, 10:03 PM
NeilMcD

Will Staunton be our Bertie Vogts

I know we are at our lowest ebb at the moment but I am actually happier now than I have been at any time since the 2-2 draw with Slovakia as I am pretty confident that we are in the last day of the Staunton reign. I was just wondering does anybody think that the Staunton years will be looked back on in the same way the Scots look back on the Vogts era. A disaster in managment but with a lot of young players given caps in silly positions but getting international experience before they were ready. All we need now is a Walter Smith or Alex McLeish.
21/10/2007, 10:08 PM
DmanDmythDledge

I feel that Staunton has left us in a good position for the next campaign despite the terrible performances. He has only had minimal improvement as a manager so has to go so a decent incumbent can deliver on the potential the team has.
21/10/2007, 10:18 PM
Billsthoughts

i think he is more our carlos alberto.....
22/10/2007, 7:09 AM
CollegeTillIDie

Tuff Paddy

Good reality check their bub. Shows how insular and Anglo/Scots centric some of our posters are on foot.ie
22/10/2007, 9:31 AM
NeilMcD

Sorry I think you have missed the point of my original post. Of course I know Vogts record both as a player and as a manager with the Germans. I am more talking about the legacy that Vogts left and that Staunton is going to leave and how it might work out for us in the future.

If you think I am insular College Till I Die wont dont you say it rather than make a vague attack on my football knowledge.

Vogts was ridiculed in Scotland and by the Scottish media and in the end by the players but he capped an awful lot of players some of whom who are now the backbone of the Scottish team which is going through a mini revivial at the moment.

They have done this by getting in a good manager twice who can bring out the best in a group of average international players and a few really good ones.

Of course Vogts had a far better record than Staunton, as Stauntons only record was his 1980s copy of the Anfield Rap. However both had shocking reigns of both Scotland and Ireland respectively and I am asking the question will we now react in the same way the Scots did or willl we keep going down.
22/10/2007, 10:12 AM
Billsthoughts

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Of course Vogts had a far better record than Staunton, as Stauntons only record was his 1980s copy of the Anfield Rap. However both had shocking reigns of both Scotland and Ireland respectively and I am asking the question will we now react in the same way the Scots did or willl we keep going down.

no way ya came up with that on your own Neil.......:D

anyways...Vogts did actually get scotland to a play off and won the first leg in hampden one nil against the dutch. second leg went west but still better than staunton.
22/10/2007, 10:19 AM
drinkfeckarse

I've already said here at least once that Stan is our equivalent to Vogts in his Scotland reign. Both never knew their best team or some of their players best positions and have almost comedic value.
22/10/2007, 10:35 AM
NeilMcD

Quote:

Originally Posted by Billsthoughts

no way ya came up with that on your own Neil.......:D

anyways...Vogts did actually get scotland to a play off and won the first leg in hampden one nil against the dutch. second leg went west but still better than staunton.

Look Vogts has a better record than Staunton no matter which way you look at it but I dont think anybody can deny that there are a lot of similarities with the two reigns.

By the way Scotland getting to the play off was a lot like Mc Carthy getting to the playoff in 1998. The group was so easy that they could not help themselves despite ****ing up on the way.
22/10/2007, 10:39 AM
Billsthoughts

At the end of the day who cares about some ****hole backwater of a British colony. too parochial and small minded a province to ever take to a an outsider.
22/10/2007, 10:41 AM
NeilMcD

Thats a terrible thing to say about Ireland Bill.
22/10/2007, 12:28 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

I know we are at our lowest ebb at the moment but I am actually happier now than I have been at any time since the 2-2 draw with Slovakia as I am pretty confident that we are in the last day of the Staunton reign. I was just wondering does anybody think that the Staunton years will be looked back on in the same way the Scots look back on the Vogts era. A disaster in managment but with a lot of young players given caps in silly positions but getting international experience before they were ready. All we need now is a Walter Smith or Alex McLeish.

i think u have 2 look at it from 2 ways

1) vogts was a good manager - but wat he inherited in the scottish team was crap - nothing there ,nothing coming through at the time

2)stan - not a good manager - but in fairness to the fella - the amount of youngsters he bought through and gave experience to,well this i believe will stand us in great stead for wc2010 - provided john d and his muppets hire a manager worthy of managing their potential and getting them to play to their full potential
22/10/2007, 12:30 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Sorry I think you have missed the point of my original post. Of course I know Vogts record both as a player and as a manager with the Germans. I am more talking about the legacy that Vogts left and that Staunton is going to leave and how it might work out for us in the future.

If you think I am insular College Till I Die wont dont you say it rather than make a vague attack on my football knowledge.

Vogts was ridiculed in Scotland and by the Scottish media and in the end by the players but he capped an awful lot of players some of whom who are now the backbone of the Scottish team which is going through a mini revivial at the moment.

They have done this by getting in a good manager twice who can bring out the best in a group of average international players and a few really good ones.

Of course Vogts had a far better record than Staunton, as Stauntons only record was his 1980s copy of the Anfield Rap. However both had shocking reigns of both Scotland and Ireland respectively and I am asking the question will we now react in the same way the Scots did or willl we keep going down.

there was no legacy to leave - scotland were brutal - not even houdini could have done a job on them
22/10/2007, 12:31 PM
NeilMcD

Vogts did the same as Stan in that regard too brought through an unreal amount of players, one of my mates was expecting a call up it got so bad sometimes. But ifyou call enough players some of them are going to come good.
22/10/2007, 12:32 PM
NeilMcD

Quote:

Originally Posted by back of the net

there was no legacy to leave - scotland were brutal - not even houdini could have done a job on them

Sorry but Walter Smith took over straight away and with the same players got them organised and they beat Norway and Slovenia away from home and drew with Italy at home and then they went and won away to Lituania and then beat France at home.
22/10/2007, 12:36 PM
Dr. Ogba

you could also compare the spectacularly ill-advised "Bertie McVogts" comment at his first press-conference to Stan's "I'm the gaffur"....
22/10/2007, 12:55 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Sorry but Walter Smith took over straight away and with the same players got them organised and they beat Norway and Slovenia away from home and drew with Italy at home and then they went and won away to Lituania and then beat France at home.

thats a fair point on italy and france- but i think also those victories were more about scottish passion and being managed by a man who knew the scottish game and the players- not actually quality - plus werent half the scot players kickin off as they wanted a scottish manager when vogts was in charge

as for beating norway - well they were brutal then , worse than scotland imo

and didnt they lose to belarus under smiths reign towards the end of wc2006 campaign as well drawing with the faroes under vogts - just brutal players imo mate -

i think vogts got a bit of a bad deal
22/10/2007, 1:16 PM
NeilMcD

Sorry these brutal players are running Italy and France for qualifying so they cannot be that bad, and if they are brutal players it only proves my point that with a bit of organisation that you can go far in international football.

So what I am saying is that the Vogts and Staunton eras were very poor in terms of organisation and the ability to get the best out of the players. I think we can all agree on that

Secondly Staunton and Vogts capped a huge amount of players and played them out of position and the players did not know what they were doing under.

So finally can we now get a manager in who can do what Smith did and what McLeish has added to and get Ireland organised and playing with passion and with a game plan and therefore our results may improve.

Smith and McLeish have both proved that if you organise your players well and play to your virtues and play with some passion and organisation that you can punch above your weight at international level.

On a final note, you may laugh at Norway away, but we have not beaten a team away from home anywhere near as good as Norway or Slovenia in recent time.
22/10/2007, 1:39 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Sorry these brutal players are running Italy and France for qualifying so they cannot be that bad, and if they are brutal players it only proves my point that with a bit of organisation that you can go far in international football.

So what I am saying is that the Vogts and Staunton eras were very poor in terms of organisation and the ability to get the best out of the players. I think we can all agree on that

Secondly Staunton and Vogts capped a huge amount of players and played them out of position and the players did not know what they were doing under.

So finally can we now get a manager in who can do what Smith did and what McLeish has added to and get Ireland organised and playing with passion and with a game plan and therefore our results may improve.

Smith and McLeish have both proved that if you organise your players well and play to your virtues and play with some passion and organisation that you can punch above your weight at international level.

On a final note, you may laugh at Norway away, but we have not beaten a team away from home anywhere near as good as Norway or Slovenia in recent time.

i said scotland were brutal when vogts took over - they were - vogts had F**k all talent to work with as well as having to deal with player revolts because he was not scottish -there is no doubting that they have developed into a stabilzed team and for that smith and mcleish have to be highly commended

vogts was a good manager and to compare him with staunton is bloody ludicrious

stauntons playing players out of position was down to bad management - vogts doing it was more doing to having a bad pool when he started in 2002 - that was nearly 6 years ago - so u comparing that scottish side to the current setup is baffling - scotland have better players now as well as the ones who bertie introduced , they have gained invaluable experience

i never once said that u cant achieve success from an average pool provided u have a manager who has a clue - smith and mccleish take a bow

i dont recall anywhere in my last text where i laughed at norway - i said they were brutal - they were - good for them that can beat some teams away - wales beat slovakia away - they are still brutal though
22/10/2007, 1:51 PM
NeilMcD

You have totaly misunderstood what I was trying to say. I am comparing the two reigns of Scotland and Ireland. Vogts was a disaster at Scotland, and the players did not know what he wanted from them. There were numerous times when the players were shouting at the touchline looking for guidance or tactics cause the whole thing was an organisation shambles. Does that remind you of anything.

There are a lot of similarities between the two reigns. You are trying to say that Vogts was blameless from the Scottish debacle but if you ask any Tartan army guys they will tell you he was a shambles, in the same way that Irish fans will talk about Staunton. That is not to say that Vogts is not a better manager than Staunton but during his time at Scotland he lost the plot.

Walter Smith took over from Vogts and straight away he got decent results with the team and they looked organised again. So this idea of now and 6 years ago is rubbish. Smith did it straight away with them. They did not get amazing results but they showed with a bit of organisation and passion that you can compete against midranking international teams away from home.

However in addition to this Vogts capped an awful lot of players and played an awful lot of players out of postion. This is very similar to Ireland. This was a disaster at the time for Scotland but they are seeing the benefits of it now. The question I am asking is, can Ireland reap the benefits of Staunton blooding lots of young players too early in the same way the Scots have.

Basically does every cloud have a silver lining.

For the last and final time I am not comparing Vogts and Staunton as managers as Vogts is a much better manager than Staunton as he won Euro 96.
22/10/2007, 2:01 PM
back of the net

Will Staunton be our Bertie Vogts

this implies u are comparing

i never said he was blameless - but he wasnt totally at fault

the scottish players played for smith and mccleish - why??

cos they are scottish and they didnt warm to vogts style off football

they could have beaten brazil for all i care but imo they were brutal and they still are brutal when it comes to player pool
22/10/2007, 2:04 PM
NeilMcD

Ok I hope we are brutal so and beat Brazil and win the World Cup, but if you say we are brutal then it must be right. Who needs results anyway as long as we have the opinions of people on foot.ie to tell us who is good and who is bad.
22/10/2007, 2:12 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by NeilMcD

Ok I hope we are brutal so and beat Brazil and win the World Cup, but if you say we are brutal then it must be right. Who needs results anyway as long as we have the opinions of people on foot.ie to tell us who is good and who is bad.

look - u asked a question -"Will Staunton be our Bertie Vogts "

u asked for opinions - i gave mine

"Who needs results anyway as long as we have the opinions of people on foot.ie to tell us who is good and who is bad" - if thats the way u feel then dont ask other posters there opinion

i think scotland have crap players but a good manager - i dont think staunton is our vogts

u disagree

ive no no intention of arguing about it mate - we shall call a ceasefire on this one
22/10/2007, 3:27 PM
Billsthoughts

He has a bet on to get as many threads about scotland into the Ireland forum as possible. there is no point arguing with him.
22/10/2007, 3:47 PM
NeilMcD

Did not realise you hated the Scots so much Bill.
22/10/2007, 8:02 PM
hamburg paul

Berti(vogts)& Stan

Fellas youse are missing the point !the only thing they both had in common was their command of the english language(NONE)!
22/10/2007, 8:13 PM
co. down green

I've cancelled Brady's membership of our supporters club :)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7056096.stm
22/10/2007, 8:38 PM
back of the net

Quote:

Originally Posted by hamburg paul

Fellas youse are missing the point !the only thing they both had in common was their command of the english language(NONE)!

hahaha - valid point
22/10/2007, 8:43 PM
mypost

Quote:

Originally Posted by back of the net

in fairness to the fella - the amount of youngsters he bought through and gave experience to,well this i believe will stand us in great stead for wc2010 - provided john d and his muppets hire a manager worthy of managing their potential and getting them to play to their full potential

There's the right way to bring young players through and the wrong way, and Stan has of course, brought them through the wrong way. It's straight out of the Souness manual, to throw them all in en masse immediately, which in turn leads to bad results. Bringing young players into the senior side, club or international, takes time. And you bring one or two players in at any given time, so they can learn from the more experienced players there. You don't throw out the likes of Lee Carsley, because he's not a teenager. You replace him with a talented youngster of proven potential, on a phased basis.

Under the Souness model, (which Staunton was part of), Liverpool went from league winners to 8th in 4 years. Under Staunton, we're going the same way.