Domestic soccer and our International team

The Indo today nicely printed an-email I sent them re: our international performances and the lack of support for the LOI.

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Go Monday September 17 2007

I would like to take issue with the most recent outburst of disillusionment from Ireland's soccer faithful.

Nobody in their right mind is going to claim that we are where we want to be; but we are were we deserve to be.

The Irish public demand that our international team and management be up there with the big boys of the international game. We should have beaten the Czechs, I'm told. We have no divine right to do so, however. And no logical reason to think we should be able to.

If one looks at the nations that have the best soccer teams, you see one connection between them. Any nation that does well in international football has a well-supported national league.

This is indisputable.

Extra government funding and higher attendances allow clubs to invest in better youth development structures and to create soccer academies.

The only way Ireland can ever be as good as the likes of Germany and the Czech Republic is by investing in the domestic side of things. Unfortunately, that means Irish people supporting their local sides instead of splashing their cash on Premiership teams and Celtic.

If Irish people really want this nation to be represented well on an international stage, then they must afford their patronage to their local sides.

Only when the Irish soccer fan's time and money is going to the likes of Tolka Park or Turner's Cross can we really claim any right to be beating nations who actually support soccer in their own country.

Mark Phillips,
Newbridge,
Co Kildare


I'm just wondering what your opinions are. Is it not true that Irish soccer cannot compete well on an international stage if people don't support the League here? Look at all the sides that are in our group. Germany, Czach Republic and Slovakia will probably finish above us. All three have far better supported domestic leagues and thus don't rely on foreign clubs to develop their players and play them. The nations going to finish below us are the ones with worst supported and ranked leagues; Cyprus, San Marino and Wales. There is a direct coralation here, and one that alot of barstoolers in Ireland would rather ignore. If one puts how well supported the leagues of the various clubs in our group are, you will see that the goup will probably finish with the best leagues on top, and the worst at the bottom. It's easy to say that it's the Leagues fault, but the foundation is there for us to have a strong domestic league, and if people throw their weight behind it, it will be one to be proud of. If things keep going the way they are, then don't expect us to be relying on bad English players claiming Irish nationalisty to see us through for the forseeable future.

Irish soccer needs the investment of the people to be able to compete at any level.

Would love to agree but can't. Look at Slovakia, the Czechs and Germany. They all have bigger poplulations than San Marino, Cyprus and Wales. That's the key.

I don't think the "we must develop our own players" is neccessary for a successful international team. I'd like it to happen but look at Brazil and Argentina. How many of their international players play with, and were developed by, clubs in their own country.

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Originally Posted by barney

Would love to agree but can't. Look at Slovakia, the Czechs and Germany. They all have bigger poplulations than San Marino, Cyprus and Wales. That's the key.

I don't think the "we must develop our own players" is neccessary for a successful international team. I'd like it to happen but look at Brazil and Argentina. How many of their international players play with, and were developed by, clubs in their own country.

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Barney,

Basically all the Brazilian/Argentina players etc were developed domestically. There are odd exceptions such as Messi, but they are a rarity.

They may no longer play there, but it was their formative performances in the domestic competitions that brings them to the attention of European sides.

Investing in your domestic league would only bring you so far. I'm afraid a country of the ROI's size doesn't have the population to sustain a top 10 side in the long term, so the best you can hope for is sporadic periods of success. Chucking money at clubs which already overspend is not going to magic up top quality players.

I also could not agree more with barney on Brazil and Argentina. Their leagues are dreadfully supported, yet they have unquestionably had long-term periods of success, down to a combination of promoting and maintaining football's status as a #1 sport in those countries, coaching their youth players in a way that will enable them to compete technically, and realising the potential of exporting players to other countries.

If you want an example closer to home, look no further than the Czech team that you just played, and their past success which has been sustained. The majority of their major players play outside of their country and their league commands less support than League One on average, and only just higher than League Two.

And what were to happen if we finished third in this group. It's not entirely unfeasible, and if we did it'd blow your whole theory away. We have a league that averages under 300, yet that hasn't stopped us from producing good players in the past and we will continue to produce good players in the future.

Nice letter Mark, but I think you're remiss in accepting the skewed priorities of RepublicOfIreland FC fanboys. A strong domestic game is its own reward. It would be reflected in the national team's performances, but that's very much a by-product. Personally I don't know how anyone can derive pride/pleasure from the performances of eleven British-based players with no real footballing connection to Ireland. RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football. How people feel any affinity with it is beyond me.

Fair play to the notoriously anti EL paper for printing it.

Sheridan how did you have any affinity for the parasitic entity that was CHF? Horses for courses my man.

Cymro the point is the Czech national side always has about half their players playing in their domestic league and the other half started their careers at home.


KOH

The English system is failing to produce quality English players, despite the far greater numbers going into it, yet we expect it to also produce quality Irish players. We need to invest in developing our own players, and that must mean through a domestic football structure (and that includes a total change in role of the so called nursery clubs). The money simply isn't there because Irish people fail to support their own league. Yes Sheridan, a strong domestic league should be it's own reward, but the people that hop on planes and ferries have to appreciate the knock on effect of their actions. We must stand on our own two feet footballing wise - that means Irish football fans supporting Irish football.

A strong domestic set up should complement, not replace the British league clubs. To an extent it's already happening, Doyle, Long, Ward, Forde, Hoolihan, Murphy and a few others. Very long way to go though.

Giles' quote from the late 70s in the eircom league thead rings true today.

If a few clubs could qualify for UEFA Cup proper at the same time then it'd be interesting to see the local reaction. Getting from here to there is the hard part.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football.

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Yes, it's a parasite but it does reflect at least one part of Irish football. It reflects the schools set up and the underage junior set up. It just doesn't represent senior domestic football.

Just look at the U17 team that played last weekend. 9 of the XI play in Britain, the other 2 play for junior clubs, not LOI clubs. Of the 9 UK starters all would have been spotted playing in Ireland. As would most of the senior international XI at some stage.

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Originally Posted by Stuttgart88

Just look at the U17 team that played last weekend. 9 of the XI play in Britain, the other 2 play for junior clubs, not LOI clubs. Of the 9 starters all would have been spotted playing in Ireland. As would most of the senior international XI at some stage.

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Yeah, but how many will go on to represent Ireland at full international level, and of those how many successfully? You could say the same about Kerr's youth teams, but most of those ended up back in the League of Ireland after failing to be brought on by the English clubs. The "Nursery Clubs" are part of the problem - is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

I wouldnt say the Argentine and Brazilian leagues are dreadfully supported. I can't speak too much about the Brazilian league as I've only ever seen it on TV, but the Argentine league is very well supported. I've seen a few matches there in stadiums and they've usually been fairly full. The fans are passionate and generate a lot of noise.

In my opinion the Argentine league is easily amongst the top 10 in the world in terms of level (skill) of play. Even though a lot of players leave to got o Europe, there is always another batch waiting to join. I would also argue that the really big teams in Argentina and Brazil (like Boca Juniors, Grêmio, River Plate, Racing Club, Palmerias, Flamengo etc) would be more than a match for the big-time-charlies of the European game (the likes of Man Utd, Barcelona, Real Madrid, Milan etc)...

In fact I would disagree with the precis of the initial email. I don't think a well supported home league is vital to sucess in international football. I think that was more true in the past than it is now when EU leagues can field players from anywhere within the EU. If you take the Belgian league, it has reasonably strong teams with good european pedigree, but the Belgian national team is not very strong. Similarly the Russian league is very well supported, has lots of cash to spend on players (look at Dinamo, Zenit and CSKA Moscow's recent signings) and has been doing ok in terms of European Competition. Yet only very recently has the Russian national team looked like a serious force to be reckoned with.

On the other hand compare this to the situation in the former Yugoslavia. The old Yugoslav league used to be one of the strongest in Europe. In their hayday teams like Hadjuk Split, Crvena Zvezda, Veles Mostar and Partizan used to be able to compete against many European sides. Since the breakup the leagues have got weaker and weaker. Matches hardly ever sell out (with the exceptions of the massive derbies (eg Hadjuk v Dinamo Zg, Belgrade Derby, Mostar Derby). Yet the Croatian national team is consistently strong and the Serbian one has been getting stronger of late. Both these countries would destroy us over 90 mins home or away. I think their key strength lies in the following point. Most players in the former Yugoslavia are sold abroad from medium level domestic clubs to medium level EU clubs before they are "world class". Players like Pranjic, Mrdja and Lazovic have joined small clubs in Holland, Zigic and Bosko Jankovic moved to mediocre clubs in Spain.

I think having lots of players playing in clubs all across Europe is what sets Serbia and Croatia apart from us in terms of National team development. That and they have good managers with a tactical understanding of the game and competent Football Associations.

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Originally Posted by Macy

Yeah, but how many will go on to represent Ireland at full international level, and of those how many successfully? You could say the same about Kerr's youth teams, but most of those ended up back in the League of Ireland after failing to be brought on by the English clubs. The "Nursery Clubs" are part of the problem - is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

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Not really sure, but Given, Dunne, McShane, Reid, Keane, Doyle, Long, Keogh and others from last week would all have had at least some grounding in Ireland. I'm just saying that you can't argue a complete disassociation from domestic football. Preferably some of these guys would stay at home for longer but that's a slightly different argument.

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Originally Posted by Macy

is it really about player development, or is it about trophies, names on club house plaques, how many they've sent over etc?

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Nail on head, it's all about trophies and not player development.

Some of these 'successful' nursery clubs discard players each year as they entice new 'better' ones in.

I know of one who won a national competition last season brought in new players and dropped those who helped them achieve the success. None of the imports were local and by that I mean within a 10 mile radius of this so called local club

We do have some good nursery clubs, but they're not the ones that spring to mind or appear in brackets after a player's name in underage squads. Those clubs are basically halfway houses to the British game or eL. For the most part the players at those "famous nursery clubs" have reached a stage in their development beyond which they won't progress until they graduate to senior football and derive very little of value from their stay.

There are only three Czech-based players in the czech squad (admittedly I'm going on wikipedia's information, but still) and none of them are major players.

This is a response to NY Hoop, by the way.

Also, edmundo, I meant that the Brazilian/Argentine leagues are dreadfully supported relative to the standing of their international teams in world football. In Argentina apart from Boca and River Plate very few clubs break 10,000 on a regular basis. Brazil is even worse with an average attendance some 4,000 lower than the SPL.

Went to a Czech league game at the weekend. Slavia Praha v Banik Ostrava. First versus second; two teams with decent recent records. 6,400 there - Slavia's highest crowd of the season, each paying in 50Kc, or about E2. I was wondering how it is that clubs in that league can so comfortably defeat eL sides (Liberec v Rovers and Sparta v Cork spring to mind), and even in Slavia's case qualify for thr CL group stages.

Granted, qualifying for the groups is part of the answer, but I think the half time game was more important. Kids of about ten playing a strict eight-a-side game - even though both had nine players - on a good big pitch and with a strict formation. If a player made a tackle, he played it forward and went back into position. No swarm formations like you see at half time games here (and I've played in the fanzine half-time games, so I'm including my team mates in that criticism. I play in goals, so am exempt. :) ). Even from a ten minute look, it seemed that style must surely benefit the kids more.

fair play Philly - i agree with the general thrust of your email. In fact i posted something very similar on the Czech match thread directly after the game. Here are a few simple ideas that could be implemented by the government that would make an impression on the domestic game in a matter of 5 years.

1) Government grants issued to clubs who submit detailed plans and costings on improvements to facilities. Grants are only used to improve facilities and this is monitored by some form of FAI employed club auditor.

2) Treat team sponsorship almost like charitable donations and issue big tax breaks on such investment. That way the private sector has a huge incentive to actually start investing larger sums in domestic football at little actual cost. This money can be used then at the clubs discretion - wages, signings, marketing etc

3) Establish an Ajax style national academy that identifies and attracts the top players at the youngest age and develops their basic skills and techniques. At age 16/17/18 a class graduates and the players are assigned to domestic club teams (maybe like the drafts in the NFL). If nothing else it makes the situation more glamorous and could quite easily be developed enough to grab the public attention.

These are just 3 basic steps that would improve the quality of domestic football in almost every regard. When this leads to greater success in europe and so on the crowds will come.

Furthermore we are pledging to keep our talent on these shores during the most critical phase of their footballing and just general physical and mental development.

The best players will still move abroad but, importantly, they will do so for decent fees, something that is still not really happening. The academy will have developed these kids into something more than just an imitation of engish footballers and the Reals, Barcas and Milans of this world could soon start sniffing around.

It really is a win-win situation for all concerned. Domestic football wins, the FAI wins and the international team wins.

Cymro, you are missing the point of what is being said - investment comes first, improvements begin and crowds will naturally follow. Im surprised that a welsh man cannot see the benefit of this considering the anomaly that is Welsh club football.

If the FAI and government continues to just put money into what they term "grass roots" football they are just grooming these lads to be picked up at a ridiculously young age by a british club that just doesnt care about either irish football or the player himself.

Was it Blatter that said at that awards ceremony a few years back that we will never have great success until we stop sending our kids abroad at 14/15/16? How right he was.

Historically people may say that english football has been good to us, and it has undoubtedly but due to the nature of football today this has come to its natural end. There are 2 main reasons for this.

1) a great deal of our success was achieved on the back of 2nd generation irishmen. Well emigration has declined and we can no longer rely on this "recruitment" to the same extent we did.

2) the great influx of foreigners into english football means that there is little opportunity for even the best young irish players to break into the first team of the big clubs. This will not change. As a result, players lose interest or drop down the leagues and return home to ireland where they may or may not play football. The players that make the breakthrough usually do so for low end Premiership teams or Championship sides. This means that our players are not testing themselves against the CL or UEFA teams on a weekly basis. In turn this affects the international side as the tactics required to compete with the best international sides must be learnt during match week. The focus for a manager during match week should be primarily motivation, team-building and set pieces.

I dont hate the Premiership and im not an eL martyr. I just think the time has come for the FAI to start using common sense and seeing that just a few changes could make a huge difference in the coming years. Even more importantly, we can control our own destiny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Philly

If one looks at the nations that have the best soccer teams, you see one connection between them. Any nation that does well in international football has a well-supported national league.

This is indisputable.

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Indisputable???

What about err...England ....Spain.....

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Cymro

Also, edmundo, I meant that the Brazilian/Argentine leagues are dreadfully supported relative to the standing of their international teams in world football. In Argentina apart from Boca and River Plate very few clubs break 10,000 on a regular basis. Brazil is even worse with an average attendance some 4,000 lower than the SPL.

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Like I say im not too sure about Brazil, but I'm very suprised by that on Argentina.

Here is a pic I took of San Lorenzo v Arsenal di Sarandi last June.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5958/dscf0035sd3.jpg

As you can see it was a full house, and this was taken 2 hours before kick-off during the youth team warm up game.

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Originally Posted by Sheridan

Nice letter Mark, but I think you're remiss in accepting the skewed priorities of RepublicOfIreland FC fanboys. A strong domestic game is its own reward. It would be reflected in the national team's performances, but that's very much a by-product. Personally I don't know how anyone can derive pride/pleasure from the performances of eleven British-based players with no real footballing connection to Ireland. RepublicOfIreland FC is a parasitic entity which wouldn't exist without the Premiership and doesn't reflect Irish football. How people feel any affinity with it is beyond me.

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Finally, we find common ground:eek:. Spot on, Sheridan.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Like I say im not too sure about Brazil, but I'm very suprised by that on Argentina.

Here is a pic I took of San Lorenzo v Arsenal di Sarandi last June.

http://img103.imageshack.us/img103/5958/dscf0035sd3.jpg

As you can see it was a full house, and this was taken 2 hours before kick-off during the youth team warm up game.

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Well, here's where I got my data from. Average of 17,363 for the whole league. I know it's wikipedia but that looks fairly reliable to me.

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Originally Posted by tricky_colour

Indisputable???

What about err...England ....Spain.....

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England and Spain both have strong, well supported (and funded) domestic leagues. They also happen to have far better teams than we have. What's your point?

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

Went to a Czech league game at the weekend. Slavia Praha v Banik Ostrava. First versus second; two teams with decent recent records. 6,400 there - Slavia's highest crowd of the season, each paying in 50Kc, or about E2. I was wondering how it is that clubs in that league can so comfortably defeat eL sides (Liberec v Rovers and Sparta v Cork spring to mind), and even in Slavia's case qualify for thr CL group stages.

Granted, qualifying for the groups is part of the answer, but I think the half time game was more important. Kids of about ten playing a strict eight-a-side game - even though both had nine players - on a good big pitch and with a strict formation. If a player made a tackle, he played it forward and went back into position. No swarm formations like you see at half time games here (and I've played in the fanzine half-time games, so I'm including my team mates in that criticism. I play in goals, so am exempt. :) ). Even from a ten minute look, it seemed that style must surely benefit the kids more.

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Surprised you havent mentioned how the game you were at went considering they are into the CL for the first time: http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...id=588369.html

If you had been to both Liberec games like we were you would see how they can easily dispatch us. Very experienced European campaigners, physically strong and technically superb. We had a good side back then but we knew we were in with the big boys. Granted we could have a got a scoreless draw at Richmond if it wasnt for our keeper at the time but we never looked like beating them.

Less than a year before we played them they beat Milan in the CL qualifiers: http://www.uefa.com/competitions/ucl...014/index.html

Skstu makes some very valid points. Good post. But we also need people to support their own clubs here not in a different country.


KOH

Quote:

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

On the other hand compare this to the situation in the former Yugoslavia. The old Yugoslav league used to be one of the strongest in Europe. In their hayday teams like Hadjuk Split, Crvena Zvezda, Veles Mostar and Partizan used to be able to compete against many European sides. Since the breakup the leagues have got weaker and weaker. Matches hardly ever sell out (with the exceptions of the massive derbies (eg Hadjuk v Dinamo Zg, Belgrade Derby, Mostar Derby). Yet the Croatian national team is consistently strong and the Serbian one has been getting stronger of late. Both these countries would destroy us over 90 mins home or away. I think their key strength lies in the following point. Most players in the former Yugoslavia are sold abroad from medium level domestic clubs to medium level EU clubs before they are "world class". Players like Pranjic, Mrdja and Lazovic have joined small clubs in Holland, Zigic and Bosko Jankovic moved to mediocre clubs in Spain.

I think having lots of players playing in clubs all across Europe is what sets Serbia and Croatia apart from us in terms of National team development. That and they have good managers with a tactical understanding of the game and competent Football Associations.

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I agree with you concerning their players being sold to teams all over Europe. However, you are being extremely dismissive of the former Yugoslavian Nations domestic leagues role in all this!

Of the entire current Croatian squad only only five players haven't been transfered out of the domestic league. These players are:

- Josip Simunic who was born in Australia
- The Kovac brothers who were born in Berlin
- Ivan Rakitic who was born in Switzerland
- Mladen Petric who was born in Bosnia but emigrated during the war (same as my girl who is also a croat)

6 players from the croatian league have featured during the current qualifying campaign, one of which, Luka Modric is an important player for them. Another thing I admire about them is that they do not allow themselves to be exploited. Man City payed Dinamo Zagreb £8million for Vedran Corluka; Portsmout paid Hadjuk Split £3.5million for Niko Kranjcar and most astonishingly of all Aston Villa paid £5.8million for Bosco Balaban. Reading paid 100,000euro (i think) for Kevin Doyle. Bit of a difference there I think! Not only do they not allow themselves to be exploited but in the case of Balaban, it was Dinamo who exploited Villa, lol.

All this with an average attendance of 3,150 per game last season in a country that is nowhere near as economically strong as the Republic of Ireland but with people and a diaspora that have serious pride and sports mad. Pretty impressive if you ask me!

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

Surprised you havent mentioned how the game you were at went

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0-0. Very poor game. Kind of takes away from my point! :p

Great atmosphere though.

Quote:

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3) Establish an Ajax style national academy that identifies and attracts the top players at the youngest age and develops their basic skills and techniques. At age 16/17/18 a class graduates and the players are assigned to domestic club teams (maybe like the drafts in the NFL). If nothing else it makes the situation more glamorous and could quite easily be developed enough to grab the public attention.

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This would certainly be preferable to each LOI/IL club bringing through their own players, throwing kids with talent in at the deep end at 15 to be kicked off the park by part time plasterers, when they should be developing skill levels and not playing a tremendous amount of football.

Again i think this would have to be agreed with and done jointly with the IFA to have the set up right. Especially with the IFA having jurisdiction over the milk cup

Perhaps with campuses around the country, Dublin, Belfast, Cork, Galway, and somewhere in the midlands. Longford would seem suitable as it is fairly central with a LOI club who have one of the better stadiums in the country.

UCD are establishing an academy next year, incidentally. I think Pete Mahon has said he doesn't like the term "academy", and it's going to be more aimed towards catering for whoever wants to play football in south Dublin and doing a bit of advertising for the club on the side, but it's a start at least. Obviously, anyone good enough will attract the interest of the senior side.

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Originally Posted by pineapple stu

UCD are establishing an academy next year, incidentally. I think Pete Mahon has said he doesn't like the term "academy", and it's going to be more aimed towards catering for whoever wants to play football in south Dublin and doing a bit of advertising for the club on the side, but it's a start at least. Obviously, anyone good enough will attract the interest of the senior side.

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As far as I know Derry are instigating their own football acadamy in conjunction with schools that will allow 16 kids+ to train each day as pros whilst studying. Hopefully this is the way forward.

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

If you had been to both Liberec games like we were you would see how they can easily dispatch us. Very experienced European campaigners, physically strong and technically superb. We had a good side back then but we knew we were in with the big boys. Granted we could have a got a scoreless draw at Richmond if it wasnt for our keeper at the time but we never looked like beating them.


Skstu makes some very valid points. Good post. But we also need people to support their own clubs here not in a different country.


KOH

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Sums it up NYH. Physically and Technically we can't matc a lot of tehse teams. We acn make p for it through organisation and heart, butat the end of the day it isn't enough.

There are also too many people out there encouraging kids into bad habits and not devoting enough time to technique. tThrowing a few cones down and letting them run around after a ball isn't doing much for them. Parents of youngsters playing don't understand that winning isn't everything at that age (up to 12 IMO) with the result that the kids get confused betwen the manager and their parents.I heard a parent abusing a manager of an u-11 team because they couldn'tplay the offside trap.:eek:

We're not up to it physically or technically and until the FAI'S policy of all coaches requiring a coaching badge isimplemented fully we'l continue to struggle.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NY Hoop

If you had been to both Liberec games like we were you would see how they can easily dispatch us. Very experienced European campaigners, physically strong and technically superb. We had a good side back then but we knew we were in with the big boys. Granted we could have a got a scoreless draw at Richmond if it wasnt for our keeper at the time but we never looked like beating them.


Skstu makes some very valid points. Good post. But we also need people to support their own clubs here not in a different country.


KOH

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Sums it up NYH. Physically and Technically we can't match a lot of these teams. We can make up for it through organisation and heart, but at the end of the day it isn't enough.

There are also too many people out there encouraging kids into bad habits and not devoting enough time to technique. Throwing a few cones down and letting them run around after a ball isn't doing much for them. Parents of youngsters playing don't understand that winning isn't everything at that age (up to 12 IMO) with the result that the kids get confused betwen the manager and their parents. I heard a parent abusing a manager of an u-11 team because they couldn't play the offside trap.:eek:

We're not up to it physically or technically and until the FAI'S policy of all coaches requiring a coaching badge is implemented fully we'l continue to struggle.

Which does, in fairness, kind of come back to the original point. At the moment, we're dependent on another country to develop our players from the age of about 14 or 15. We need to be able to have more of a say.

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Originally Posted by Bucky-O'Hare

I agree with you concerning their players being sold to teams all over Europe. However, you are being extremely dismissive of the former Yugoslavian Nations domestic leagues role in all this!

Of the entire current Croatian squad only only five players haven't been transfered out of the domestic league. These players are:

- Josip Simunic who was born in Australia
- The Kovac brothers who were born in Berlin
- Ivan Rakitic who was born in Switzerland
- Mladen Petric who was born in Bosnia but emigrated during the war (same as my girl who is also a croat)

6 players from the croatian league have featured during the current qualifying campaign, one of which, Luka Modric is an important player for them. Another thing I admire about them is that they do not allow themselves to be exploited. Man City payed Dinamo Zagreb £8million for Vedran Corluka; Portsmout paid Hadjuk Split £3.5million for Niko Kranjcar and most astonishingly of all Aston Villa paid £5.8million for Bosco Balaban. Reading paid 100,000euro (i think) for Kevin Doyle. Bit of a difference there I think! Not only do they not allow themselves to be exploited but in the case of Balaban, it was Dinamo who exploited Villa, lol.

All this with an average attendance of 3,150 per game last season in a country that is nowhere near as economically strong as the Republic of Ireland but with people and a diaspora that have serious pride and sports mad. Pretty impressive if you ask me!

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My point was the leagues in ex-Yug are not well financed or supported. I agree that Dinamo and Hajduk (by far the biggest clubs in Croatia) sell their players on for fair market value.

Btw, there have always been Bosnian (or Hercegovine) born Croats playing for the national team. Marijo Stanic was born in Sarajevo, Goran Juric born in Mostar, Kruno Jurcic in Ljubinski, Stejpan Tomas in Bugojno, Boris Zivkovic in Zivinice, Mario Tokic in Derventa.

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Originally Posted by Philly

England and Spain both have strong, well supported (and funded) domestic leagues. They also happen to have far better teams than we have. What's your point?

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Given the strength if their domestic leagues they have not done too well really. England won the World Cup once when they hosted it. They also came 4th once, as did Spain.

Anyway I don't have all the figures but I will quote you this:
"For top leagues, the Bundesliga has been number one for the last few years, edging out the English Premier League, humbling the Spanish Primera and leaving crap leagues like the Italy's Serie Ha-ha in the dust. "

However the 'crap Italian league' has produced 4 world cups to Germany's 3 and England's 1.

OK Italy may be well funded but then Greece won the last European Championships as have several 'lesser' nations. There is certaintly not a cast iron link between attendance/funding and performance(winning) in big competitions, especially if you are English :D. Compare English clubs records to their national sides record for example.

Compared to the size of their population Ireland do pretty well. I would like to see a table which showed FIFA ranking points divided by population size!! I reckon Ireland might be top!!!

Actually it wouldn't, Croatia would come top followed by Scotland (I was bored :rolleyes:) and the Scottish league seems to consist of just two teams, sometimes just one. Maybe we need a Scottish manger?

Yes it seems a national pride and enthusiam for sport are key ingrediants.

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Originally Posted by lofty9

As far as I know Derry are instigating their own football acadamy in conjunction with schools that will allow 16 kids+ to train each day as pros whilst studying. Hopefully this is the way forward.

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Cork City have a similar system up and running. It's run in Coláiste Stiofán Naofa, a 3rd Level PLC college by Liam Murphy who is one of the best talent spotters in the game (pity that he was a crap manager!). Shane Long would be the most famous player to have come through the system.

Players like Long, Daryl Murphy and Doyle have to be the blueprint. Develop at home and then if you're good enough make the move. Sending kids over to live in Britian and play ball is akin to slave labour IMO.

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Cork City have a similar system up and running. It's run in Coláiste Stiofán Naofa, a 3rd Level PLC college by Liam Murphy who is one of the best talent spotters in the game (pity that he was a crap manager!). Shane Long would be the most famous player to have come through the system.

Players like Long, Daryl Murphy and Doyle have to be the blueprint. Develop at home and then if you're good enough make the move. Sending kids over to live in Britian and play ball is akin to slave labour IMO.

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Isn't Cork's academy being run as a FAS scheme?

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Originally Posted by SÓC

Players like Long, Daryl Murphy and Doyle have to be the blueprint. Develop at home and then if you're good enough make the move. Sending kids over to live in Britian and play ball is akin to slave labour IMO.

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Definitely. Would be no harm for the FAI to take out short ads with each of these type of players encouragint hem to stay at home until they are old enough/good enough to move abroad(not necessarily the UK). Either in the programmes or on tv on matchdays. Would be better than those horrible "eh make it out to Stephen" eircom ads!

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Compared to the size of their population Ireland do pretty well. I would like to see a table which showed FIFA ranking points divided by population size!! I reckon Ireland might be top!!!

Actually it wouldn't, Croatia would come top followed by Scotland (I was bored :rolleyes:) and the Scottish league seems to consist of just two teams, sometimes just one. Maybe we need a Scottish manger?[/QUOTE]


But did you add in the GAA coefficient!!!!!No other country is plagued by that.At least not one that aspires to success!!!

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Originally Posted by cfdh_edmundo

Btw, there have always been Bosnian (or Hercegovine) born Croats playing for the national team. Marijo Stanic was born in Sarajevo, Goran Juric born in Mostar, Kruno Jurcic in Ljubinski, Stejpan Tomas in Bugojno, Boris Zivkovic in Zivinice, Mario Tokic in Derventa.

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I already knew that! Sure Corluka is also from Bosnia! The bottom line is that their domestic league has a vital role in the progression of their players thus contributing to the national team. The Croat league may not be as well supported as the premieship but it's bigger than here and no matter where you go around that country you won't be far away from a stall selling Hajuk and Dinamo merchandise.

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Originally Posted by shelbourne1904

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But did you add in the GAA coefficient!!!!!No other country is plagued by that.At least not one that aspires to success!!!

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What do you that we are the only country in Europe who have more than one popular sport? Basketball is massive all over Southern Europe, especially South East! Ice Hockey is also massive in many countries! Then theres the likes of handball and water polo which are no existant here.